Proofs, Or Lack Thereof, A concern of causing false assumptions Options

[Chas]

i agree sera and i think that what i have always understood as ".....a falling away first...." does not pertain to those who i thought it did. i thought the "falling away" would be those leaving the faith, but now i think that the "falling away" IS the organizational church leaving the Faith. it seems so clear to me now that those that will stand to the end are those few who stay faithful to the truth; small groups scorned by the SDA (name copyrighted) church as we know it.
i'm sure some out there will see fit to yell at me and "set me straight" for saying that but so be it.

Mozart

This is also the way I see it. Let them yell!

Judges 21:25 ...every man did that which was right in his own eyes. Judges 19 through 21 shows us what happens when every man does that which is right in their own eyes.

CWS

[mozart]

thank you PB. that is exactly what i meant to say but i guess i did a really poor job; but it sure did open up some great conversation. God bless us all as we try to Reason With One Another !!

Well, wherever those who have remained connected to God, have grown to really know Him and have, through His power, remained faithful, that's where I want to be standing and watching for Jesus. If that is the hills, we will know without a doubt. If that is in Union Square, we will know it without a doubt.

I happen to believe it will be the hills and that those waiting will be of one accord. Once we all flee the structure of society, we will probably not call ourselves Seventh-day Adventists. Many will have separated themselves from other denominations to flee the persecution of those trying to force on them the worship of an earthly power instead of God. We will not be tithing to the storehouse, supporting the church budget, censuring errant members, holding outreach programs or any of the other trappings of the corporate church because there won't be a need for any of that, including any corporate name. All will simply know that they are The Redeemed of the Lord.

[Pickle]

I personally think we will call ourselves Seventh-day Adventists to the end.

For one thing, we aren't like the World Wide Church of God who gave up the Sabbath and kept its name. If our denomination gave up the Sabbath, it would have to change its name, and thus I don't see how God's true people would have to be hiding from the SDA church in the end.

Clay, as far as a Bible text that tells us we must flee in the end, try Lk. 17:31, 32. Lk. 21 parallels Mat. 24, and so does Lk. 17, but Lk. 17 appears to have been given earlier than Lk. 21. Lk. 17 does not appear to be talking about the destruction of Jerusalem at all. Since it seems to be talking only about the end, vss. 31, 32 must fall in an end-time setting.

[Rosyroi]

In my youth I attended SDA grade schools and highschools living in a very large city. From my earliest recollection I had always heard the admonition that in the end times we would have to flee to the mountains.

My teachers and preachers suggested that since we would need to flee to the mountainsin the last days anyway, it would be better for us to leave the cities and live in small communities so we could be more self sustaining when the time comes when we won't be able to buy or sell.

This is one example of having to rethink what so many teachers and preachers told me in my youth to make sure that what is told to me is truth.

The only TRUTH I need is to keep my eyes on Jesus Christ.

Thank you folks for these very thoughtful dialogues.

Rosyroi

[Artiste]

and neither are you.... for your consideration.....you and I are gentiles... unless you know something I don't....

Rom 11:1-36

Thank you so much for the above quote. I keep running into so many people (SDAs) that refuse to believe there is still such a thing as gentiles (unless they are Jewish; in that case they definitely know there are gentiles).

I have very seldom met anyone who would look at the passages in Romans 9 through 11 and come up with anything except "Spiritual Israel"--everybody knows, or think they know that that in the New Testament wherever "Israel" is mentioned it refers to "Spiritual Israel" which then includes both jew and gentile--they are all the same now in Christ.

Not so in the above passages, however.

So, thank you, Clay!

[PeacefulBe]

I personally think we will call ourselves Seventh-day Adventists to the end.

For one thing, we aren't like the World Wide Church of God who gave up the Sabbath and kept its name. If our denomination gave up the Sabbath, it would have to change its name, and thus I don't see how God's true people would have to be hiding from the SDA church in the end.

Clay, as far as a Bible text that tells us we must flee in the end, try Lk. 17:31, 32. Lk. 21 parallels Mat. 24, and so does Lk. 17, but Lk. 17 appears to have been given earlier than Lk. 21. Lk. 17 does not appear to be talking about the destruction of Jerusalem at all. Since it seems to be talking only about the end, vss. 31, 32 must fall in an end-time setting.

Bob,

If you are responding to my post, let me clarify in case any are misunderstanding what I meant. I don't believe God's true people will be hiding from the SDA church in the end. I believe that there will be many in the hills with us who also have God's seal but are from other denominations. They will believe in the same vital truths that we do and will be among the sealed because they refused to accept man's edicts over God's laws. I think it is far-fetched to assume that only baptized Seventh-day Adventists will make up the group who flee to the hills.

I do believe that once Probation closes there will be no need for a corporate church structure, but until that time, it will stand.

In that brief time period between probation's closing and our Lord's arrival, will we really be introducing ourselves as Seventh-day Adventists to those living with us among the trees? Perhaps we will, in passing, but I think our thoughts and conversations will be on far greater themes than labels of any sort.

[Clay]

and neither are you.... for your consideration.....you and I are gentiles... unless you know something I don't....
Galatians 3:29 says of course, "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed...", which means that what ever else Abraham's seed represents, we also are Abraham's seed according to the Bible.
Paul also says that a Jew is one whose heart has been circumcised (Rom.2:28,29) which means once again that, no matter what other meaning "Jew" has, we are Jews.

Interesting that you ignored Paul's explanation in Romans which is in the bible..... remnant theology at its best.... have a good day...

The text was provided. You don't accept the interpretation. And that's your privilege.

a text was provided, the interpretation of that text was suspect at best... but, if it works for you...

Perhaps not to your satisfaction, but I have scripturally proven it to myself. If you have a text that proves me wrong, please bring it.

no need, you and others have not correctly interpreted the texts you have used to support your belief, nor have you dealt with the passage in Mark that gives the warning a time frame.... given that, what would one more text do? The texts in question have been interpreted through adventist eyes for so long that no other possibility will be considered...

I do believe that once Probation closes there will be no need for a corporate church structure, but until that time, it will stand.

Close of probation? Is that a biblical concept or an adventist construct? Can we support that with scripture? That being that there is a period of probation that will close, then a time of trouble, then the return of Christ?

[watchbird]

. . . I think it is far-fetched to assume that only baptized Seventh-day Adventists will make up the group who flee to the hills.

I do believe that once Probation closes there will be no need for a corporate church structure, but until that time, it will stand.

Two comments....

1) It is quite possible that the "flee to the hills" should be taken metaphorically rather than physically, especially since those who use it do so primarily because of what they have read in Ellen White's writings. But those should also note that she also says that we should make no physical preparation for that day... but the preparation we make should be spiritual.

2) Even if one takes the Ellen White prediction that the church will look as though it is about to fall but it will not fall and applies it only to the Adventist church... there are still reasons why that may not be reason for us to take that as an absolute assurance that our church organization will continue as it is until Christ comes.

One primary reason for not doing so is the very nature of predictive prophecy... the essence of which is that all such predictions are conditional... thus if a prediction is made concerning an organization... that prediction is only valid so long as the organization continues as it was at the time the prediction was made. If it changes significantly, God will change his plans for it. He has stated this explicitly and clearly in scripture.

A second reason is that "the church will stand" does not eliminate the possibility that the church spoken of might need considerable re-organization in order to stand... and it doesn't even eliminate the possibility that it might divide into segments, each of which would organize as a separate entity.

A third reason is that prophecy is very often given for far broader application that what the prophet himself realizes when he writes the prophecy. Thus even though Ellen herself might have had only the SDA church in mind when she wrote, God could have intended this to apply to ALL of his visible churches on earth... represented by the myriad different "denominations". And with Christianity as a whole under attack as it is today... especially in some sectors of the world... it is quite possible that Christianity as a whole may "look as though it is going to fall".... and the promise that it will not fall, but stand to the end, may be one that includes ALL denominations that are a part of this wider Christian brotherhood of churches.

[Clay]

WB, thank you for weighing in... I concur with your view....

[Clay]

Amen!! I headed for the hills before Y2K and it has been a learning experience for me being of color living in the mountains. There is no way that our family could have survived without the help of other christians that were willing to show us how to get through the rough winters and I mean rough. Now we can help others.

My husband and I are pleading with family to prepare to leave the city before it's too late. They think that we are crazy. They remind me of Lot's wife.

the text refers to those who live in Judea...... why is that overlooked?

[Voktar of Zargon]

All of us come to Scripture and "the church" with "a priori" assumptions. Some of us have confidence in the infallability of Scripture. Some do not. Some have confidence in the traditional Adventist interpretation of Scripture, others have lost confidence in that interpretation (often those raised in the church). Some have placed all beliefs on the table for discussion, others would prefer to move on with obeying what they are sure of - not being tossed to and fro by every doctrine always needing to be challenged. Some view the Adventist church through primarily negative glasses, others through primarily positive glasses. Some through rose colored glasses, others through jaded glasses. Some have an "independent" stance, others a more "supportive" view.

One thing is for sure, an inordinate devotion to either the organized church, or its critics, can be dangerous. Of course the church is not our savior. But if we are being saved we will be in "the church" - not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together. One of the primary halmarks of the church is the unity in Christ's love that it exhibits. Will there be doctrinal diversity within this agape unity? Yes. Will it be as extreme as is often bounced around on this site? Probably not. The Bible indicates there will be doctrinal unity too. One of the safeguards that Paul tells us will help us not to shaken by doctrinal controversy and to be of "one mind," is the leadership gifts and offices given to the church. Prophets, evangelists, Pastor/Teachers (Eph.4:11-14) - gifts that are confirmed by an organized body.

- v.15 says we should be speaking the truth in love. If we are speaking a lie (error) in a loving way, then we are not speaking the truth in love. If we are speaking the truth in an unloving manner, then we are not speaking the truth in love. Truth and Love are two unifying factors in a church that strives to be organized (unified) - not disorganized. A church that strives to preserve the purity of truth and the prevelance of love.

[LaurenceD]

I know some folks in Colorado that live in the foothills. They've prepared a place in caves to stay during the time of trouble. Some non-Adventist next door to them have done the same thing. I also know some Advnetist in northern Idaho that fled to the mountains years ago only to find some devil worshipers had beat them to it, so they moved back closer to town. I'm building a cabin right now way out in the mountans, near a wilderness area. It's hard to find a place where people aren't already doing the same thing. I thought no one was around, but the land owner next door came up with a group of Buddhists last year and wondered if I could keep the pounding down for a week or two during their meditation retreat. So, I stopped building for a week. Hmmm. I think the mountains aren't like they use to be back in the 1800s. Hunters, farmers, cattle, hikers, 4wheelers, horse packers, snowmobilers, forest service workers, park restrictions--are everywhere.

[Clay]

All of us come to Scripture and "the church" with "a priori" assumptions. Some of us have confidence in the infallability of Scripture. Some do not. Some have confidence in the traditional Adventist interpretation of Scripture, others have lost confidence in that interpretation (often those raised in the church). Some have placed all beliefs on the table for discussion, others would prefer to move on with obeying what they are sure of - not being tossed to and fro by every doctrine always needing to be challenged. Some view the Adventist church through primarily negative glasses, others through primarily positive glasses. Some through rose colored glasses, others through jaded glasses. Some have an "independent" stance, others a more "supportive" view.

One thing is for sure, an inordinate devotion to either the organized church, or its critics, can be dangerous. Of course the church is not our savior. But if we are being saved we will be in "the church" - not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together. One of the primary halmarks of the church is the unity in Christ's love that it exhibits. Will there be doctrinal diversity within this agape unity? Yes. Will it be as extreme as is often bounced around on this site? Probably not. The Bible indicates there will be doctrinal unity too. One of the safeguards that Paul tells us will help us not to shaken by doctrinal controversy and to be of "one mind," is the leadership gifts and offices given to the church. Prophets, evangelists, Pastor/Teachers (Eph.4:11-14) - gifts that are confirmed by an organized body.

- v.15 says we should be speaking the truth in love. If we are speaking a lie (error) in a loving way, then we are not speaking the truth in love. If we are speaking the truth in an unloving manner, then we are not speaking the truth in love. Truth and Love are two unifying factors in a church that strives to be organized (unified) - not disorganized. A church that strives to preserve the purity of truth and the prevelance of love.

I can agree with most of what you have submitted, except there is one serious flaw IMO... most churches, ours included have not exhibited the desire to embrace the "purity of truth" much less maintain said purity.... and I say that in christian love....

[Jnana15]

I can't help but think that the most important thing is not our geographical location but our spiritual locale. We need to be in the "Cleft of the Rock." The flight spoken of in Matthew 24 is a much more dramatic exodus just before the close of probation. Then our geographical locale may be important, just as it was for the Christians who fled to Pella when the legions retreated from their siege of Jerusalem. Unless our lives are hid in Christ though, it doesn't matter if you're holed up in Antarctica - the Devil will get you there.

Voktar, I would have hated to wait until just before the close of probation to leave the city. We prayed to God for years to direct our decision to move to the mountains. We stepped out on faith with $80 to our name and no jobs, sixty miles away from the nearest large city...that was ten years ago and God is still guiding and leading.

You are right in saying that "the Devil will get you there". Being out in nature has brought us closer to our Creator and on our knees more seeking His will and not our own. I am still a sinner who loves Jesus with all my heart. At night when sleep seems impossible, standing on outside looking up into the heavens brings tears to my eyes to know that my Lord and Saviour is coming soon to take me away from this sinful world and all of it's confusion, and I want to be ready for His soon return. I begin to understand more of why Jesus spent all night in prayer. We are constantly under attack from Satan and his evil angels, but to see God's deliverence and protection from the enemy is awesome. He has never forsaken us.

I do leave to try and witness to others in the city, but they are so caught up with where they are in life till it's scary. I keep saying to myself, "it's all going to burn up soon when Jesus comes".

[Clay]

Voktar, I would have hated to wait until just before the close of probation to leave the city. We prayed to God for years to direct our decision to move to the mountains. We stepped out on faith with $80 to our name and no jobs, sixty miles away from the nearest large city...that was ten years ago and God is still guiding and leading.

You are right in saying that "the Devil will get you there". Being out in nature has brought us closer to our Creator and on our knees more seeking His will and not our own. I am still a sinner who loves Jesus with all my heart. At night when sleep seems impossible, standing on outside looking up into the heavens brings tears to my eyes to know that my Lord and Saviour is coming soon to take me away from this sinful world and all of it's confusion, and I want to be ready for His soon return. I begin to understand more of why Jesus spent all night in prayer. We are constantly under attack from Satan and his evil angels, but to see God's deliverence and protection from the enemy is awesome. He has never forsaken us.

I do leave to try and witness to others in the city, but they are so caught up with where they are in life till it's scary. I keep saying to myself, "it's all going to burn up soon when Jesus comes".

Mat 5:13-16 You are like salt for everyone on earth. But if salt no longer tastes like salt, how can it make food salty? All it is good for is to be thrown out and walked on. (14) You are like light for the whole world. A city built on top of a hill cannot be hidden, (15) and no one would light a lamp and put it under a clay pot. A lamp is placed on a lampstand, where it can give light to everyone in the house. (16) Make your light shine, so that others will see the good that you do and will praise your Father in heaven.

based on the above text, seems like moving away from people would be like lighting a lamp and putting it under a clay pot.... but that's just me...