Prejudice in the Adventist Church Options

[Denny]

Interesting topic on worship styles. I agree tho that generally West Indians brought up under colonialism, and its influences tend to be more traditionally Anglican in their styles. The irony is when they cross the waters and come to the U.K if they attended an Anglican urban church that same church would probably be more contemporary than its West Indian counterpart. They would probably feel more comfortable going to an Anglican church in the shires. Its not just an Adventist problem it is discussed amongst other denominations however with Adventistm there is such a fear not to be tainted with anything that seems too Pentacostal that we threw the baby out with the bathwater.
Once we recognise that God did not invent classical, country, reggae, hip, hop, World music etc and did not create the SDA hymnal or the latest book of choruses and contemporary songs (all songs are contemporary till they age) and that worship is not about my personal preference in music anymore that its about my personal taste in food and fashion we will be off to a good start.

[Denny]

I think pacunurse might be right in that the divides have become worship-style driven and only secondarily cultural. But until the beginning of the Caribbean immigration waves (40s-60s), I'd say the divides were much more rawly "our people vs these people." Maybe the diffusion of the argument from race and ethnicity into the fuzzier styles and preference mimics some of the changes in the wider culture over the last few decades.
Also, you're likely to find significant differences between "just-off-the-boat" immigrants and "been-here-for-a-minute" immigrants, and between both groups and their "call-myself-local" grand- and great-grandchildren.
Thought I'd add those complications too.

In London where there have been several waves of immigrants since the end of WWII, the church has its own prejudices to work over. First there's the London vs Provinces face-off, which boils down to Afro-Something or European vs Anglo-White because of the shifted demographics of the church in the BUC since the 60s and 70s. Second match-up pits the the Big Island folk and the Small Island folk against each other. Third post-up involves Caribbean folk against the Africans (with mini melees between the East and West coasters). It's all completely ridiculous but still in 2007 has traction. Every single Union session there's still grumbling about certain islands being overrepresented in the administration, and certain continental countries lobbying for influence. Power might smell nice but far too often it leaves a really bitter trail.

I've been frustrated by it for years. And I do remember when the current GC fellow came in talking a really encouraging talk about unity and diversity and I thought "Maybe this is when it all gets sorted out."
Evidently not.

I don't mean to suggest that everything would be fine if all our folly-ridden structures got torn down, but that doesn't stop me from wishing they would be torn down. Individual believers can and should do their piece; it's just discouraging when you see the structures undermining all that such that now I don't know if most folk can even imagine things being any other way, and should you suggest it, their first objections are the logistics of restructuring pay and power.

Aza I agree with you when it comes to the U.K having a church that is dominated mainly by one culture (in our case West Indian) IMO is not healthy and breeds the power struggles you mentioned. I think if our church was better ethinically represented it would be a better positive witness than it is now. As fo the structures of the church yep I would tear the whole thing down and start again this church is over 100 years old so when was the last corporate structure change. However people in power do not vote themselves out of power.

[Clay]

Sometimes they flee because the worship style changes because of the black
members. I remember posting the following earlier this year:

I used to often visit a church that was close to me as I was search for
a home church after moving to the Poconos. The church had two services,
an early morning and then a regular divine hour (11:00a) service. When I
first visited, the church was pretty mixed with those of African descent from
all parts of the globe and those of European descent. Church was usually
over by 12:30p followed by a Pot Luck.

Over what I'd say was about a year, I watched the congregation get
larger with mostly more Black members and the regular service ending at
1:00p, then 1:30p, then 2:00p and then finally at 2:30p (the Spanish
service started at around 2:30p so they HAD to end).

During this same period, the White membership descreased dramatically
if not entirely and they just went to the early morning service.

When I, African-Haitian, noticed that the services were not going to
get shorter but would remain ending at 2:30p, I pretty much stopped
visiting. I actually started attending the Spanish service in the afternoon
on a regular basis (and eventually became a member of that group) and
visited other churches in the area during the morning hours until the
Spanish group got their own church and now also worship in the mornings.
We still end our services at around 12:30p (preferably 12:15p) and always
follow by a potluck. Our group is primarily Latino, however, we have
and "English-speaking" population that are Latino, Black and White (no
Asians yet, but we're open to that option). The services are bilingual
and I teach the English Sabbath School class along with my White
assistant teacher.

I guess it all depends on where you come from. Let's take some time
to look at ourselves and see if we are part of the blame for White Flight.
Things aren't always as they appear.

... but then perhaps it because I was raised in a white-racist society and
my choices are skewed and I may not truly be black???

maybe? Just messin... though the example I was referring to when I made that comment was the fact that the white church in the area started having conservative west indians attend, so it wasn't about worship per se.... neither was it about time, it this particular case it just seemed to be the demographic shift...

[Richard Sherwin]

We generally associate with those of like interests in music, worship styles, age, etc. Because of this there will always be some separation by age, ethnic background, etc. It does not mean anyone is prejudiced or biased because of color, age or anything else, we all just prefer to hang out with people who have similar interests.

Richard

[Denny]

We generally associate with those of like interests in music, worship styles, age, etc. Because of this there will always be some separation by age, ethnic background, etc. It does not mean anyone is prejudiced or biased because of color, age or anything else, we all just prefer to hang out with people who have similar interests.

Richard

That maybe in some cases now but back in the day how comes Adventist black flight was not a known term?

[Shepherdswife]

I guess it all depends on where you come from. Let's take some time
to look at ourselves and see if we are part of the blame for White Flight.
Things aren't always as they appear.

I can relate to what you are saying...not that blame should be placed, but that there are reasons for flight that might not be obvious.

My mom is in her 70's and very traditional. If the service began changing, (which it will/should, if the demographics change and the new members are encouraged to contribute their own "flavor" to the church service) she would find another service. Maybe that is considered prejudice, but IMO it is no different than me not hanging out in my son's room when he is playing his music at top volume. It is not my type of music. I personally would welcome a little more passion and spirit, but she doesn't.

I am not denying that prejudice exists--I know that some still are...just thinking that people leave for various reasons.

We pastored in a very white, only 8-10 attendee church in a very white city. After 9/11, the mix of the city began to change. We had 14 or 15 countries represented within 2 years, most black from various island nations, some Indonesian and a few Brazilian and hispanics. The service changed, the warmth of the congretation multiplied in an incredible way, and the church was immeasurable blessed by the influx. I am not sure how it would have turned out if the church had not been on the rocks for years. As it was, they were so thankful for people to fill the pews, they were open to anything new. I am not sure my mom would have liked the changes in the service, though, had she lived there. But it is a generational thing where she was raised that a certain kind of "worship" is "right". I think she realizes now that is not so, but after 70 years of it, she only likes her style.

Our church now (a different one than the one I mentioned above) is very mixed racially, with one of our elders and some other office-holders being black. Our city is covered by the regional conference and has one or more regional churches, but this church is certainly not divided. But the service is fairly "white", which I can see would not appeal to other ethnicities. (Hey, sometimes it does not even appeal to me! But I like the pastor and he is a good preacher, so I think I will stay... )

shepherdswife

[pacunurse30]

Sometimes they flee because the worship style changes because of the black
members. I remember posting the following earlier this year:

I used to often visit a church that was close to me as I was search for
a home church after moving to the Poconos. The church had two services,
an early morning and then a regular divine hour (11:00a) service. When I
first visited, the church was pretty mixed with those of African descent from
all parts of the globe and those of European descent. Church was usually
over by 12:30p followed by a Pot Luck.

Over what I'd say was about a year, I watched the congregation get
larger with mostly more Black members and the regular service ending at
1:00p, then 1:30p, then 2:00p and then finally at 2:30p (the Spanish
service started at around 2:30p so they HAD to end).

During this same period, the White membership descreased dramatically
if not entirely and they just went to the early morning service.

When I, African-Haitian, noticed that the services were not going to
get shorter but would remain ending at 2:30p, I pretty much stopped
visiting. I actually started attending the Spanish service in the afternoon
on a regular basis (and eventually became a member of that group) and
visited other churches in the area during the morning hours until the
Spanish group got their own church and now also worship in the mornings.
We still end our services at around 12:30p (preferably 12:15p) and always
follow by a potluck. Our group is primarily Latino, however, we have
and "English-speaking" population that are Latino, Black and White (no
Asians yet, but we're open to that option). The services are bilingual
and I teach the English Sabbath School class along with my White
assistant teacher.

I guess it all depends on where you come from. Let's take some time
to look at ourselves and see if we are part of the blame for White Flight.
Things aren't always as they appear.

... but then perhaps it because I was raised in a white-racist society and
my choices are skewed and I may not truly be black???

What you described is, again, worship style. One of the largest congregations in the DC area is Sligo. That church is on the CUC campus (an SDA college). There is an evening service that has a more contemporary style. That is how they've chosen to deal with the increasing demand for that style of worship, especially among young people. Sometimes the youth choir, or some other group, will sing for the divine service and it will be gospel-like or contemporary. However, this is not a routine form of worship. I think this is fine if it suits everyone. However, my issue is with the idea that one form of worship IS the correct way. There really is no way to determine that. Most people who try to argue that this or that music is for worship are almost always arguing based on cultural bias. Since most of the denominations in existance today stem from a European tradition, a lot of people will argue for a conservative service. Black Americans have their own unique experience so the styles of worship are often very emotional.