Maybe, It Is More Smoke Then Fire? Options

[Artiste]

I am sure there is something...somewhere...

************************************************

[Snoopy]

Ok, I know this has been said before, sometimes the thread waunders, topics intersect, especially as we see that the topics have some facts and principals in common----3ABN, ASI, AHS, GC...... As we see this has already been spun off into it's own thread, and I am sure this will waunder back to 3ABN in due time. There is no need to move the post, especially since they ahve been copied and quoted, etc.

Amen, Sistah!! And thank you for that. I totally agree!

I appreciated the other stories, and as a 3ABN supporter I personally don't want to look at the 3ABN situation in a vacuum. It is all I can do to keep up with this forum, so if NW had not placed the extraneous information here, I would have missed it. I saw some very distinct parallels in the non-3ABN material provided today, and it was actually beneficial to me in helping to visualize the overall framework (or lack of) that has enabled the 3ABN soap opera to evolve to its current condition. Not only do I want to see resolution and an end to the (alleged) scandal, I want to know what broke down to allow it to happen in the first place and how it can be prevented from happening again. In the overall process of problem solving, a good investigator will take a step back and ask "what was the environment that allowed this to happen?" BTJM...

~~Snoopy~~

This post has been edited by Snoopy: Jun 7 2007, 03:15 PM

[mozart]

Gregory,
may i recommend that we start a forum called "Dragons" ?
i'd also like to suggest that when we speak of Adventist Organizations that we make it clear that we are talking about organizations and not SDAs all inclusive as in "SDAs are building their kingdom here instead of in Heaven" type posts. i know we know what we mean (most of the time) but others who view here may get the impression we are putting down our church (group of individuals-church). just as with DS, MS, GMc, etc. not being 3ABN but individuals. can we maybe use the term "org." when we are referring to those situations? just a suggestion so we are not mis-preceived.

NW,
i appreciate your posting all that info. sometimes i'd rather crawl in a cave than know some of this stuff, but it is important that we do know and hopefully we will use the information to make a difference.

To Most,
you are very bright and i'm glad to be here to discuss things that matter and even those that don't.

Bear:

I may not have been clear. My dear wife occasionally (?) tells me that is the case with me.

Thank you for helping me to clairfy it.

I do not have a problem with any discussiong that subject, or others. Each can make their own decision as to where they spend their emotional energy.

My wish was to do it somewhere other than in this 3-ABN section.

Thank you,
Gregory Matthews

[Clay]

I would say not only in another thread, but also in another forum. I agree with Gregory. This forum was created for the purpose of containing information on the 3abn Saga in one place where those who wished to learn what has been said could come and read. And the more we add unrelated topics in this forum, the more it is unnecessarily made cumersome and difficult for new comers to find material relative to 3abn and difficult for old-times to be able to review and compare old material with new. And this is true no matter how great the urgency or how trivial the light-hearted comments.

The admins here have been quite cooperative in moving much of the distractive material. I hope they will soon see this block of posts and move them to an appropriately titled thread in an appropriate forum so that those who are interested in these topics may have access to them and be able to continue discussing them, and those who come to find information about 3abn will be able to do so more easily.

Thanks much admins!

ummmm not quite.... discussions wander, as this one does.... and since there is really no new information as well as some information known only to a select few and they can't say what they know, then a tangent here and there is fine.....

This sub forum was reluctantly created to keep all the 3abn discussion in one place... that some people have found it helpful because all the stuff is in one place is a by-product of its creation.... as for moving the posts relating to the hospital stuff, to me its related so for now it can stay where it is..... its not like people can't multitask... I am sure folks can keep track of multiple thoughts....

Lastly, those who are interested in the information here need to join and participate in all areas of BSDA and not just 3abn.... but that's just me....

[Fran]

I have no disagreement with your points about placement Watchbird. I am a little uneasy with the implication that the 3abn scandal is the only thing that people are or should be interested in. Some may find the downside potential of what used to be a church controlled health system run amok, even more frightening than the 3abn debacle.

-bear

To whom it may concern;

WARNING! WARNING! This post is not for everyone. If you are sensitive or get you feeling hurt over others opinions, please do not read past this line of this post.

Bear;

I totally, unequivocally agree with you and Noah's wife. I am a free thinker and can think about more than one thing at a time.

Gregory;

I have deleted this post about 4 times. This is my chilled/watered down version of a response to your objection over Noah's wife's post about Vega.

I am so glad the Vega event was posted; you know, out of sight, out of mind.

Yes, we are concerned about 3ABN! However, I also feel that there was gross abuse in the Vega situation also! The father was a Seventh-day Adventist preacher for goodness sake!

There are times I need help in doing what I cannot do. Do I look to my church? No way. They would take no action and then say no! I trust in the world for these things. Shame, huh?

When I am hospitalized, I pass by the local SDA Hospital! I have seen my daughter in agony in that hospital. She was there for about 4 months. At least 3-4 times a week, she was not delivered a meal. She was a vegetarian, but they would always bring her meat. They never got that right. The meals they just forgot, bought Dinty Moore stew as a substitute. I called them and they said, "If she wants to eat, she better eat what she is served!" None of my family will go there again!

Just because a poster posted about another case of abuse that maybe could have saved a life, there is no need to attack or disagree with the poster because of how you or Watchbird personally feel. This is not your forum, nor is it mine! Just because you let us know, at every given opportunity, that you are better informed than most of us, does not mean we are not able to read/ignore the matters we want/don't want to see. We should decide this without hearing your displeasure/pleasure about the post or where it should be located.

I would strongly suggest that we that can "Walk and chew bubble gum at the same time," read what we please and ignore what we choose to ignore.

Are you a moderator here? Shouldn't these suggestions and decisions come from a BSDA moderator?

Freedom of choice is why I come here now instead of parking at Club Adventist. I do not fit into their mold any longer. Please do not try to bring that subculture over here. Club Adventist is known for the moderators taking bites out of members/people. When I get bit, I tend to bite back! Right?

You are correct, we are diverse, praise God. In my opinion, I like to see things from as many views as possible. I am able to make decisions on my own. I am in the group and do not need to regroup!

I feel Vega is important! It is about Administrative abuse; So is 3ABN! The similarities are overwhelming. Both are important. I can gasp both and not let my thinking about 3ABN to wave.

If you desire we continue to be united, then stop saying we might be swayed away by other information! This is sort of like the JW's telling their people they are not allowed to read this or the other!

I believe our past experiences have made me see red at your post. I am sorry. I also believe you owe Noah's wife and apology. Your first comments were uncalled for.

The Vega post has not caused any splitting off the objective in any permanent way. We ARE United without being treated like children. Sorry for being so blunt. That is me, right; A bull dog that never lets go? Shock and Awe; and all that other garbage.

I also believe we are well aware that the battle has not been won. No need to point that out either. Please allow us to be free thinkers and decision makers. Stop trying to chase me away, because I am here for the duration!

Watchbird;

I am praying you will understand the emotions of some who are grieving for 3ABN and members of the SDA Church. We are so different. I believe another poster made the comment that a previous post of yours about emotions was "Cold". I agree 100%

Now, I am finished with my opinions and will turn everyone back to the regularly scheduled program.

[calvin]

Are you a moderator here? Shouldn't these suggestions and decisions come from a BSDA moderator?

We the administrators always welcome suggestions and often act positively on them.

[Jnana15]

To whom it may concern;

WARNING! WARNING! This post is not for everyone. If you are sensitive or get you feeling hurt over others opinions, please do not read past this line of this post.

Bear;

I totally, unequivocally agree with you and Noah's wife. I am a free thinker and can think about more than one thing at a time.

Gregory;

I have deleted this post about 4 times. This is my chilled/watered down version of a response to your objection over Noah's wife's post about Vega.

I am so glad the Vega event was posted; you know, out of sight, out of mind.

Yes, we are concerned about 3ABN! However, I also feel that there was gross abuse in the Vega situation also! The father was a Seventh-day Adventist preacher for goodness sake!

There are times I need help in doing what I cannot do. Do I look to my church? No way. They would take no action and then say no! I trust in the world for these things. Shame, huh?

When I am hospitalized, I pass by the local SDA Hospital! I have seen my daughter in agony in that hospital. She was there for about 4 months. At least 3-4 times a week, she was not delivered a meal. She was a vegetarian, but they would always bring her meat. They never got that right. The meals they just forgot, bought Dinty Moore stew as a substitute. I called them and they said, "If she wants to eat, she better eat what she is served!" None of my family will go there again!

Just because a poster posted about another case of abuse that maybe could have saved a life, there is no need to attack or disagree with the poster because of how you or Watchbird personally feel. This is not your forum, nor is it mine! Just because you let us know, at every given opportunity, that you are better informed than most of us, does not mean we are not able to read/ignore the matters we want/don't want to see. We should decide this without hearing your displeasure/pleasure about the post or where it should be located.

I would strongly suggest that we that can "Walk and chew bubble gum at the same time," read what we please and ignore what we choose to ignore.

Are you a moderator here? Shouldn't these suggestions and decisions come from a BSDA moderator?

Freedom of choice is why I come here now instead of parking at Club Adventist. I do not fit into their mold any longer. Please do not try to bring that subculture over here. Club Adventist is known for the moderators taking bites out of members/people. When I get bit, I tend to bite back! Right?

You are correct, we are diverse, praise God. In my opinion, I like to see things from as many views as possible. I am able to make decisions on my own. I am in the group and do not need to regroup!

I feel Vega is important! It is about Administrative abuse; So is 3ABN! The similarities are overwhelming. Both are important. I can gasp both and not let my thinking about 3ABN to wave.

If you desire we continue to be united, then stop saying we might be swayed away by other information! This is sort of like the JW's telling their people they are not allowed to read this or the other!

I believe our past experiences have made me see red at your post. I am sorry. I also believe you owe Noah's wife and apology. Your first comments were uncalled for.

The Vega post has not caused any splitting off the objective in any permanent way. We ARE United without being treated like children. Sorry for being so blunt. That is me, right; A bull dog that never lets go? Shock and Awe; and all that other garbage.

I also believe we are well aware that the battle has not been won. No need to point that out either. Please allow us to be free thinkers and decision makers. Stop trying to chase me away, because I am here for the duration!

Watchbird;

I am praying you will understand the emotions of some who are grieving for 3ABN and members of the SDA Church. We are so different. I believe another poster made the comment that a previous post of yours about emotions was "Cold". I agree 100%

Now, I am finished with my opinions and will turn everyone back to the regularly scheduled program.

Thank you my brave Sista!/Brother. I am right by your side.

[Shepherdswife]

[b]


The father was a Seventh-day Adventist preacher for goodness sake!

I know this has been stated over and over, but I have a question--not aimed at Fran, just put it here because she mentioned it again.

SDA pastors' sons have very good insurance. Why did this kid not have any? Unless his dad was a lay pastor? Something about this story smells funny to me...

I am appalled as well as you all are when injustice happens, but if some of the facts don't sound right, it makes me at least not take everything the article says for granted.

IOW, I don't always believe everything I read--which is why I fit in here so well, I think!

shepherdswife

[princessdi]

I was wondering ther same thing, I actually was assuming that he might have been grown.

I know this has been stated over and over, but I have a question--not aimed at Fran, just put it here because she mentioned it again.

SDA pastors' sons have very good insurance. Why did this kid not have any? Unless his dad was a lay pastor? Something about this story smells funny to me...

I am appalled as well as you all are when injustice happens, but if some of the facts don't sound right, it makes me at least not take everything the article says for granted.

IOW, I don't always believe everything I read--which is why I fit in here so well, I think!

shepherdswife

[PeacefulBe]

I was wondering ther same thing, I actually was assuming that he might have been grown.

A Google search of images brought this up yesterday. Rodney was not an adult. The outrage is totally justified, IMO! (I hope the link below works - it was huge!)

Rodney Vega picture and article from Washington Post

Shepherdswife,

It definitely is a good quality not to believe everything we read, but we must take the next step and check it out to see if it is true before we consider dismissing it because of perceived inconsistancies.

[Observer]

I know this has been stated over and over, but I have a question--not aimed at Fran, just put it here because she mentioned it again.

SDA pastors' sons have very good insurance. Why did this kid not have any? Unless his dad was a lay pastor? Something about this story smells funny to me...

I am appalled as well as you all are when injustice happens, but if some of the facts don't sound right, it makes me at least not take everything the article says for granted.

IOW, I don't always believe everything I read--which is why I fit in here so well, I think!

shepherdswife

You have raised a very good question.

I got involved in it some time back. As I looked into it, I discovered that some of the claims made were not allthat they were said to be. I.e. found there was in some cases partial truth, and partial error.

As a bottom line, I ramained on the side of the child and the parents. I felt that there were some major points that were valid in regard to how he was treated.

But, my memory and sources of facts has failed in the time that has passed. So, I will not pontificate on them now.

On a technical point: SDA pastors have a good medical plan. I question whether it will typically quqalify as insurance, under the laws that govern insurance. However, as I have not been on a denominational payroll for many years, it may be that they are now covered by an insurance plan.

[princessdi]

Ok so why was he not covered under his father's insurance?

A Google search of images brought this up yesterday. Rodney was not an adult. The outrage is totally justified, IMO! (I hope the link below works - it was huge!)

Rodney Vega picture and article from Washington Post

Shepherdswife,

It definitely is a good quality not to believe everything we read, but we must take the next step and check it out to see if it is true before we consider dismissing it because of perceived inconsistancies.

[Clay]

Ok so why was he not covered under his father's insurance?

as if insurance covers everything? maybe he was under-insured?

[PeacefulBe]

Ok so why was he not covered under his father's insurance?

Does the denomination provide insurance for every pastor's family in every country? The Washington Post article portrays the family as Venezuelan and the father as an Adventist minister:

Rodney's parents are practicing Adventists; his father, a Venezuelan, is here on a special visa granted to religious ministers. Yet each time the family sought care at Florida Hospital, one of 38 owned by Adventist Health System, they say the hospital demanded money up front -- tens of thousands of dollars the family does not have.

Was Rodney deemed to have been an acceptable sacrifice to maintain the Florida Hospital's bottom line just as the alleged victims of some of 3abn's leadership have appeared to be acceptable sacrifices to maintain the ministry image and bottom line?

There appear to be some striking parallels that bring one to wonder what the true missions of these organizations actually are.

[roxe]

To whom it may concern;
WARNING! WARNING! This post is not for everyone. If you are sensitive or get you feeling hurt over others opinions, please do not read past this line of this post.

Bear;
I totally, unequivocally agree with you and Noah's wife. I am a free thinker and can think about more than one thing at a time.

Gregory;
I have deleted this post about 4 times. This is my chilled/watered down version of a response to your objection over Noah's wife's post about Vega.
I am so glad the Vega event was posted; you know, out of sight, out of mind.
Yes, we are concerned about 3ABN! However, I also feel that there was gross abuse in the Vega situation also! The father was a Seventh-day Adventist preacher for goodness sake!
There are times I need help in doing what I cannot do. Do I look to my church? No way. They would take no action and then say no! I trust in the world for these things. Shame, huh?
When I am hospitalized, I pass by the local SDA Hospital! I have seen my daughter in agony in that hospital. She was there for about 4 months. At least 3-4 times a week, she was not delivered a meal. She was a vegetarian, but they would always bring her meat. They never got that right. The meals they just forgot, bought Dinty Moore stew as a substitute. I called them and they said, "If she wants to eat, she better eat what she is served!" None of my family will go there again!

Just because a poster posted about another case of abuse that maybe could have saved a life, there is no need to attack or disagree with the poster because of how you or Watchbird personally feel. This is not your forum, nor is it mine! Just because you let us know, at every given opportunity, that you are better informed than most of us, does not mean we are not able to read/ignore the matters we want/don't want to see. We should decide this without hearing your displeasure/pleasure about the post or where it should be located.

I would strongly suggest that we that can "Walk and chew bubble gum at the same time," read what we please and ignore what we choose to ignore.
Are you a moderator here? Shouldn't these suggestions and decisions come from a BSDA moderator?
Freedom of choice is why I come here now instead of parking at Club Adventist. I do not fit into their mold any longer. Please do not try to bring that subculture over here. Club Adventist is known for the moderators taking bites out of members/people. When I get bit, I tend to bite back! Right?
You are correct, we are diverse, praise God. In my opinion, I like to see things from as many views as possible. I am able to make decisions on my own. I am in the group and do not need to regroup!
I feel Vega is important! It is about Administrative abuse; So is 3ABN! The similarities are overwhelming. Both are important. I can gasp both and not let my thinking about 3ABN to wave.
If you desire we continue to be united, then stop saying we might be swayed away by other information! This is sort of like the JW's telling their people they are not allowed to read this or the other!
I believe our past experiences have made me see red at your post. I am sorry. I also believe you owe Noah's wife and apology. Your first comments were uncalled for.
The Vega post has not caused any splitting off the objective in any permanent way. We ARE United without being treated like children. Sorry for being so blunt. That is me, right; A bull dog that never lets go? Shock and Awe; and all that other garbage.
I also believe we are well aware that the battle has not been won. No need to point that out either. Please allow us to be free thinkers and decision makers. Stop trying to chase me away, because I am here for the duration!

Watchbird;
I am praying you will understand the emotions of some who are grieving for 3ABN and members of the SDA Church. We are so different. I believe another poster made the comment that a previous post of yours about emotions was "Cold". I agree 100%
Now, I am finished with my opinions and will turn everyone back to the regularly scheduled program.

thank you Fran for your very kind words. i agree with you 100%, and have wished i could have said similar things at times - but refrained cuz i didn't want to start WW3,4,5&6!

boldings above in the quoted post are mine...

This post has been edited by roxe: Jun 8 2007, 11:28 PM