Another newbie critical of BSDA, Handling of the 3ABN threads Options

[Chez]

Actually, WWJD, if you think about it, many people out there will appreciate it that Adventists are a people that stand for something, that have principles. We don't tolerate child molestation, and we don't tolerate deceit intended to cover up child molestation allegations.

When Jesus said, "He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone," He most certainly was not contradicting Himself, because elsewhere He told His church to deal with open sin.

A retired conference official called me the other day and said that that verse is one of the most abused texts in Scripture today. Carried to its logical conclusion, the way some use it, parents could never discipline their children, teachers could never correct their students, and juries could never convict criminals.

WWJD? He would cleanse the temple, and He would denounce the Pharisees and scribes as hypocrites. Of course, He would do it with tears in His voice, but He would do it nonetheless.

Well said!

[PeacefulBe]

Lee your response is "typical" adventist.... lets not talk about it, lets hope it goes away, nobody could really do all those things.... and it is the response that those who perpetrate abuse love.... because it allows them to continue to victimize people....

Unfortunately, it has been the typical response of most denominations. Things are changing, though!

[Chez]

May we all ask ourselves many times daily--- WWJD?--- WWJD?--- WWJD? Let Him use all of us to restore-- not destroy. I pray for every one of you in the SDA church who have been hurt through all of this—just keep on mending broken people as Jesus did and defeat the devil through the Word
WWJD or say if He saw the next comment on this web-site?

Welcome WWJD! We may ask ourselves many times daily WWJD? However, I strongly suggest that we ask ourselves WDJD (What Did Jesus Do)? Jesus spoke against sin, hypocrisy, injustices, and anything that was contrary to the will of his father. Jesus clearly called people names that rightly fit their character as evidenced by their deeds or the lack thereof. What should we call a person(s) who prey on people for their own sense of power? What should we call a person who preys on children for sexual gratification? What should we call a person who puts away his wife under the guise of adultery or some other charge because he seeks another? [I could go on and on.] God loves these people, in spite of themselves; the same way he loves me and everyone else on and off this forum. However, Jesus would call them (that is, persons described in the previous interrogatory sentences) hypocrites, vipers, and other names, which are compatible with their actions. Therefore, speaking out against injustices and wrongs can be ugly and misconstrued as against God's will. There are people on this forum who have suffered and/or know others who have suffered because of the Shelton Family's misdeeds. Should they and the rest of us stand by and say nothing? In keeping silent, we affirm the improper actions of the Sheltons. Therefore, by keeping silent, we are not doing What Jesus Would Do and What Did Jesus Do(?)!

This post has been edited by Chez: Jan 12 2007, 12:44 PM

[redheadbeauty73]

Lee your response is "typical" adventist.... lets not talk about it, lets hope it goes away, nobody could really do all those things.... and it is the response that those who perpetrate abuse love.... because it allows them to continue to victimize people....

Yes, I agree that this has been a "typical" adventist response. Growing up in the SDA church though, I have recently witness a change in that "typical" behavior. Please consider these verses from 1 Corinthians. This is straight from Gods mouth what we are to do when one of our Brothers is sinning....

1 Corinthians 5
3-5I'll tell you what I would do. Even though I'm not there in person, consider me right there with you, because I can fully see what's going on. I'm telling you that this is wrong. You must not simply look the other way and hope it goes away on its own. Bring it out in the open and deal with it in the authority of Jesus our Master. Assemble the community—I'll be present in spirit with you and our Master Jesus will be present in power. Hold this man's conduct up to public scrutiny. Let him defend it if he can! But if he can't, then out with him! It will be totally devastating to him, of course, and embarrassing to you. But better devastation and embarrassment than damnation. You want him on his feet and forgiven before the Master on the Day of Judgment.

6-8Your flip and callous arrogance in these things bothers me. You pass it off as a small thing, but it's anything but that. Yeast, too, is a "small thing," but it works its way through a whole batch of bread dough pretty fast. So get rid of this "yeast." Our true identity is flat and plain, not puffed up with the wrong kind of ingredient. The Messiah, our Passover Lamb, has already been sacrificed for the Passover meal, and we are the Unraised Bread part of the Feast. So let's live out our part in the Feast, not as raised bread swollen with the yeast of evil, but as flat bread—simple, genuine, unpretentious.

This post has been edited by redheadbeauty73: Jan 12 2007, 11:32 AM

[no_cults]

I am thankful you made the comparison. Just as a flame is dangerous to a moth, so are the things that are being said here a danger to our denomination and christians in general.

I would also say that it is a "danger to our denomination" when a closely connected
organization (such as 3ABN), suddenly fires one of it's co-founders, then sends out
letters insinuating that this co-founder is guilty of sexual misconduct. These letters
end up creating more questions than answers when some of the statements in these
letters, frankly, just don't pass the "smell test". Does anyone really think that
just because 3ABN happens to be a Christian based ministry, it should be exempted
from close scrutiny when such an explosive event happens?

Sure, they and others would like for people to accept as gospel their explanation of
the events, but people with common sense aren't easily fooled. Those who have
supported the ministry of 3abn have the right and obligation to understand & know
the truth. This is nothing less than good stewardship.

[Ralph]

Another issue that the churches and GC need to address is the transferring of church memberships after a person leaves an abusive marriage. The way the system is set up, it is easy for the abuser to find out what church the membership was transferred to.

Freedom, everything you wrote is of import, but I wanted to focus on this problems of transfers. I just got off the phone with a conference man and we had a good discussion. Neither of us saw any reason in stating where the member is going if they wish to be silent about it.

The membership transfer is a pain as the system has been in place since the horse and buggy days. Unfortunately many of the church clerks are older people who are not up with modern technology. Whatever the case, we need to update the method of doing transfers.

In the Adventist church, someone knows someone, and it is pretty hard to be in a place without someone finding out, if they are bent on doing so. OTOH, I have seen that people are pretty supportive if they know of a potential problem.

[redheadbeauty73]

I would also say that it is a "danger to our denomination" when a closely connected
organization (such as 3ABN), suddenly fires one of it's co-founders, then sends out
letters insinuating that this co-founder is guilty of sexual misconduct. These letters
end up creating more questions than answers when some of the statements in these
letters, frankly, just don't pass the "smell test". Does anyone really think that
just because 3ABN happens to be a Christian based ministry, it should be exempted
from close scrutiny when such an explosive event happens?

Sure, they and others would like for people to accept as gospel their explanation of
the events, but people with common sense aren't easily fooled. Those who have
supported the ministry of 3abn have the right and obligation to understand & know
the truth. This is nothing less than good stewardship.

Amen my Christian Brother! Amen

[Grace]

Welcome to this forum, wwjd! You said that you're a born again Christian, so you're my brother.

As I read your post, I see concern on your part for the content of many of the posts dealing with the 3ABN problem.

You see, that problem has been a concern for many of us. Some, like me, are concerned by the unchristian and abusive way in which Linda has been treated, because leaders at 3ABN have trashed her reputation in front of millions of people. Only one side has been there, nobody has had the chance to express another opinion.

I personally feel grieved by that action on the part of people who speak the word of God in front of millions. I feel grieved for Linda, for the viewers, and for God's name. That's no way to mend broken people!

What I see is a leader, Danny Shelton, who treats his wife worse than dirt, gets a quick divorce and quickly marries a much younger woman. And then, there are many other immoral actions going on there. Yes, I am grieved and concerned. I don't believe the Word of God condemns people who grieve.

I'm thankful for this forum, that allows grieving and offended people to express themselves. Some have seen and suffered those things first hand. Here they have the opportunity to express the other side, the one that has been shut out by the 3ABN leaders.

Be blessed, my brother. I hope you realize that by saying these things I'm in no way attacking you. You have my love and respect.

Your sister from far away!

[PeacefulBe]

Yes, I agree that this has been a "typical" adventist response. Growing up in the SDA church though, I have recently witness a change in that "typical" behavior. Please consider these verses from 1 Corinthians. This is straight from Gods mouth what we are to do when one of our Brothers is sinning....

1 Corinthians 5
3-5I'll tell you what I would do. Even though I'm not there in person, consider me right there with you, because I can fully see what's going on. I'm telling you that this is wrong. You must not simply look the other way and hope it goes away on its own. Bring it out in the open and deal with it in the authority of Jesus our Master. Assemble the community—I'll be present in spirit with you and our Master Jesus will be present in power. Hold this man's conduct up to public scrutiny. Let him defend it if he can! But if he can't, then out with him! It will be totally devastating to him, of course, and embarrassing to you. But better devastation and embarrassment than damnation. You want him on his feet and forgiven before the Master on the Day of Judgment.

6-8Your flip and callous arrogance in these things bothers me. You pass it off as a small thing, but it's anything but that. Yeast, too, is a "small thing," but it works its way through a whole batch of bread dough pretty fast. So get rid of this "yeast." Our true identity is flat and plain, not puffed up with the wrong kind of ingredient. The Messiah, our Passover Lamb, has already been sacrificed for the Passover meal, and we are the Unraised Bread part of the Feast. So let's live out our part in the Feast, not as raised bread swollen with the yeast of evil, but as flat bread—simple, genuine, unpretentious.

Welcome to BSDA redheadbeauty73!
This is a very appropriate scripture. I think the last verses of 1Corinthians 5 are also appropriate.

1Corinthians 5:9-13 NIV
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

These are pretty strong words of counsel about how to interact with our fellow Christians who have shown by their fruits that they have detached themselves from Christ. While we are to love them as Jesus does, to pray that they will repent and reconnect with Jesus, we should not "associate" with them. It seems that their influence is considered dangerous.

This post has been edited by PeacefullyBewildered: Jan 12 2007, 12:08 PM

[redheadbeauty73]

Welcome to BSDA redheadbeauty73!
This is a very appropriate scripture. I think the last verses of 1Corinthians 5 are also appropriate.

1Corinthians 5:9-13 NIV
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

These are pretty strong words of counsel about how to interact with our fellow Christians who have shown by their fruits that they have detached themselves from Christ. While we are to love them as Jesus does, to pray that they will repent and reconnect with Jesus, we should not "associate" with them. It seems that their influence is considered dangerous.

Thank you for adding that last part. Also very fitting to the subject. This discussion is not about slander, its about protecting our church, which is our responsibility. How can the message be sent to all ends of the earth when people see these sinfull actions, and what appears to be typical behavior for our brothers that are preaching this message? THATS what will cause them to turn away! Remember brothers and sisters, we can speed up Christ's return by working diligently to properly carry the message to all the people of the world!

This post has been edited by redheadbeauty73: Jan 12 2007, 12:14 PM

[inga]

Hey, Bear, we've missed you!! Good to see you again.

I think you may be a bit hard on WWJD. If one watches only the shows, there's no way of knowing what goes on behind the scenes. Dan Shelton still presents a good facade of devoted Christianity under attack by the devil (in the form of folks who know by experience what he's like off-camera). So we really can't blame WWJD for his/her perceptions.

However, your words are on target for anyone who has any inkling of things going on at 3ABN and wishes to cover things up/defend Dan Shelton & cohorts. You speak from the pain of your own experience, and our hearts go out to you.

I've been wondering how you were, and this post makes me a bit concerned -- especially since you write "how many of us have been driven away."

Last I knew, you were hanging in there, knowing that 3ABN does not represent God in this world but that the principal characters badly misrepresent God. And that misrepresentation of God is, of course, Satan's work.

Please, Bear, keep your focus on Jesus. In spite of evidence to the contrary (if you're still in the environs of 3ABN), God is still on His throne. And he will make things right sooner or later. In the meantime, the safest way to walk in the shadows is with your hand in His. I'll be praying for you, and I hope others here join me. May you sense His presence with you.

In the meantime, if you can share what you're going through, we'll listen. But I realize that you may not be able to share much because of legal issues.

May God bless you and keep you and make His face to shine upon you.

In His love,
Inga

WWJD, (as you put it), Have you ever considered how many of of us have been driven away from everything supposedly "christian" by 3ABN and the Shelton family? "Born again christian" are you? Born into what evil abuse against the children of the Creator? Do you believe that people should be abused, molested, and sinned against in the name of your vicious "god"? If the Sheltons represent the "god" who you worship, I promise that there are billions of us people who want nothing to do with what you call "god." Your "god" is everything that I, and the majority of humanity abhore! (been there, seen that, done that crime against humanity and God! And never again!!!) Mending broken people? Do you have any idea how many mended people have been broken by your version of "christianity"? Does that even matter to you? Does the expounding of doctrine mean more to you than the lives God's children? Do some meaningless baptisms mean more to you than the breakage of a family? Does your equinamity in religious, emotional, and social torment of the human soul mean more to you that the divine value of the human soul? Does the sexual/emotional/spiritual devastation of children mean so little to you? ...their happiness and life today and in eternity? Shame on you and everything like you!!!!

This post has been edited by inga: Jan 12 2007, 03:41 PM

[PeacefulBe]

WWJD, (as you put it), Have you ever considered how many of of us have been driven away from everything supposedly "christian" by 3ABN and the Shelton family? "Born again christian" are you? Born into what evil abuse against the children of the Creator? Do you believe that people should be abused, molested, and sinned against in the name of your vicious "god"? If the Sheltons represent the "god" who you worship, I promise that there are billions of us people who want nothing to do with what you call "god." Your "god" is everything that I, and the majority of humanity abhore! (been there, seen that, done that crime against humanity and God! And never again!!!) Mending broken people? Do you have any idea how many mended people have been broken by your version of "christianity"? Does that even matter to you? Does the expounding of doctrine mean more to you than the lives God's children? Do some meaningless baptisms mean more to you than the breakage of a family? Does your equinamity in religious, emotional, and social torment of the human soul mean more to you that the divine value of the human soul? Does the sexual/emotional/spiritual devastation of children mean so little to you? ...their happiness and life today and in eternity? Shame on you and everything like you!!!!

I hope wwjd has the ears to hear what you are saying! Unfortunately it is more likely that he is entrenched in the dysfunctional culture that has been created at the 3abn compound. We can only pray that God's powerful light will someday break through the darkness of the thinly veiled sinful system and things will be put right.

As for you, young man, turn your eyes and trust back onto Jesus and let Him begin to heal you. Realize that He cares deeply for you and yours and that it tears His heart to see the trauma you and your children are going through. There will be a day when all will be made right and sin will reign no more. Prayer is powerful and lots of them are ascending to God on your behalf.

And I second everything that Inga said!

[Lee]

"cult?" "compound" "dysfunctunal culture?"

It really is too bad it isn't a hundred years ago. Then you could have a "string up" party and lynch Danny and the Board in the public square. How sad.

This post has been edited by Lee: Jan 24 2007, 08:40 AM

[Clay]

"cult?" "compound" "dysfunctunal culture?"

It really is too bad it isn't a hundred years ago. Then you could have a "string up" party and lynch Danny and the Board in the public square. Now wouldn't that be fun?

poor analogy.... and a distasteful one too....

however if Tommy was black and he did what they say he's done, in the black community he would have disappeared.... think not? Go read Maya Angelou's autobiography.... she talks about a man who molested her, she told her family, that man disappeared....

I know several other cases of men who molested kids in the church.... never heard from ever again.... not saying its right, but saying different groups handle things differently....

If someone ever messed with my kids... there are people I know I can call that would handle the perpetrator.... and I know others who have essentially said the same thing.....

[PrincessDrRe]

***Professional hat on!***

"cult?" "compound" "dysfunctunal culture?"

It really is too bad it isn't a hundred years ago. Then you could have a "string up" party and lynch Danny and the Board in the public square. Now wouldn't that be fun?

Are you speaking like in the terms of the lynching parties that took place with Blacks back in the day when they were hung for sport?

poor analogy.... and a distasteful one too....

however if Tommy was black and he did what they say he's done, in the black community he would have disappeared.... think not? Go read Maya Angelou's autobiography.... she talks about a man who molested her, she told her family, that man disappeared....

I know several other cases of men who molested kids in the church.... never heard from ever again.... not saying its right, but saying different groups handle things differently....

If someone ever messed with my kids... there are people I know I can call that would handle the perpetrator.... and I know others who have essentially said the same thing.....

I agree Clay - stank analogy is more like it.

There are certain "analogies" that you don't play with "lynching", "Easy-Bakes" (like the Jews in their persecution), "long walks" (Trail of Tears for Native Americans)......

Maybe you were just playing on the racist side. Maybe not on the racist side...maybe just on the crass/ill-mannered/duh side.....

Whetever side. The analogy stanks. I don't want Tommy Shelton killed. I want him away from children he may/can/has in the past [b]MOLESTED!!![/b]What is the problem with wanting someone to pay for the crime of having sex with a child? What is the problem with that? Then again.....

Question:
Lee: Are you a child molestor?


If so then this explains your reasoning, actions, and statements on this board. You have to protect "your own"....

If you are NOT then you just have a sick mind.
***Professional hat off***