Speaking in Tongues, from God, or something from Satan? Options

[Denny]

...or ¿Como`se dice? (what did you say/say what?) Al or LT problably knows this better than I do....

I think that is a reach on the interpretation...I do beleieve that a person can have a special communication with God and that there is a "language of heaven" ...I just also believe that it is personal and should be spoken (if out loud) in private as the Bible says....BTJM

"1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.[b] 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[c] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,[d] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified."

could be a reach until we know the backgroud to why Paul was talking about the subject in the first place.... looking at all the other texts my theory is he was being sarcastic and since he is dead we will never know will we?

[simplysaved]

You posted before my edit...

"1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.[b] 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[c] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,[d] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified."

could be a reach until we know the backgroud to why Paul was talking about the subject in the first place.... looking at all the other texts my theory is he was being sarcastic and since he is dead we will never know will we?

"personal", meaning to oneself or alone. In this sense, some people talk and pray outloud...if you do this, you should be alone...

...or ¿Cómo se dice? (what did you say/say what?) Al or LT problably knows this better than I do....

I think that is a reach on the interpretation...I do believe that a person can have a special communication with God and that there is a "language of heaven" ...I just also believe that it is personal and should be spoken (if out loud) in private or with a translator as the Bible says....BTJM

[saharafan]

To Watchbird:
Thank you so much for those very interesting and revealing references to those posts by sister and beartrap in the "Unauthorized History" threads... I didn't have the time so far to read all 10 History threads fully through, and it doesn't look like that I will have it anytime soon...

To my critics:
I don't think that anyone here really suggested that everybody and anybody who is "speaking in tongues" in the Pentecostal way ("glossolalia") is of or from the devil, as it has been criticized by some...
In my opinion this "speaking in tongues" is in most cases a mere psychological phenomenon without direct influence of the devil or his demons (neither of God...). In some cases demonic spirits are actually involved in it, but not so for the majority of simple Pentecostal Christians. However, this special state of mind - similar to trance - that somebody is in when practising glossolalia opens easily the way for demonic spirits to enter us, or influence us, and there is a serious danger, especially for people that are vulnerable because of other spiritualistic involvement in the past for example. But the main problem or deception I see in connection with this practice is that one believes that it comes from God, is a "gift" from God, and it is also viewed as a proof that somebody is alright with God, since "if the Holy Spirit is in me and performs this miracle in me of speaking through me in unknown tongues, I must be alright with God, God must be happy with me..." It can give you a false assurance... Also, in consequence, thought voices, "visions & dreams" etc. one receives are similarly uncritically accepted as always being from God, like the speaking in tongues itself. And that is where the devil has his chance to deceive us much easierly if we practise glossolalia, even more so as we are already opening our minds for outside spiritualistic influence, automatically and uncritically assuming this influence comes from God and from God alone. As has already been pointed out, another consequence is that spiritual leaders are often viewed as being directly guided and inspired by God and unquestioningly followed. (However, at the same time the true prophetic gift of the “Spirit of Prophecy” is often disregarded… Ellen White well warned us that one of the last great deceptions of Satan will be to make of no effect the “Testimonies” of God’s Spirit through her; and this can be best and easily achieved by Satan through many charismatic phenomenons like visions and dreams etc.)

But no, glossolalia is not the "gift of tongues" of 1 Cor. 14 and 12 since according to sound exegetical principles, it must be understood there as being the same gift as is mentioned in Acts. If you would only have 1 Cor 14 then yes, there are two different possible ways of how to interpret and understand this chapter, and glossolalia is one of them but still not the most probable one because several of Paul's statements in this chapter would conflict with glossolalia and be rather problematical. But since "the Bible explains itself", in the light of Acts 2, we can rule out this problematic interpretation of 1 Cor 14 anyway and give it a much better fitting and much lesser inherently problematical interpretation as referring to spoken (human) foreign languages.

The only place in the Bible that I know of where this modern (Pentecostal) kind of "speaking in tongues" (glossolalia) is mentioned, or implied, is in Revelation 13:13, envisioned in the "fire" that falls from heaven but doesn't come from God; this false fire also includes "signs & wonders" and "visions & dreams" that are not given by God, as well as glossolalia.

Yes, it is true that in the first several decades after 1844 there were occasionally similar charismatic religious phenomenons including early Adventists speaking in tongues and other things; however, it is also true that in several places Ellen White clearly and firmly spoke out against them, against this practice and says very clearly that this doesn't come from God and is a deceptive tool of Satan. Those charismatic phenomenons were for example connected with the "Holy Flesh" movement of believers who thought they are sealed with the Holy Spirit and cannot sin anymore.

It is also interesting that many former Pentecostals who have been speaking in tongues stopped doing it when they became Adventists and realized that it is not from God, that they had been deceived. Some of them have written books against it.
You also can find it among "New Age Christians". Will Baron in his book "Deceived by the New Age" also talks about it, he also has practised it before he became SDA, and what he says about it is very revealing.
Samuel Koranteng-Pipim was once a leader of the Pentecostal movement at his former university in Ghana (or was it Nigeria?); he also speaks out today very emphatically against it.

But certainly, it doesn't mean that everyone who does it is automatically under the influence of Satan and guided by him. In addition, I personally respect and love Christian missionary friends who are Pentecostals and use to talk in those unbiblical "tongues". There are things about personal devotion, intimate relationship with Jesus and love and passion for the "lost", etc., areas where I can learn from them. I also have great respect for some leaders like Loren Cunningham, the founder of Youth With A Mission, whose books I have partly read and which have been very inspiring for me, although I wouldn’t necessarily agree with everything he writes. However, at the same time, usually most people who practice glossolalia also have problems with other unbiblical doctrines (even if they are Adventists) and are difficult to be corrected by the Bible.

By the way, not all those who have accepted the Pentecostal worldview and religious concepts are speaking in tongues... there are Pentecostal members of Pentecostal churches that do not have this "gift" and are still happy, loving Christians, however, they still fall pray to similar deceptions, especially the one of following blindly those "inspired leaders".

When I was mentioning dangerous "Pentecostal concepts" at 3ABN in my posts so far, I was not primarily referring to glossolalia (speaking in tongues) but to the whole Pentecostal worldview, the way of thinking, and of understanding the Bible and God etc. It just is so much more susceptible for demonic influences and deceptions, and its dissemination by 3ABN could make many viewers become so much more susceptible for demonic influences and deceptions.

[princessdi]

Exactly, Sarah! That is where I take issue with those who practice it. As it was explained to me personally,a nd few sermons I have heard on it. It IS very much a private prayer language to basically confund satan, and he is not aware of what you are saying on your prayer. 1 Cor. 14 clearly says it should be done in private, but if done in a corporate setting ther should be a interpreteur(sp). When I have asked why then is it done in a corporate setting without the interpreter, the question falls as flat as the ones about Jesus eating meat does with SDAs.

Now, this also means that the practice does exist, and it should be done in those two ways as instructed in order to be in line with the word of God. Satan wrote no parts of the Bible, so speaking in tongues could not have been deivsed by him for any reason. However, he can use it, even as he does diet and music, to distract the people from the real messge and what is really important. To get us to focus on works.

That is what 1 Corinthians 14 says.....unfortunately, that is not what happens. There is usually no translator that can interpret, so the purpose does not edify the Church body.... and it is done in public as a sign that one has the Holy Spirit....

[watchbird]

To Watchbird:
Thank you so much for those very interesting and revealing references to those posts by sister and beartrap in the "Unauthorized History" threads... I didn't have the time so far to read all 10 History threads fully through, and it doesn't look like that I will have it anytime soon...

If you will go to the post on "The Unauthorized History" that is pinned at the top, you will find that the second post in that thread is a guide to selected posts in the chapters, with brief notes on each one as to what it is about. It is not arranged topically as I did the ones in the post you mention, but in post order, much as a "table of contents" would be arranged. But it takes only a little while to scan through the post descriptions to see what topcs are described. This is the way I was able to quickly find the posts I listed under this topic. (One caution when using it .... there are two problems with the "tour guide" post. One is that chapter 10 is simply not complete. I ran out of time before I got that one finished, but went ahead and sent what I had to Calvin so he could post it then rather than waiting till a couple weeks from now when I hope to have time to return to the project. The other is that since I sent it to Calvin in three sections, one section got posted out of place. Thus you will find it moving from chapter 5 directly to chapter 8.... but chapters 6 and 7 are indeed there... after the very incomplete list of posts for chapter 10. Hopefully we can get this repaired in the future, but I am waiting to contact Calvin about it until I have chapter 10 finished also.)

To my critics:
I don't think that anyone here really suggested that everybody and anybody who is "speaking in tongues" in the Pentecostal way ("glossolalia") is of or from the devil, as it has been criticized by some...
In my opinion this "speaking in tongues" is in most cases a mere psychological phenomenon without direct influence of the devil or his demons (neither of God...). In some cases demonic spirits are actually involved in it, but not so for the majority of simple Pentecostal Christians. However, this special state of mind - similar to trance - that somebody is in when practising glossolalia opens easily the way for demonic spirits to enter us, or influence us, and there is a serious danger, especially for people that are vulnerable because of other spiritualistic involvement in the past for example. But the main problem or deception I see in connection with this practice is that one believes that it comes from God, is a "gift" from God, and it is also viewed as a proof that somebody is alright with God, since "if the Holy Spirit is in me and performs this miracle in me of speaking through me in unknown tongues, I must be alright with God, God must be happy with me..." It can give you a false assurance... Also, in consequence, thought voices, "visions & dreams" etc. one receives are similarly uncritically accepted as always being from God, like the speaking in tongues itself. And that is where the devil has his chance to deceive us much easierly if we practise glossolalia, even more so as we are already opening our minds for outside spiritualistic influence, automatically and uncritically assuming this influence comes from God and from God alone. As has already been pointed out, another consequence is that spiritual leaders are often viewed as being directly guided and inspired by God and unquestioningly followed. (However, at the same time the true prophetic gift of the “Spirit of Prophecy” is often disregarded… Ellen White well warned us that one of the last great deceptions of Satan will be to make of no effect the “Testimonies” of God’s Spirit through her; and this can be best and easily achieved by Satan through many charismatic phenomenons like visions and dreams etc.)

But no, glossolalia is not the "gift of tongues" of 1 Cor. 14 and 12 since according to sound exegetical principles, it must be understood there as being the same gift as is mentioned in Acts. If you would only have 1 Cor 14 then yes, there are two different possible ways of how to interpret and understand this chapter, and glossolalia is one of them but still not the most probable one because several of Paul's statements in this chapter would conflict with glossolalia and be rather problematical. But since "the Bible explains itself", in the light of Acts 2, we can rule out this problematic interpretation of 1 Cor 14 anyway and give it a much better fitting and much lesser inherently problematical interpretation as referring to spoken (human) foreign languages.

The only place in the Bible that I know of where this modern (Pentecostal) kind of "speaking in tongues" (glossolalia) is mentioned, or implied, is in Revelation 13:13, envisioned in the "fire" that falls from heaven but doesn't come from God; this false fire also includes "signs & wonders" and "visions & dreams" that are not given by God, as well as glossolalia.

Yes, it is true that in the first several decades after 1844 there were occasionally similar charismatic religious phenomenons including early Adventists speaking in tongues and other things; however, it is also true that in several places Ellen White clearly and firmly spoke out against them, against this practice and says very clearly that this doesn't come from God and is a deceptive tool of Satan. Those charismatic phenomenons were for example connected with the "Holy Flesh" movement of believers who thought they are sealed with the Holy Spirit and cannot sin anymore.

It is also interesting that many former Pentecostals who have been speaking in tongues stopped doing it when they became Adventists and realized that it is not from God, that they had been deceived. Some of them have written books against it.
You also can find it among "New Age Christians". Will Baron in his book "Deceived by the New Age" also talks about it, he also has practised it before he became SDA, and what he says about it is very revealing.
Samuel Koranteng-Pipim was once a leader of the Pentecostal movement at his former university in Ghana (or was it Nigeria?); he also speaks out today very emphatically against it.

But certainly, it doesn't mean that everyone who does it is automatically under the influence of Satan and guided by him. In addition, I personally respect and love Christian missionary friends who are Pentecostals and use to talk in those unbiblical "tongues". There are things about personal devotion, intimate relationship with Jesus and love and passion for the "lost", etc., areas where I can learn from them. I also have great respect for some leaders like Loren Cunningham, the founder of Youth With A Mission, whose books I have partly read and which have been very inspiring for me, although I wouldn’t necessarily agree with everything he writes. However, at the same time, usually most people who practice glossolalia also have problems with other unbiblical doctrines (even if they are Adventists) and are difficult to be corrected by the Bible.

By the way, not all those who have accepted the Pentecostal worldview and religious concepts are speaking in tongues... there are Pentecostal members of Pentecostal churches that do not have this "gift" and are still happy, loving Christians, however, they still fall pray to similar deceptions, especially the one of following blindly those "inspired leaders".

You bring up some very good points above. And not only is this true about there being differences in Pentecostal churches, but there are definite "splits" over these very topics, with some who call themselves Charismatic or Pentecostal actually writing against other Charismatics and Pentecostal groups. The split over whether or not "speaking in tongues" is a necessary phenomena is one such dividing line. Other lines include what is sometimes called "signs and wonders" movements, Third Wave groups, and "faith healers". Some of the best works against the misuse of the "gifts" is written by some of these writers.

When I was mentioning dangerous "Pentecostal concepts" at 3ABN in my posts so far, I was not primarily referring to glossolalia (speaking in tongues) but to the whole Pentecostal worldview, the way of thinking, and of understanding the Bible and God etc. It just is so much more susceptible for demonic influences and deceptions, and its dissemination by 3ABN could make many viewers become so much more susceptible for demonic influences and deceptions.

Yes, I can see that we are "reading from the same page" here. One of the most dangerous of all forms of this, IMO, is that which involves what is perceived as direct mental communications from God. Especially when it is taken to the lengths that ET, Mollie, Danny, and perhaps others there take it.

Again, though, it is a highly subjective thing and very difficult to talk about or explain to others, since we all, I am sure, believe that God does indeed impress us through our minds with thoughts that are from Him. So where do we draw the line? I'm not even sure how to describe where I personally draw the line. But this I know ....... that if the thoughts, voices, visions, dreams, whatever, are condoning sin, are justifying evil, or in other ways going directly against what I believe is what God teaches in scripture, then I am going to be very very leery of it.

[simplysaved]

I have seen and understand that the hard way how that can happen---you really have to be careful about that...it is not pretty at all....

I also agree that there are many wonderfully loving Chrisitans that are Penecostal...and preach as much truth as God has given them.

It is also interesting that many former Pentecostals who have been speaking in tongues stopped doing it when they became Adventists and realized that it is not from God, that they had been deceived. Some of them have written books against it.
You also can find it among "New Age Christians". Will Baron in his book "Deceived by the New Age" also talks about it, he also has practised it before he became SDA, and what he says about it is very revealing.
Samuel Koranteng-Pipim was once a leader of the Pentecostal movement at his former university in Ghana (or was it Nigeria?); he also speaks out today very emphatically against it.

But certainly, it doesn't mean that everyone who does it is automatically under the influence of Satan and guided by him. In addition, I personally respect and love Christian missionary friends who are Pentecostals and use to talk in those unbiblical "tongues". There are things about personal devotion, intimate relationship with Jesus and love and passion for the "lost", etc., areas where I can learn from them. I also have great respect for some leaders like Loren Cunningham, the founder of Youth With A Mission, whose books I have partly read and which have been very inspiring for me, although I wouldn’t necessarily agree with everything he writes. However, at the same time, usually most people who practice glossolalia also have problems with other unbiblical doctrines (even if they are Adventists) and are difficult to be corrected by the Bible.

By the way, not all those who have accepted the Pentecostal worldview and religious concepts are speaking in tongues... there are Pentecostal members of Pentecostal churches that do not have this "gift" and are still happy, loving Christians, however, they still fall pray to similar deceptions, especially the one of following blindly those "inspired leaders".

When I was mentioning dangerous "Pentecostal concepts" at 3ABN in my posts so far, I was not primarily referring to glossolalia (speaking in tongues) but to the whole Pentecostal worldview, the way of thinking, and of understanding the Bible and God etc. It just is so much more susceptible for demonic influences and deceptions, and its dissemination by 3ABN could make many viewers become so much more susceptible for demonic influences and deceptions.

[princessdi]

Kindly provide chapter and verse(biblical only, please) for this one. I have never heard of one's denomination making them more susceptible to denomic forces, however, it does fall in line with Advnetist reasoning.

When I was mentioning dangerous "Pentecostal concepts" at 3ABN in my posts so far, I was not primarily referring to glossolalia (speaking in tongues) but to the whole Pentecostal worldview, the way of thinking, and of understanding the Bible and God etc. It just is so much more susceptible for demonic influences and deceptions, and its dissemination by 3ABN could make many viewers become so much more susceptible for demonic influences and deceptions.

[västergötland]

Concerning talking in tounges, there are probably several different shades in it. One of them is the testimony Doug B (at least once) have made about one time when he took up a spanish speaking hitch hiker for a cross country tripp. Within a week he knew enough spanish to preach the gospel to the other man and I think it lead to baptism.
There is another experience that I read about in a book seet out to find out the truth about tounges. It was told that one man who was part of the pentecost experience at Azusa street begann speaking in tounges. He had no idea what he was talking about. However, another man in the room was an old jew who later approached the first man and asked if he knew any hebrew. The first man of course didnt know any whereupon the old jew said that he had heard the most melodic hebrew he had ever heard come out of the mouth of the first man praising God in a most wonderful way.
However, I have also read about other testimones where the tounges have been identified as cursing God in languages unknown to the speaker but known to others who happened to be within listening range.
To say that using a heavenly prayer language would mean the devil cant understand is a strange comment considering that the devil has lived for unknown ages in heaven before sin. If he cant understand the heavenly language?
The self induced creation of sound known as glossoalia probably has nothing to add to these examples of real but sometimes unknown language.

To the point that signs and wonders is a method the devil could use to draw people away from God. I am not so sure that the other ditch, secular christianity, is that much to prefer. The saducee party in Jesus time is said to have been secular believers and it didnt help them in accepting Jesus. Pauls advice to test everything and keep only that wich is found good is probably the best way to go.

As to the point about signs and wonders being a source for self righteousness for some people, this is likely true. Self righteousness has a tendency to pop up its ugly head even in the most supprising of places.

I mentioned pentecostal experiences in the time of early adventism and before that, but I did not refer to those groups who did not become the SDA church. More specificly, I used a passage that describes events that would today be clearly assossiated with carismatic or pentecostal beliefs/practises happening to Ellen White herself. And the passage is to be found in the book Life Sketches which can be found among the others in the EllenWhite library. We do not have to go to the other splinters in the early Advent movement to find this. Our own founders have more than enough to provide.

About pentecostal converts turning away from their former practises, this fits with what Lary said in the halloween thread.

I think that if the devils plan is to have one group of christians take a fake set of the gifts mentioned in the bible, he is likely equally happy to scare another group of christians to take none of them. Whatever keeps the christian from spreading the gospel empowered and lead by the Holy Spirit.

/Thomas


I would also add that there are documented instances where pentecostal groups (since they are so independent in the first place it might be difficult to talk about splinters) have gone cult and caused death and missery to people around them. However, I find that there is very little room for SDAs to throw stones in this glass house after Waco...

[saharafan]

Kindly provide chapter and verse(biblical only, please) for this one. I have never heard of one's denomination making them more susceptible to denomic forces, however, it does fall in line with Advnetist reasoning.

It usually is not so much the denomination itself as rather the unbliblical beliefs, the false doctrines, the worldview and spiritual concepts embraced by its adherents, which are the problem and can clearly make them so much more susceptible to deception (also in the area of doctrine) and temptation and misinterpretation of scripture.
Some Bible texts as example: Genesis 3; Matthew 4:1-11; 7:13-23; 23:37-39; 24:4,5,11,23-26; John 16:2-3; 2 Cor 11:13-15; Galatians (the whole letter); 2 Thess. 2:7-12; 2 Tim. 4:3-5; Revelation 13:8,12-14; 16:13-14.

In addition to this, glossolalia makes the performer more susceptible to direct influence of demonic spirits because of the somewhat exstatic condition of the mind during its performance - which can be compared with the Biblical admonition to remain "sober", abstain from alcohol and drugs that "enlargen" the consciousness and somehow suppress the ratio. One is just not "on guard" when "speaking in tongues" against those influences, even more so since it is supposed to be of the Holy Spirit anyway. 1 Thess. 5:6-8; 2 Tim 4:3-5; 1 Peter 1:13; 4:8; 5:8.

Sharing the belief system of the Catholic Church makes one susceptible to belief in the appearances of Mary and follow "her revelations" in Medjugore etc. It also makes one susceptible to put one's trust, confidence and responsibility for personal salvation into the merits and benefits of the Church, its priests and saints.

Sharing the belief system of many evangelical or generally protestant churches makes one susceptible to be deceived by apparances of dead loved ones, or to communication from/with the dead. Or to accept Satan as the returning Christ when he will imitate the Second Comming.

I think, speaking in tongues (glossolalia) can somehow be compared with a sincere Catholic's pilgrimge to Lourdes or to the Vatican; this pilgrimage is not inherently evil or demonic by itself, nor is it something endorsed by God (let's exclude the part of worshiping Mary and the saints or bowing to the pope for the sake of the comparison...). Nevertheless I wouldn't deny that God in some cases CAN be authentially experienced on such a pilgrimage on an individual basis, because, as has been said, God knows the heart of the worshipper and meets the sincere seeker where he is. However, in general terms or on a broad scale, such a pilgrimage will expose the pilgrim to a much higer degree of possibility to demonic deception, even to direct interaction with demonic forces in miracle healings and Marian apparitions. In a similar way, glossolalia is not inherently evil or demonic by itself, nor is it endorsed by God. On an individual basis God probably is able to deal with it, I think. But generally it exposes its performer to a much greater level of possibility to doctrinal and demonic deception as has been pointed out, even to direct interaction with demonic forces through visions & dreams, thought voices, signs & wonders etc. (NOTE: Again, I don't say that ALL of that stuff always comes from the enemy; certainly God can and does also give genuine dreams & visions, signs & wonders, impressions; the problem rather is that Pentecostals usually believe unqualified and uncritically that ALL of this always comes from God, at least in the case that they experience it personally!)

[princessdi]

So, now you believe when in the "condition" the "performer"(most interesting description) even though sincerely believing through their relatinship with Him are in communication with God, no matter their motivation the practice actually leaves unprotected and susceptible to the demonic spirits? In this case satan is able to override a sincere heart? Is that the gist of the bolded portion? IOW, they have let their emotions "carry" them away so to speak? A more sober, logical approach will protect the mind from attack from satan and his forces? I am undertanding that you are not likening this state to some them being alcohol or drug induced, or am I presuming? Just trying to get clarification of what you are attempting to convey.

It usually is not so much the denomination itself as rather the unbliblical beliefs, the false doctrines, the worldview and spiritual concepts embraced by its adherents, which are the problem and can clearly make them so much more susceptible to deception (also in the area of doctrine) and temptation and misinterpretation of scripture.
Some Bible texts as example: Genesis 3; Matthew 4:1-11; 7:13-23; 23:37-39; 24:4,5,11,23-26; John 16:2-3; 2 Cor 11:13-15; Galatians (the whole letter); 2 Thess. 2:7-12; 2 Tim. 4:3-5; Revelation 13:8,12-14; 16:13-14.

In addition to this, glossolalia makes the performer more susceptible to direct influence of demonic spirits because of the somewhat exstatic condition of the mind during its performance - which can be compared with the Biblical admonition to remain "sober", abstain from alcohol and drugs that "enlargen" the consciousness and somehow suppress the ratio. One is just not "on guard" when "speaking in tongues" against those influences, even more so since it is supposed to be of the Holy Spirit anyway. 1 Thess. 5:6-8; 2 Tim 4:3-5; 1 Peter 1:13; 4:8; 5:8.

This post has been edited by princessdi: Sep 20 2006, 05:56 PM

[watchbird]

So, now you believe when in the "condition" the "performer"(most interesting description) even though sincerely believing through their relatinship with Him are in communication with God, no matter their motivation the practice actually leaves unprotected and susceptible to the demonic spirits? In this case satan is able to override a sincere heart? Is that the gist of the bolded portion? IOW, they have let their emotions "carry" them away so to speak? A more sober, logical approach will protect the mind from attack from satan and his forces? I am undertanding that you are not likening this state to some them being alcohol or drug induced, or am I presuming? Just trying to get clarification of what you are attempting to convey.

I think this would be correct.... that the condition of the mind is somewhat altered by the act of opening it to the stimulation of whatever is prompting the sounds that come out the mouth, thus it can be likened to what happens to the mind by the use of some substances. It can also be likened to what happens to the mind when a person seeks through "transcendental meditation" types of activities to "turn off" the active cognitive faculties of the mind and to alter their brainwave patterns. This is also true in other kinds of trance or partial trance states, including some forms of hypnosis....and certainly true in "channeling" which is merely a non-Christian term for receiving information from a source other than our normal environment processing methods.

The matter of glossalalia is one that has not been resolved by even the most astute, thorough, and scientific analyses. As has been mentioned elsewhere, there have been instances of "translation" of the words by those who claim to understand the language being spoken..... and some of these have been described as words of gospel worthy of being attributed to the Holy Spirit ... others have been described as words of terrible blasphemy and/or filth. Other instances have been recorded and subjected to all sorts of language analyses with the results of finding no discernable sound patterns that would indicate that they were a language at all. Christians who are not Charismatic themselves but who visit church services where this is a prominent part of the service .... with many all "getting the spirit" and speaking all at the same time .... do not usually come away struck with the love and devotion to God claimed for Pentecostals as a whole, but rather they describe an atmosphere that is "heavy with a spirit" many feel is demonic.

We cannot judge the individual worshippers .... nor in the final analysis is it all that important whether or not they "think" or "feel" that they are having a genuine experience with God. As we have said before, God meets people where they are, and He also protects those he recognizes as being true seekers after Him, even when they are in the midst of activities he has condemned. OTOH, the person who learns to depend on communications from some 'spirit" rather than on scripture and the rational processes of one's mind, cannot be all that sure that the "spirit" is not a "lying spirit". So we simply dare not take lightly the blanket condemnation of "communing with familiar spirits" found in scripture..... nor the warnings against the "spirits of demons" garbed in "garments of light" and the increased demonic activity predicted by the New Testament writers.

And for those of us who believe that God sent genuine pointers to this via Ellen White, of course, we see these passages as highlighted and especially applicable to our day. So it becomes of intense concern when we see any such things done by those who are either given or assume leadership positions in our church... or in any of its "independent ministries".

[justme]

It seems we have some need to clarify our terminology so we are all on the same page when it comes to the Holy Spirit and human beings.

As I have understood it these are some of the terms I am used to:

"Presence" of the Holy Spirit; Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us after He returned to heaven because He could not be here to teach and to guide and to "COMFORT" us. i.e. "The Comforter".

"GIFTS" of the Holy Spirit: to some He gave "teachers", to some "pastors", to some " ..." etc. to DO the work of Christ in drawing man to God through Jesus.

"FRUITS" of the Holy Spirit: Galatians , "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc". To develop our character to become fit for citizenship in Heaven and to become "Christ's Bride".

"Manifestations" of the Holy Spirit are "repentance", "Conversion", "distaste for sin", etc.

I have seen persons of the Adventist faith join hands with "Pentecostal or Charismatic" friends and begin to favor their form of worship and lifestyle because it "FEELS GOOD", or "it Feels Better", to be led by feeling and emotions rather than to be lead by principle or by "Thus saith The Lord". That is NOT to say the one can't have both going at the same time. It does happen!. When The Holy Spirit works in one's life, it brings comfort and release, and great joy. THAT FEELS GOOD, it can bring tears of joy. I have also seen first hand that one girl acquired a close personal friend. Her friend agreed to go to the SDA church IF she would go to the Pentecostal church with HER. For a few weeks they attended on Sabbath then on Sunday. Shortly they stopped going on Sabbath. They let the "Feelings" take over their choices.

When O got a call from the SDA family that this daughter was told by a "Spirit" during one of her episodes of speaking in tongues, that she was to "terminate" her father, mother, and her sister. That's when the family sought help. The "spirit" told her that she was a woman who had the power to "give life", and therefore she had the "right to end life". Before she could carry out her instructions the family learned that their daughter no longer wanted the blessing before the meal, the bedtime prayers, and lost all interest in the Bible.

Until that time they all thought this was a harmless activity. After a long and intense session of prayer and fasting the daughter was "relieved" of that spirit. The daughter was "healed" and continues to grow in her faith and trust in Jesus. She has no more interest in speaking in tongues.

This is only the second such incident I know of. But others I know of went from speaking in tongues into some form of the occult to "strengthen their 'powers'".

So, what is the truth about who should speak in tongues or not? But then again "WHY?" or "WHY NOT?”

It has some entertainment value, it is interesting to watch, but what does it accomplish?

Is it sort of like a riding a stationery bicycle?

"Come let us reason together."

any more thoughts?

[Lee]

My grandparents over 30 years ago were giving Bible studies to a hispanic young man from Mexico. It was the old Voice of Prophecy lessons that were on a Ducane reel to reel system. They would receive one in the mail, show it, then mail it back to get another, each week. The young man worked for my grandfather. He knew no English. So the tapes were in Spanish.

After many weeks of study, the next "reel" came in the mail. It was the one exposing catholicism. As my grandmother put it on to play for him, she noticed immediately they had accidently send the one in English, not Spanish. The young man insisted he wanted to see it anyway and reassured my grandmother he could understand fine. He was later baptized along with his whole family. This young man started the SDA hispanic churches in my area.

He told my grandmother he heard the "English" tape in his own native language--Spanish.

This is the true "speaking in tongues" when it is used as a tool to reach souls or in which to bring honor to God.

[Brenda]

My grandparents over 30 years ago were giving Bible studies to a hispanic young man from Mexico. It was the old Voice of Prophecy lessons that were on a Ducane reel to reel system. They would receive one in the mail, show it, then mail it back to get another, each week. The young man worked for my grandfather. He knew no English. So the tapes were in Spanish.

After many weeks of study, the next "reel" came in the mail. It was the one exposing catholicism. As my grandmother put it on to play for him, she noticed immediately they had accidently send the one in English, not Spanish. The young man insisted he wanted to see it anyway and reassured my grandmother he could understand fine. He was later baptized along with his whole family. This young man started the SDA hispanic churches in my area.

He told my grandmother he heard the "English" tape in his own native language--Spanish.

This is the true "speaking in tongues" when it is used as a tool to reach souls or in which to bring honor to God.

In cases like this, maybe we should speak of the 'gift of hearing' rather than the 'gift of tongues' - which is really what happened when the disciples were preaching after Pentecost.

[princessdi]

Speaking in tongues actually take three forms. One of which Lee was describing which is what happened on the Day of pentecost in the Bible, the other being the spontaneous speaking of a earthly language that is unfamiliar to you, the third which is the subject of the present dicussion is the speaking in "other" tongues, a prayer language.

In cases like this, maybe we should speak of the 'gift of hearing' rather than the 'gift of tongues' - which is really what happened when the disciples were preaching after Pentecost.

Amazing.........

I think this would be correct.... that the condition of the mind is somewhat altered by the act of opening it to the stimulation of whatever is prompting the sounds that come out the mouth, thus it can be likened to what happens to the mind by the use of some substances. It can also be likened to what happens to the mind when a person seeks through "transcendental meditation" types of activities to "turn off" the active cognitive faculties of the mind and to alter their brainwave patterns. This is also true in other kinds of trance or partial trance states, including some forms of hypnosis....and certainly true in "channeling" which is merely a non-Christian term for receiving information from a source other than our normal environment processing methods.

The matter of glossalalia is one that has not been resolved by even the most astute, thorough, and scientific analyses. As has been mentioned elsewhere, there have been instances of "translation" of the words by those who claim to understand the language being spoken..... and some of these have been described as words of gospel worthy of being attributed to the Holy Spirit ... others have been described as words of terrible blasphemy and/or filth. Other instances have been recorded and subjected to all sorts of language analyses with the results of finding no discernable sound patterns that would indicate that they were a language at all. Christians who are not Charismatic themselves but who visit church services where this is a prominent part of the service .... with many all "getting the spirit" and speaking all at the same time .... do not usually come away struck with the love and devotion to God claimed for Pentecostals as a whole, but rather they describe an atmosphere that is "heavy with a spirit" many feel is demonic.

We cannot judge the individual worshippers .... nor in the final analysis is it all that important whether or not they "think" or "feel" that they are having a genuine experience with God. As we have said before, God meets people where they are, and He also protects those he recognizes as being true seekers after Him, even when they are in the midst of activities he has condemned. OTOH, the person who learns to depend on communications from some 'spirit" rather than on scripture and the rational processes of one's mind, cannot be all that sure that the "spirit" is not a "lying spirit". So we simply dare not take lightly the blanket condemnation of "communing with familiar spirits" found in scripture..... nor the warnings against the "spirits of demons" garbed in "garments of light" and the increased demonic activity predicted by the New Testament writers.

And for those of us who believe that God sent genuine pointers to this via Ellen White, of course, we see these passages as highlighted and especially applicable to our day. So it becomes of intense concern when we see any such things done by those who are either given or assume leadership positions in our church... or in any of its "independent ministries".

Simply amazing.........Thoughts? Let me see..........if we were speaking face to face, at this point I would be considering the breath I would need one day...No further thoughts. Thank you both, Watchbird and justme, for the clarification on your postition.

It seems we have some need to clarify our terminology so we are all on the same page when it comes to the Holy Spirit and human beings.

As I have understood it these are some of the terms I am used to:

"Presence" of the Holy Spirit; Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us after He returned to heaven because He could not be here to teach and to guide and to "COMFORT" us. i.e. "The Comforter".

"GIFTS" of the Holy Spirit: to some He gave "teachers", to some "pastors", to some " ..." etc. to DO the work of Christ in drawing man to God through Jesus.

"FRUITS" of the Holy Spirit: Galatians , "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc". To develop our character to become fit for citizenship in Heaven and to become "Christ's Bride".

"Manifestations" of the Holy Spirit are "repentance", "Conversion", "distaste for sin", etc.

I have seen persons of the Adventist faith join hands with "Pentecostal or Charismatic" friends and begin to favor their form of worship and lifestyle because it "FEELS GOOD", or "it Feels Better", to be led by feeling and emotions rather than to be lead by principle or by "Thus saith The Lord". That is NOT to say the one can't have both going at the same time. It does happen!. When The Holy Spirit works in one's life, it brings comfort and release, and great joy. THAT FEELS GOOD, it can bring tears of joy. I have also seen first hand that one girl acquired a close personal friend. Her friend agreed to go to the SDA church IF she would go to the Pentecostal church with HER. For a few weeks they attended on Sabbath then on Sunday. Shortly they stopped going on Sabbath. They let the "Feelings" take over their choices.

When O got a call from the SDA family that this daughter was told by a "Spirit" during one of her episodes of speaking in tongues, that she was to "terminate" her father, mother, and her sister. That's when the family sought help. The "spirit" told her that she was a woman who had the power to "give life", and therefore she had the "right to end life". Before she could carry out her instructions the family learned that their daughter no longer wanted the blessing before the meal, the bedtime prayers, and lost all interest in the Bible.

Until that time they all thought this was a harmless activity. After a long and intense session of prayer and fasting the daughter was "relieved" of that spirit. The daughter was "healed" and continues to grow in her faith and trust in Jesus. She has no more interest in speaking in tongues.

This is only the second such incident I know of. But others I know of went from speaking in tongues into some form of the occult to "strengthen their 'powers'".

So, what is the truth about who should speak in tongues or not? But then again "WHY?" or "WHY NOT?”

It has some entertainment value, it is interesting to watch, but what does it accomplish?

Is it sort of like a riding a stationery bicycle?

"Come let us reason together."

any more thoughts?