An Ellen White Reality Check..., something long overdue... Options

[watchbird]

Now ... once you have ruminated on the statement above a bit.... go read Graeme Bradford's response.... which you will find at http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/white/bradford/response.htm

This will take longer. Take your time.



I tried to open this site and it would not load. I would love to read it if you can check it and see what the problem may be.

WOW once I copied it into my reply to you then it opened. So disregard my last post I will go and read now. Carry on

My bad. Really scrambled link code.

Thanks much for waking me up..... ..... all fixed now!

Carry on.....

[PrincessDrRe]

I thought it was just my computer - I fixed it and found it too....

Oopse!

Maybe I should tell folks when I do that.....

[awesumtenor]

My bad. Really scrambled link code.

Thanks much for waking me up..... ..... all fixed now!

Carry on.....

Carrying on, aye... Looking at the now properly rendered link, one finds some things of interest:

*2. "The book suggests that because Ellen White used sources in her writings relating to history, prophecy, health, or theology, the views she expressed may have originated more from her contemporaries than divine inspiration. Her depiction of end-time events, for example, as found in The Great Controversy, is portrayed as deriving primarily from the expectations of 19th century North American Adventists, having little application to today's global society."

Here again the White Estate have not fairly represented what I am saying. I would encourage those who want to understand more on Ellen White's ministry the above related items to go to their nearest Research Centre and ask for the papers presented at the "1982 International Prophetic Guidance Workshop". They should especially spend time with the paper presented by the then Director of the White Estate Dr Robert Olson on "Inerrancy in Inspired Writings." They should also listen to the taped recording of the presentation and the discussion that follows. If they do they will hear not only Robert Olson but also Arthur White, Kenneth Wood, Jim Nix, etc discussing these issues. I am amazed that the White Estate should challenge me in many of the above areas when they so openly and freely discussed them in their 1982 workshop.

If they were going to hide these papers and presentations away to avoid their becoming public, why did they bother to allow the research at all? Given the copious amount of references to EGW Estate materials in Dr. Bradford's work, it seems to me that the Estate is lacking in their maintaining the legacy of EGW if they find a work largely researched in their archives and presenting material they maintain so unpalatable...

In 1982 the White Estate called an "International Prophetic Guidance Workshop" to help meet the threat posed by Walter Rae and others. Many fine papers were presented and I would encourage each reader to not only read these papers but also to listen to the audio tapes of the ensuing discussions.

I have referred to a paper by Roger Coon on page 213 here is its outline:

Re-education of church members needed

In the 1982 International Prophetic Guidance Workshop, Roger Coon presented a paper that called for the re-education of church membership in understanding the function of Ellen White�s writings.

The first part of the paper sets out the problems listed, in part, here

A. The Crisis in Hermeneutic

1. Most Seventh-day Adventists probably have a seriously impaired view of inspiration/revelation.

Bias toward strictly verbal (mechanical dictation) position.

2. Danger when they discover factual data contrary to their view:

Instead of adjusting their theory to fit demonstrated facts,[sic]

Discard prophet[sic] instead of bad theory (throw out baby with bathwater)

B. The Crisis in Credibility:

2. Danger to Church member who hears the charges:

Credibility of EGW challenged

Credibility of high church leaders (past/present) challenged.

B. Methodological Approaches That Tend To Build Credibility:

1.Openness: total honesty/candor

a. Admit the honestly made mistakes of the past:

Putting EGW upon pedestal above Bible writers
Misuse of some statements
(the words that I speak . . . " etc.)
Demonstrate her personal fallibility
Demonstrate her personal vulnerability

a. Honestly face controversial issues; don�t duck them:

b. Deal openly with the existence of some things "hard to be understood"8

The workshop where this paper and others were presented was a high point in the church�s attempt to come to grips with the reality of the problems regarding Ellen White and her function and authority. Unfortunately, what Coon and others were advocating was not really taken up. As in the 1919 Conference so in the 1982 Conference. In both cases there was a determination to share the material with the membership at large, but in both cases the material was assigned to the too hard basket with the feeling that the membership could not handle the new information. So the bulk of the Adventist membership has little knowledge of the information that has come to hand over the past two decades and are left vulnerable when forced to face the evidence placed before them in a negative way.

The bolded statement begs a single question: WHY???????????????

It's like the old Fram oil filter commercials; the church was presented with a choice... both in 1919 and in 1982... pay now... or pay later... and in both instances they chose to pay later with disastrous consequences... even with the loss of those who would have found the material difficult to handle in 1919... or even in 1982 it would have been better for the church to put it out there. The response of some in this forum to these things makes that clear... at least to me it does.

in His service,
Mr. J

[watchbird]

Carrying on, aye... Looking at the now properly rendered link, one finds some things of interest:
"Here again the White Estate have not fairly represented what I am saying. I would encourage those who want to understand more on Ellen White's ministry the above related items to go to their nearest Research Centre and ask for the papers presented at the "1982 International Prophetic Guidance Workshop". They should especially spend time with the paper presented by the then Director of the White Estate Dr Robert Olson on "Inerrancy in Inspired Writings." They should also listen to the taped recording of the presentation and the discussion that follows. If they do they will hear not only Robert Olson but also Arthur White, Kenneth Wood, Jim Nix, etc discussing these issues. I am amazed that the White Estate should challenge me in many of the above areas when they so openly and freely discussed them in their 1982 workshop . "

If they were going to hide these papers and presentations away to avoid their becoming public, why did they bother to allow the research at all? Given the copious amount of references to EGW Estate materials in Dr. Bradford's work, it seems to me that the Estate is lacking in their maintaining the legacy of EGW if they find a work largely researched in their archives and presenting material they maintain so unpalatable...
The bolded statement begs a single question: WHY???????????????

In searching for an answer to "WHY??????", it will be helpful to note the implications of the statement above I have bolded.

The striking thing about the negative review of Bradford's book is not that it is an indication of an attitude of general negativity by the White Estate... but that is is so unexpected, given their own work in the same areas that he covers in his book, and that others have done and are currently doing. The wonderment is in the inconsistency they are showing by putting this negative comment on their site... obviously even before they have done a thorough review of the book.

If you will go to their website, http://www.ellenwhite.com/ and choose "Issues and Answers" from their left hand menu, you will see a wealth of material which is there for the same purpose as Bradford wrote his book.... to combat the myths that have grown up around Ellen White and put her in a more "human" light.

So why do this to his book? I can only conclude that it must have more to do with personalities and politics than it does with his content. But that is, admittedly, only a guess. The important thing, IMO, is that we do not take the EGW Estate negative comment about his book either as an official position of "the church" nor do we use it to make a blanket condemnation of them, since there is much they are doing that is along the very same line.

I'm not sure how much information to put in a single post ... I have some other reference material, but perhaps that would be best left for another time. In the meantime I invite us to wander through the url above.... I think we'll find some interesting stuff.

It's like the old Fram oil filter commercials; the church was presented with a choice... both in 1919 and in 1982... pay now... or pay later... and in both instances they chose to pay later with disastrous consequences... even with the loss of those who would have found the material difficult to handle in 1919... or even in 1982 it would have been better for the church to put it out there. The response of some in this forum to these things makes that clear... at least to me it does.

in His service,
Mr. J

I don't think the two occasions can really be seen as this identical. While it is true that the 1919 materials lay completely unheard of until Haloviak started his task of going through the old boxes that were stored in what was to become the "archives", the 1982 materials were the results of studies already going on by a wide assortment of Adventist scholars. And the study done then resulted in a new openness rather than in further suppression. And the climate for open studies and new ways of handling Ellen White materials loosened up considerably after this time.

Tomorrow I'll post some other source material that is available on-line along these lines, as well as some other information about Bradford's book and what some others are saying about it.

[Clay]

we are still waiting.... on the additional info I mean... where are you WB?

[watchbird]

we are still waiting.... on the additional info I mean... where are you WB?

Don't you know that "tomorrow never comes"?
Sorry about that.... been flyin' here and there ... Just walked in the door a few moments ago..... I'll get back to it soon..... hopefully not prophetic time.....

[watchbird]

we are still waiting.... on the additional info I mean... where are you WB?

Well ... by now I have quite lost my chain of thought ... or at least it has gotten so tangled in other chains of thought that I'm really not quite sure where I had intended to go next or where to start.

But I'm quite sure I intended to bring the urls of Bacchiocchi's website pages where he introduced and gave a few chapters from Bradford's book as well as some testimonials FOR the book... which help balance out the negative things hinted at by the rather vague EGW Estate statement.

It would probably be helpful if someone would cut out the appropriate portions of Bacchs newsletter and post it here, so it would be easier for others to read and compare.. and if someone else doesn't do it first I might do that myself.... but for tonight I'll just give the urls and a brief description of what is in each. Thanks to Thomas, btw, for initially pointing out which newsletter numbers they were. I would never have found them otherwise.

Bacchiocchi first addressed it in his newsletter number 150, "Ellen White and the Trinity". where there are several paragraphs giving some backgound on both the book and the author and the purpose for which it is written. http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/et_150.htm

In newsletter number 151, Bacchiocchi repeats his order information for the book and then gives the text of chapters 11 and 12 of Graeme Bradford's book, which address issues having to do with "The Credibility of Ellen White." http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/et_151.htm

Newsletter number 152 gives chapter 24, "Ellen White and the Bible. " http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/et_152.htm

In newsletter number 155, Bacchiocchi shares some responses of favorable experiences people have reported with reading __More Than A Prophet__ http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/et_155.htm

There is also an essay on "Ellen White’s Theological Growth", which is taken from chapter 15.

What is not clear to me (since I don't have the book and cannot make actual comparisons) is whether or not the chapters Bacchiocchi includes are the actual chapters from Graeme's book or are Bacch's approximation or paraphrase of them. Maybe someone here has a copy of his book and could enlighten us on that.

Enjoy the reads..... see you tomorrow....

[Clay]

read it... the question then is in light of her own view of herself why did the church find it necessary to embellish the perception of who she was to the point that she was some superhuman prophetess not to be questioned ever?

[Denny]

read it... the question then is in light of her own view of herself why did the church find it necessary to embellish the perception of who she was to the point that she was some superhuman prophetess not to be questioned ever?

One word, two syllables, beings with C

[beanchild]

uhh, so what is the two syllable word?

[LeePaDee]

cash... nope that can't be it
... and I callz m'sef an Angle-ish teacher ... sometimes I crack me up!!

[Clay]

uhh, so what is the two syllable word?

con-trol

[laryfromGary]

As I have read the history of this denomination and the controversy concerning story of Elen White being, or not being, a prophet. I have come to the conclusion that there are some in this church who desires to keep the image of her being a prophet, as many of our older members, those who came after the Miniapolis conference where the first meeting concerning her writings were discussed and the subsequent teaching/promoting her writings as on the same level as the biblical prophets began, and those of us who just see her as one of the founding members of this denomination who helped form the doctirnes of our church. This on going battle between the White Library, and those who make use of her writings to formulate their own personal use [Both sides for the purpose of selling books [to make money in order not to get a REAL job, is nothing but a battle of small minded men with an ego complex who are like children arguing over who has the best bike. It is nothing but a "tempest in a tea pot" It means nothing as far as my salvation is concerned because I have already made up my mind as far as she is or is not a prophet.

This childish behavior will do nothing but 1.} Cause them to lose their salvation becaue the whole thing has nothing to do with Christ and the plan of saving the lost, and 2} Will keep this denomination in a mind set of those who formed the church over 100 years ago.

I think it is time to put this whole thing in a sealed box and store away in locked room. Whether she was a prophet or not has nothing to do with getting people ready to meet the Lord.

[awesumtenor]

2} Will keep this denomination in a mind set of those who formed the church over 100 years ago.

Actually the mindest is of about 85 years ago, after she died. Those that formed this church believed in the idea of progressive truth and as such held no doctrine so dear that they would not toss it overboard if their continued study showed it to be wrong. It was only after EGW died that the faction whose position now holds sway in much of the church became ascendant.

I think it is time to put this whole thing in a sealed box and store away in locked room. Whether she was a prophet or not has nothing to do with getting people ready to meet the Lord.

Ironically, it was putting things " in a sealed box" and storing them "away in a locked room" that allowed these mindsets to become entrenched...

In His service,
Mr. J

[beanchild]

...
I think it is time to put this whole thing in a sealed box and store away in locked room. Whether she was a prophet or not has nothing to do with getting people ready to meet the Lord.

sometimes things have to be brought into the open. things that stay in locked boxes too much tend to mildew and go bad. sunlight i hear is cleansing...