Questions For 3abn Conservatives, from CA Options

[Clay]

You are right, Sarah. I check them nearly everyday, because you don't know who is going to be hosting. I really like the diversity on there. I just recently asked my sister about not seeing Paul and Jan, but I sure enjoy their guest hosts.

is that the lady with the big pink hair? Yep it is... she has a diversity of colors right there on her face and hair....

[watchbird]

I am not saying all that has been said about Danny is not true but, if he was/is all these things, why did God call him in the first place? Or do you all believe he wasn't called? From what I have read Danny has been like this from the beginning.....

There is a very real sense in which God calls everyone. That call is to leave their life of sin, follow Him, and become His representative. Not everyone responds to that call. And not everyone who claims to have had not only that general call, but some special call, is telling the truth.

Danny had a "track record" of being a con man, of looking for a way to make an easy buck, of taking advantage of others and "ripping them off" long before he claims to have had this "call of God" to this "special ministry". But it is "by their fruit ye shall know them". And one of the first "fruits" is that of repentance. And repentance always includes restitution. Looking back, where were the fruits of repentance and restitution at the time that Danny claims to have had this "vision" from God that appointed him, Danny, to this special work? If we look at the records, the official histories that have been written about Danny and 3ABN, do we find any mention of the kinds of repentance which bring forth restitution of the monies, goods, and reputations of those he had specifically "sinned against" in the past? I have found none. What we do find is a continuation of his same patterns of life that had earned him the reputation of being a "con man" in the past. And we find this great ministry that he claimed he was given in a vision by God being "validated" by "lying miracles"--that is to say by claiming "miracles" that in fact did not even happen, but were deliberately fabricated for the purpose of attracting the gullible.

I really don't think the question as to whether God called him in the first place is an appropriate one. The question is, if there was such a "call", how did Danny respond? Did he bring forth fruits--including those of conviction of specific sins in his own life, contrition for those, repentance from the harm he had brought to others, and restitution in so far as he was able for this harm? Were the old habits exchanged for new ones? Did he become a man of integrity and truthfulness? These and many more questions could and should be asked. And if the answer is always "no", then the answer is also "no" to question of whether he was "called of God" in the sense of being given any special "anointing" from God, and the answer is "no" to the question of whether he should continue to be considered a true representative of God and the one who "represents the SDA church to the world." The "face of Adventism" indeed. We may have those among us who exhibit the characteristics Danny has exhibited, but we are not as a whole group so degraded as to be fairly represented by Danny Shelton.

[simplysaved]

Steven, SHAME ON YOU!

On the serious side, those that know her state that she is truely an anointed woman and has one of the mosst beautiful spirit....she is very well thought of here (one of the major TBN studios is right outside of Goodlettsville, TN) .

is that the lady with the big pink hair? Yep it is... she has a diversity of colors right there on her face and hair....

[Chez]

There is a very real sense in which God calls everyone. That call is to leave their life of sin, follow Him, and become His representative. Not everyone responds to that call. And not everyone who claims to have had not only that general call, but some special call, is telling the truth.


I really don't think the question as to whether God called him in the first place is an appropriate one. The question is, if there was such a "call", how did Danny respond? Did he bring forth fruits--including those of conviction of specific sins in his own life, contrition for those, repentance from the harm he had brought to others, and restitution in so far as he was able for this harm? Were the old habits exchanged for new ones? Did he become a man of integrity and truthfulness? These and many more questions could and should be asked. And if the answer is always "no", then the answer is also "no" to question of whether he was "called of God" in the sense of being given any special "anointing" from God, and the answer is "no" to the question of whether he should continue to be considered a true representative of God and the one who "represents the SDA church to the world." The "face of Adventism" indeed. We may have those among us who exhibit the characteristics Danny has exhibited, but we are not as a whole group so degraded as to be fairly represented by Danny Shelton.

Don't forget that Samuel (God's prophet and servant) anointed Saul to be the King of Israel. However, Saul conducted himself in a less than anointed manner which seemed to begin when he (in his mind) was upstaged by David. He convinced people that David was out to kill him, which was not true. These accusations were spread abroad and people deemed David to be a criminal and that he should be executed for treason. In addition, these false accusations dominated Saul's mind to the point that he blatantly disobeyed God by not waiting on Samuel and later he visited the Witch of Endor after Samuel died. David was a man after God's own heart. Linda is a woman who truly loves God.

In my mind, there seems to be a parallel between Saul's experience/demise and Danny's experience/demise. I believe that Danny will self-destruct. God will get tired of this mess and put an end to this foolishness.

[princessdi]

Steve, you are WRONG, just WRONG for that!

is that the lady with the big pink hair? Yep it is... she has a diversity of colors right there on her face and hair....

[watchbird]

Don't forget that Samuel (God's prophet and servant) anointed Saul to be the King of Israel. However, Saul conducted himself in a less than anointed manner which seemed to begin when he (in his mind) was upstaged by David. He convinced people that David was out to kill him, which was not true. These accusations were spread abroad and people deemed David to be a criminal and that he should be executed for treason. In addition, these false accusations dominated Saul's mind to the point that he blatantly disobeyed God by not waiting on Samuel and later he visited the Witch of Endor after Samuel died. David was a man after God's own heart. Linda is a woman who truly loves God.

In my mind, there seems to be a parallel between Saul's experience/demise and Danny's experience/demise. I believe that Danny will self-destruct. God will get tired of this mess and put an end to this foolishness.

Before you put to much weight on the Saul/Danny parallel, it would be a good idea to look at their lives previous to the time of Saul's anointing as compared to Danny's before his self-proclaimed "call".

[Tammy]

QUOTE(Jvat @ Jul 27 2006, 12:52 PM)

Hey Uncle Sam, did God call Judas or did he just join the disciples? Did God really call Danny? And then there is also Saul whom God called as the King and yet he was a big disapointment!

This is what the Spirit of Prophecy says about Judas linking up with the disciples....

While Jesus was preparing the disciples for their ordination, one who had not been summoned urged his presence among them. It was Judas Iscariot, a man who professed to be a follower of Christ. He now came forward, soliciting a place in this inner circle of disciples. With great earnestness and apparent sincerity he declared, "Master, I will follow Thee whithersoever Thou goest." Jesus neither repulsed nor welcomed him, but uttered only the mournful words: "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay His head." Matt. 8:19, 20. Judas believed Jesus to be the Messiah; and by joining the apostles, he hoped to secure a high position in the new kingdom. This hope Jesus designed to cut off by the statement of His poverty. {DA 293.2}
The disciples were anxious that Judas should become one of their number. He was of commanding appearance, a man of keen discernment and executive ability, and they commended him to Jesus as one who would greatly assist Him in His work. They were surprised that Jesus received him so coolly. {DA 294.1}

I believe from reading this quote, that Judas just joined the disciples...."without being summoned."

[Clay]

This is what the Spirit of Prophecy says about Judas linking up with the disciples....



I believe from reading this quote, that Judas just joined the disciples...."without being summoned."

that is NOT what the bible says... Jesus said he called 12 and one was a devil....

John 6:67-71
(67) Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
(68) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
(69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
(70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
(71) He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Now.... who you gonna trust? (the adventist conundrum rears its head...)

[watchbird]

This is what the Spirit of Prophecy says about Judas linking up with the disciples....

While Jesus was preparing the disciples for their ordination, one who had not been summoned urged his presence among them. It was Judas Iscariot, a man who professed to be a follower of Christ. He now came forward, soliciting a place in this inner circle of disciples. With great earnestness and apparent sincerity he declared, "Master, I will follow Thee whithersoever Thou goest." Jesus neither repulsed nor welcomed him, but uttered only the mournful words: "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay His head." Matt. 8:19, 20. Judas believed Jesus to be the Messiah; and by joining the apostles, he hoped to secure a high position in the new kingdom. This hope Jesus designed to cut off by the statement of His poverty. {DA 293.2}
The disciples were anxious that Judas should become one of their number. He was of commanding appearance, a man of keen discernment and executive ability, and they commended him to Jesus as one who would greatly assist Him in His work. They were surprised that Jesus received him so coolly. {DA 294.1}

I believe from reading this quote, that Judas just joined the disciples...."without being summoned."

that is NOT what the bible says... Jesus said he called 12 and one was a devil....

John 6:67-71
(67) Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
(68) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
(69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
(70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
(71) He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve

Now.... who you gonna trust? (the adventist conundrum rears its head...)

I don't think it has to be a "conundrum". I think they can be seen as complementary. Ellen can quite well mean that Jesus did not go out looking for Judas, nor "call" him to leave his place of employment as he did with some others. She also says that he did not "repluse" him. And he did accept him and ordain him as he did the others--which can, as you indicate scripture makes more clear, be interpreted as an official "call" to join the 12.

And his statement as recorded in scripture can be interpreted to mean that He knew Judas was a "devil" from the beginning and "ordained" him anyway, or that He really had hopes that Judas would change his character through his association with Himself and the other disciples.

Which ever way we take it, it still comes out meaning that it is not correct to assume that just because God once "calls" someone to a task, or even to ministry, that that guarantees that the man should continue to be regarded as one who "represents God" no matter what the fruits of his life show.

[Clay]

I believe from reading this quote, that Judas just joined the disciples...."without being summoned."

Now.... who you gonna trust? (the adventist conundrum rears its head...)
I don't think it has to be a "conundrum". I think they can be seen as complementary. Ellen can quite well mean that Jesus did not go out looking for Judas, nor "call" him to leave his place of employment as he did with some others. She also says that he did not "repluse" him. And he did accept him and ordain him as he did the others--which can, as you indicate scripture makes more clear, be interpreted as an official "call" to join the 12.

And his statement as recorded in scripture can be interpreted to mean that He knew Judas was a "devil" from the beginning and "ordained" him anyway, or that He really had hopes that Judas would change his character through his association with Himself and the other disciples.

Which ever way we take it, it still comes out meaning that it is not correct to assume that just because God once "calls" someone to a task, or even to ministry, that that guarantees that the man should continue to be regarded as one who "represents God" no matter what the fruits of his life show.

I don't see it as complimentary at all... EGW fills in a lot of info that the bible is silent on.... When the bible says that Jesus "called" twelve, either he did or didn't.... the scenario painted in DA (one of my favs) is not found in scripture and while some are comfortable sharing that as the gospel truth, I am not...

[Jvat]

Well, on face value, Clay, you seem to make sense.

But if you look at the text that you quoted again, we see that Jesus said that he CHOSE and not CALLED twelve. So with the difference in these words in mind, (that he could have chosen him, after his disciples recommended Judas, even after not intentionally calling him), we can give Watchbird's take some credence, can we not? And still get the message that "once chosen is not always chosen"?

This post has been edited by Jvat: Jul 31 2006, 09:39 AM

[Clay]

Well, on face value, Clay, you seem to make sense.

But if you look at the text that you quoted again, we see that Jesus said that he CHOSE and not CALLED twelve. So with the difference in these words in mind, (that he could have chosen him, after his disciples recommended Judas, even after not intentionally calling him), we can give Watchbird's take some credence, can we not? And still get the message that "once chosen is not always chosen"?

if that works for you, that's fine.... it doesn't work for me.... btjm.....

[awesumtenor]

Well, on face value, Clay, you seem to make sense.

But if you look at the text that you quoted again, we see that Jesus said that he CHOSE and not CALLED twelve. So with the difference in these words in mind, (that he could have chosen him, after his disciples recommended Judas, even after not intentionally calling him), we can give Watchbird's take some credence, can we not? And still get the message that "once chosen is not always chosen"?

You are reading DOA into the text...producing a position that is inherently eisegetical.


Luk 6:12-16 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. (13) And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; (14) Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, (15) Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, (16) And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

Had Judas not been one of those counted his disciples, he would not have been present to be chosen. We are not informed how he came to be in that number... but he was called along with the rest when the time for choosing the 12 came to pass.

No getting around it, no explaining it away in order to reconcile DOA with the scriptural record... I suppose it begs the question of why it is so imprtant to Adventists that EGW be infallible when deemed to be speaking ex cathedra... but that is another topic altogether.

In His service,
Mr. J

[västergötland]

Mar 3:9 And he spake to his disciples, that a small ship should wait on him because of the multitude, lest they should throng him.
Mar 3:10 For he had healed many; insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch him, as many as had plagues.
Mar 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
Mar 3:12 And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known.
Mar 3:13 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him.
Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Mar 3:15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
Mar 3:16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
Mar 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
Mar 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.


Luk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
Luk 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
Luk 6:14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
Luk 6:15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
Luk 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
Luk 6:17 And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases;

From these two accounts, it seems clear that being one of Jesus diciples and being one of the twelve is two different things. Thus Judas could have just quietly joined the diciples and then later when Jesus called the twelve out of his more numerous diciples, he was called aswell. Its a possibility which Mark and Luke open the door for.

This post has been edited by västergötland: Jul 31 2006, 12:56 PM

[Clay]

From these two accounts, it seems clear that being one of Jesus diciples and being one of the twelve is two different things. Thus Judas could have just quietly joined the diciples and then later when Jesus called the twelve out of his more numerous diciples, he was called aswell. Its a possibility which Mark and Luke open the door for.

the adventist conundrum..... alive and well.... Judas was called....

now let's go to this can of worms... given that these accounts were written AFTER all those events occurred, it is not unreasonable to see how the disciples included some editorializing.... i.e. Judas the traitor, or Judas the one who betrayed Jesus.....the account was written from the perspective of those who remained....