What Is This Really About?, the end game... Options

[YogusBearus]

Bob, whatever differences I may have with you and Gailon, you don't strike me as the kind of guys who can be bought. (Don't let that go to your head! )

What are your goals in all this? Danny's public repentance and resignation, on 3ABN Live, for the slander of Linda (and Arild)? and for covering up for Tommy? Should Walter Thompsen, Shelley Quinn, Kay Kuzma and John Lomacang be included? Their public resignation as well--perhaps the entire board?

Whoever paid for this lawsuit needs to be called to account publicly as well.

A full investigation into the charges against Tommy would be appropriate. A complete independent (duh) audit of 3ABN's books for the last (how many?) years as well.

I don't know if these conditions can be made part of a settlement. Can they?

When I read the above post by SE on another thread it struck me that I wasn't certain what this was all about. For those who feel that enormous abuses have occurred at 3abn, and I fall into that camp, what will it take for us to be satisfied that justice has been done? I was somewhat surprised to find that I wasn't really certain what the end game was.

I was recently talking to a elderly couple that are avid 3abn supporters. They were visibly upset at all the negative news they were hearing about 3abn. They told me that they had it on good authority that Linda Shelton had been promised a return to her former position at 3abn and that those guys being sued were planning on taking over 3abn once Danny and company were gone. I suggested that either scenario was extremely unlikely and probably the result of a over active imagination.

That said, I would be interested in knowing what the best possible resolution to this mess is. Although Gregory recently spoke to this, I don't know that I've ever read or heard specifically what the goals of Mr. Pickle and Mr. Joy are in this. They have made an enormous effort to force the issues to this point. What is their best case scenario? Can they put to rest the rumors regarding the promised or implied return of Linda Shelton and any consideration they might have to being involved in a future 3abn?

For those who have been active in this section of BSDA over the past year and a half, what is the very best resolution you could hope for?


-bear

[Clay]

It is my opinion that what may have started out as something noble and virtuous has morphed into something different... while the goals have not been articulated from what I can see, I suspect the the goals now are different than those suggested initally.....

[SoulEspresso]

I think Gregory hit it right on the head in the other thread. Truth. Even if no one on either side comes out smelling like a rose.

Ultimately, I hope against hope that this leads to greater transparency in the church at every level. I'm sick, sick, sick of the church covering over sin in the camp to keep up appearances. Crises and sin like this needs to be dealt with openly, wherever it occurs.

It's hiding sin that allows it to continue!

[sister]

I can not speak for anyone else involved in the “3ABN Saga”, but for myself the goals have not changed. I am still a supporter of 3ABN as a ministry, that has never changed for me. My goal from the beginning was a cleansing of the “sin in the camp”, a complete change of leadership on all levels, including the Board. That is still my goal.

Do I see the return of Linda Shelton as an administrator at 3ABN as part of the solution? No. I feel great compassion for an innocent woman whose reputation was ruined, first privately and then publically on international television, by a man who, while professing to be the leader of a Christian ministry, treated his wife in the most ungodly fashion possible. I believe that the SDA church has done a grave injustice to Linda Shelton. When she sought help from the upper echelons of the church, because she was unable to receive justice in either her local church or Conference, they turned their back on her situation. I believe that the public support of Linda Shelton and the clearing of her reputation within the church would be a better solution than her return to any office within a reorganized 3ABN ministry.

At this time Adventist official church support, within different world divisions, is dwindling. An example of this is the North Island New Zealand Conference no longer being willing to accept offerings and passing them on to 3ABN. Unless there is a major restructuring at 3ABN, I believe there will be a stronger movement to cut more official ties between 3ABN and the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

I would like to comment more on this subject later. These are just my immediate reactions to this new thread.

I also agree strongly with SoulEspresso, the watch word is TRUTH. I hope this situation will lead to a new transparency both within the official SDA church, self-professed supporting ministries of the church and ASI. I would like to see the end of the McNeilus era, where men of wealth and influence weld more power within the church, than a simple "thus saith the Lord".

Sister

[SoulEspresso]

I would like to see the end of the McNeilus era, where men of wealth and influence weld more power within the church, than a simple "thus saith the Lord".

The funny thing is, I have reason to believe they're not even the biggest givers to the church. Not all rich believers think their money makes them special. At least the ones who read the epistle of James don't.

[Brick Step]

...
Do I see the return of Linda Shelton as an administrator at 3ABN as part of the solution? No. I feel great compassion for an innocent woman whose reputation was ruined, first privately and then publically on international television, by a man who, while professing to be the leader of a Christian ministry, treated his wife in the most ungodly fashion possible. I believe that the SDA church has done a grave injustice to Linda Shelton. When she sought help from the upper echelons of the church, because she was unable to receive justice in either her local church or Conference, they turned their back on her situation. I believe that the public support of Linda Shelton and the clearing of her reputation within the church would be a better solution than her return to any office within a reorganized 3ABN ministry....

I also feel great compassion for Linda Shelton. God come preciously near to her.

How is Linda doing now?

[YogusBearus]

The funny thing is, I have reason to believe they're not even the biggest givers to the church. Not all rich believers think their money makes them special. At least the ones who read the epistle of James don't.

Dead on SE. I am also encouraged to know that two of our schools recently refused substantial gifts from one of these "special" givers. While these schools were desperate for funding, they were not willing to be blackmailed into accepting the special conditions attached to the gift. Wouldn't it be nice if all church leadership had these principles and this amount of faith in God's ability to provide.

I've looked all morning but can't find the passage where the widow who gave everything met with church leaders to outline her requirements. I can't even find the part where the photographer was there to record her gift.



-bear

This post has been edited by YogusBearus: Aug 11 2007, 07:20 AM

[Observer]

It is my opinion that what may have started out as something noble and virtuous has morphed into something different... while the goals have not been articulated from what I can see, I suspect the the goals now are different than those suggested initally.....

What I say here is my personal reaction, and not something that I have discussed with either Bob or Gailon:

Anytime a lawsuit is filed in a Federal court, the dynamics of the situation immediately change. High priced lawyers begin to run up billable hours. People are placed in financial risk. Note the statement of 3-ABN that their actual damages are in excess of $75,000. (As a legal point, tha statement was required to get ithe lawsuit into Federal court.)

AT this point the dynamics change the focus from the origional goals,w hatever they were, to the lawsuit--responding to the other side, setting the stage for the trial, protecting oneself from financial ruin, and winning the lawsuit.

I have been asked why Gailon and Bob have taken certain actions. My response has been that they have been required to do so becasue of what 3-ABN has said in documents filed with the court. Folks, when charges are made, responses must be made. They must be made in correct legal forum, and in a manner that not only responds to the issues as raised by 3-ABN, but responds in a manner that protects the people charged.

Folks, this is the way our legal system works.

[Clay]

What I say here is my personal reaction, and not something that I have discussed with either Bob or Gailon:

Anytime a lawsuit is filed in a Federal court, the dynamics of the situation immediately change. High priced lawyers begin to run up billable hours. People are placed in financial risk. Note the statement of 3-ABN that their actual damages are in excess of $75,000. (As a legal point, tha statement was required to get ithe lawsuit into Federal court.)

AT this point the dynamics change the focus from the origional goals,w hatever they were, to the lawsuit--responding to the other side, setting the stage for the trial, protecting oneself from financial ruin, and winning the lawsuit.

I have been asked why Gailon and Bob have taken certain actions. My response has been that they have been required to do so becasue of what 3-ABN has said in documents filed with the court. Folks, when charges are made, responses must be made. They must be made in correct legal forum, and in a manner that not only responds to the issues as raised by 3-ABN, but responds in a manner that protects the people charged.

Folks, this is the way our legal system works.

that may be true, however Pickle and Joy must have had some type of resolution in mind when they started this, and when they put up their page.... What was that resolution? Has it evolved into something else? If so why? Before the lawsuit there was a goal, what was that goal?

[YogusBearus]

I can not speak for anyone else involved in the "3ABN Saga", but for myself the goals have not changed. I am still a supporter of 3ABN as a ministry, that has never changed for me. My goal from the beginning was a cleansing of the "sin in the camp", a complete change of leadership on all levels, including the Board. That is still my goal.

Do I see the return of Linda Shelton as an administrator at 3ABN as part of the solution? No. I feel great compassion for an innocent woman whose reputation was ruined, first privately and then publically on international television, by a man who, while professing to be the leader of a Christian ministry, treated his wife in the most ungodly fashion possible. I believe that the SDA church has done a grave injustice to Linda Shelton. When she sought help from the upper echelons of the church, because she was unable to receive justice in either her local church or Conference, they turned their back on her situation. I believe that the public support of Linda Shelton and the clearing of her reputation within the church would be a better solution than her return to any office within a reorganized 3ABN ministry.

At this time Adventist official church support, within different world divisions, is dwindling. An example of this is the North Island New Zealand Conference no longer being willing to accept offerings and passing them on to 3ABN. Unless there is a major restructuring at 3ABN, I believe there will be a stronger movement to cut more official ties between 3ABN and the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

I would like to comment more on this subject later. These are just my immediate reactions to this new thread.

I also agree strongly with SoulEspresso, the watch word is TRUTH. I hope this situation will lead to a new transparency both within the official SDA church, self-professed supporting ministries of the church and ASI. I would like to see the end of the McNeilus era, where men of wealth and influence weld more power within the church, than a simple "thus saith the Lord".

Sister

Thank you Sister. It is refreshing to hear your clear thoughts on this. I look forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this (Bob, are you out there?).

Have our expectations changed and are we clear on what a positive resolution would look like?

-bear

[mikell]

I can not speak for anyone else involved in the “3ABN Saga”, but for myself the goals have not changed. I am still a supporter of 3ABN as a ministry, that has never changed for me. My goal from the beginning was a cleansing of the “sin in the camp”, a complete change of leadership on all levels, including the Board. That is still my goal.

Sister

We all can be encouraged that our Lord is still supporting 3ABN, when He had the merger fall through. For you and I want the cleansing from the top unto all the board members we can take heart that is what we so desire to be, is from the Lord. Praise Him for not allowing the merger! If that had taken place, it would have entrenched the corruption within 3ABN beyond any hope for the cleansing to happened, but our Lord reigns! Thank God that He intervened, for our Lord answered our prayers about putting the stop to the merger. I believe that the North New Zealand Conference is just the beginning towards those ends, when the day will soon come that there will be a total cleansing from the top throughout the board, Amen.
Sister, it is so true what the damage that Linda, who was living her life for the Lord doing great wonderful work at 3ABN, who I was there and Linda and Danny interviewed me on live 3ABN, and she was so gracious to me and Danny so distant to me.

Sister, it is so true what the damage that Linda suffered by Danny and the 3ABN board will be with her for life. Her and Danny had me on live 3ABN, he was so distant but Linda was so gracious to me, and such a Godly woman. Sadly, many other Adventist and even SDA ministers believe she committed adultery, not just spiritual but the real thing! If Danny falsly acussed Linda of adultery in Iran, Linda would have been literally stone to death! Iran is under the Islamic Law, known as Sharia law were if a woman believed to committed adultery she was to be stone to death by palm size stones. The law states that the stones cannot be bigger, for the victim will die to soon, for she has to suffer a degree of toutrue before she dies. Or if Linda was spared the death sentence, she still would have suffered, but would be a beating of 100 lashes or more. If you, those of Danny’s defenders do not believe this, just look up the cases where this is going on today! Just click on,
http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_adul1.htm site. When you read the cases that apply, replace the victim's name with "Linda's," for this would have happened to her if all of this took place in those Islamic countries today. No question, that there must be a total purge from the top and throughout the 3ABN board, to save 3ABN! That is also my goal For I too, support 3ABN just not the corruption, which must be purged, and thank God for Amazing Facts for backing out! Praise the LORD!

[Richard Sherwin]

I like the idea that what any of us could want is to simply know the truth. When the truth is revealed then we, as a church, can make an intelligent decision as to what to do. Ultimately it is the donors who will decide if 3abn continues on. Who what or where is really out of our hands, but once we know the true facts then we can put this behind us as a church and as individuals. I just pray that the lawsuit will reveal the real truth, not the bought truth.

Richard

[Clay]

We all can be encouraged that our Lord is still supporting 3ABN, when He had the merger fall through. For you and I want the cleansing from the top unto all the board members we can take heart that is what we so desire to be, is from the Lord. Praise Him for not allowing the merger! If that had taken place, it would have entrenched the corruption within 3ABN beyond any hope for the cleansing to happened, but our Lord reigns! Thank God that He intervened, for our Lord answered our prayers about putting the stop to the merger. I believe that the North New Zealand Conference is just the beginning towards those ends, when the day will soon come that there will be a total cleansing from the top throughout the board, Amen.

Was that a goal of Pickle/Joy? How did they view the proposed merger? Would that have been a satisfactory resolution?

[watchbird]

Was that a goal of Pickle/Joy? How did they view the proposed merger? Would that have been a satisfactory resolution?

I won't attempt to speak for Pickle, for he is here to speak for himself. I can speak for Joy to the extent that he has himself commented on these things in mail that I have received from him off and on over the last year.

From that I can say that from the beginning his goal was to get 3abn under Conference control. Initially, he had no idea of the depth or breadth of the problems, and thought that could be a simple job of replacing key 3abn individuals with skilled Conference personell... who would then proceed to "clean up" whatever needed to be cleaned up and transform 3abn into a truly representative arm of the SDA church. There was never any feeling from any of the letters I saw that he had any thoughts of taking any of this position or responsibility himself.... he thought of himself only as a catalyst to get things started.

It did not take long, however, for him to discover that such a simple solution would not be possible... and he turned his energies to exposing evil as it came to his attention.... for the purpose of affecting both the "court of public opinion" as well as church officials who (it was thought) would be able to "fix things" if they only knew about them.

As we experienced on BSDA for more than a year preceding Gailon's appearance... the more we learned the wider and deeper grew the problems.... and they were much wider and deeper than were ever stated here on BSDA... or on any other forum. And this same widening of our understanding continued throughout the last year. Thus by the time the merger came along, many of us "oldtimers" did NOT think that it was a satisfactory solution, and were negative about it from the very first.

Gailon, however, had hopes that this might turn out to be the vehicle by which his original goal of turning 3abn into a Conference entity might be achieved... so when that fell through, he expressed deep disappointment that it did not happen.

I personally, however, feel that the merger was no solution at all... and never had any potential for being a solution.

[watchbird]

When I read the above post by SE on another thread it struck me that I wasn't certain what this was all about. For those who feel that enormous abuses have occurred at 3abn, and I fall into that camp, what will it take for us to be satisfied that justice has been done? I was somewhat surprised to find that I wasn't really certain what the end game was.

Join the club, Yogus. I suspect that there are none, even of the "old-timers", who are "really certain what the end game" will be. I'm not sure there are any of us that even know what all the "games" that need to come to an "end" really are. Thus probably the best we can do is as observer has noted.... refrain from even trying to paint "end time scenarios" until all has been revealed... or at least much more that we know now has been revealed.

I was recently talking to a elderly couple that are avid 3abn supporters. They were visibly upset at all the negative news they were hearing about 3abn. They told me that they had it on good authority that Linda Shelton had been promised a return to her former position at 3abn and that those guys being sued were planning on taking over 3abn once Danny and company were gone. I suggested that either scenario was extremely unlikely and probably the result of a over active imagination.

Unfortunately, as is the case with a lot of rumors, there may be some kernals of truth upon which the fungus of rumor could get a start. It is true that there were some ill-advised statements made soon after Gailon appeared on the scene and before he had any real idea of the depth and breadth of the problem, that could have been interpreted as promises that Linda would be returned to "her former position at 3abn". And it is also true that it took a long time for Linda to give up the dream that she might be exhonerated and reinstated at 3abn. I do not, however, think that there was ever any basis for rumors that "those guys being sued were planning on taking over 3abn." The only "good authority" from which they could have gotten something like that would have been from someone who was echoing the 3abn propoganda lines.

That said, I would be interested in knowing what the best possible resolution to this mess is. Although Gregory recently spoke to this, I don't know that I've ever read or heard specifically what the goals of Mr. Pickle and Mr. Joy are in this. They have made an enormous effort to force the issues to this point. What is their best case scenario? Can they put to rest the rumors regarding the promised or implied return of Linda Shelton and any consideration they might have to being involved in a future 3abn?

No one can ever "put rumors to rest". The best they can do with that is to ignore them. They have both stated their views and positions often in the year they have been involved. In all the multitude of words we have heard, we would have by now heard it plain and clear if this were the case. I think we are probably missing the boat though if we speak of "best case scenario". I think we can speak of goals and accomplishments... but scenario... that can hardly be foreseen or described beforehand.

For those who have been active in this section of BSDA over the past year and a half, what is the very best resolution you could hope for?

-bear

I've been actively involved... behind the scenes, other places, as well as here.... since a few weeks after the Guam Divorce. I learned very quickly that the divorce and Linda's severence from 3abn was only the visible "ulcer" that was evidence of a widespread, and possibly even systemic "cancer" that had been affecting the "body" for a long time. I am an Adventist... and one who cares about the image that is presented of our church... and more basically how that image reflects upon the image of Christ that we show to the world. Thus my primary driving motive from the very beginning was to erase the blot on our name.... I was horrified by such affirmations as "Danny Shelton is the face of Adventism to the world", for example.

My goal.. and I think this is shared by many others... is that things like this must cease to be... and that the face of Adventism must be cleansed... and cleansed as publicly as it has been dirtied... from whatever evil doing has taken place. I am not interested in any public display of "repentance" from Danny Shelton or any of his coherts. Such public displays are worth no more than the emotion and acting skill of the person making the "confessions".

What I am interested in is the FRUITS of genuine repentance.... admission of wrong, ceasing to do wrong, and making restitution in so far as is humanly possible.

I am also interested in seeing retribution enforced by the various communities which have authority in different areas.... that includes removal from all positions in which Danny or any other employees or boardmembers are guilty of malfeasance (or misfeasance or nonfeasance), and measures taken to ensure that they never are given that kind of responsibility again... anywhere. I am interested in seeing Danny parted from his gains... and monetary restitution made to all whom he has injured or betrayed by either interfering with their opportunities for gainful employment or by misappropriating funds put under his management.

Only when the dust has settled and justice has been done will it be time to see who should end up with the ownership of the actual assets and infrastructure of 3abn. And my only personal concern in this is that it either be completely removed from Adventist association or that it become a truly representative part of the SDA church.