"what Is Proof?", with apologies to Pilate... Options

[Shepherdswife]

I have heard over and over on this board:

"There is no proof"
"They can't prove it"
"Until someone comes up with proof"
"It has not been proven"
And various other types and tenses of the same statement.

So, I would like to ask a question. Since most sexual indiscretions take place with only two people present, how do you ever prove a crime was committed? You have the alleged perp saying "Did not!" and the alleged victim saying "Did too!". There are no witnesses to corroborate either side, and since many victims don't come forward for weeks or months or even years, there is no way to examine physical evidence.

My great-grandpa denied it when my mom confronted him about molesting me. She could have said to me "It is your word against his, and you are only 8, and he is a Bible-study giving, good-doing, soymilk-making-from-scratch-and-drinking, Sabbath-keeping, tithe-paying church elder, so you better come up with some proof if you want me to believe you." What could I have provided her in that case? Or she could have said "You were old enough to know better, so since you didn't stop him, he did nothing wrong!" Our pastor, bless his heart, had no clue what to do. He just said that my mom shouldn't tell anyone else about it because it might "ruin his (grandpa's) reputation".

Is there anything that would constitute "proof" to those of you who are demanding it of TS's accusers? Short of the alleged perp confessing? Or would that even be the kind of proof you require? And if there is no way to know since there is no "proof", how does our justice system get away with convictions? The lack of conviction here has been cited as proof of innocence as well. My great-grandpa molested 3 generations of his own family--daughter, granddaughter, great-granddaughters, and who knows how many adventist schoolgirls through the years since he had access to a lot of them. But he was never convicted. Never even publically accused. That mean he didn't do it?

If you were a juror, and I could give you testimony from 6 members of my immediate family that had all had a similar experience with him, but he denied it, would you let him live next door to the church school playground where your 10 year old daughter played after school every day?

I agree, no one should be convicted without proof. So how do you define proof???

shepherdswife (who will climb off her soapbox when she can find a ladder tall enough...)

[sonshineonme]

I have heard over and over on this board:

"There is no proof"
"They can't prove it"
"Until someone comes up with proof"
"It has not been proven"
And various other types and tenses of the same statement.

So, I would like to ask a question. Since most sexual indiscretions take place with only two people present, how do you ever prove a crime was committed? You have the alleged perp saying "Did not!" and the alleged victim saying "Did too!". There are no witnesses to corroborate either side, and since many victims don't come forward for weeks or months or even years, there is no way to examine physical evidence.

My great-grandpa denied it when my mom confronted him about molesting me. She could have said to me "It is your word against his, and you are only 8, and he is a Bible-study giving, good-doing, soymilk-making-from-scratch-and-drinking, Sabbath-keeping, tithe-paying church elder, so you better come up with some proof if you want me to believe you." What could I have provided her in that case? Or she could have said "You were old enough to know better, so since you didn't stop him, he did nothing wrong!" Our pastor, bless his heart, had no clue what to do. He just said that my mom shouldn't tell anyone else about it because it might "ruin his (grandpa's) reputation".

Is there anything that would constitute "proof" to those of you who are demanding it of TS's accusers? Short of the alleged perp confessing? Or would that even be the kind of proof you require? And if there is no way to know since there is no "proof", how does our justice system get away with convictions? The lack of conviction here has been cited as proof of innocence as well. My great-grandpa molested 3 generations of his own family--daughter, granddaughter, great-granddaughters, and who knows how many adventist schoolgirls through the years since he had access to a lot of them. But he was never convicted. Never even publically accused. That mean he didn't do it?

If you were a juror, and I could give you testimony from 6 members of my immediate family that had all had a similar experience with him, but he denied it, would you let him live next door to the church school playground where your 10 year old daughter played after school every day?

I agree, no one should be convicted without proof. So how do you define proof???

shepherdswife (who will climb off her soapbox when she can find a ladder tall enough...)

Yes, this sounds like a definite problem. Proof. This is what I have learned. By experience, in my family, as a kid involved in others family issues regarding this type of thing, and as a jurur (and foreman) on a jury where an upstanding mormon leader (in his local church) was accused of molesting a 14 year old student of his (karate lessons). We realized AT FIRST, sitting on this jury, that it seemed it would be not only a he said/she said situation, but then bring in the communities of each (more they say, they say), and there ya go...there is all there is, right? WRONG.

It was not enough. What the defense lawyer and defendant didn't realize was that he had a HISTORY with this "problem" and it was about to come out in the court room. And what they didn't expect was that others from his past would FINALLY come forward. They would not come to the court room. I think that was good actually, as it turned out. They gave recorded video testimony, telling their stories of what happend, painful detail after detail, and though they were a long distance away, lived far away, they did not know the girl currently accusing him, they did not want to face him personally in the court room. They were afraid they could not follow through...why you may ask? HE WAS FAMILY to them. It was clear, after putting all the DETAILS together, listening, painfully picturing and hearing testimony after testimony, that the similarities were the clincher. There is always a pattern...always. I guess you would say it's the dead-give-a-way of the crime. It was clearly proof. Some things couldn't be made up, and your gut and instincts tell you that what you are piecing together is truth. That's how it works, a puzzle of pieces that fit very well together. You are left with no doubt.

Now, if you are the "only one" that you know of that has been abused, I'm not sure what you can do, but tell everyone until you get someone to listen, I feel they will be able to tell you are not lieing, because body language and consistency tell so much about honestly, and someone will have to realize that they can not live in denail about painful possibilitiy of what is being told to them.

I hope times has changed, and that more and more victoms will realize that they are not alone at all - that there are MANY in their positions, and that coming together for support to deal with things head on is part of the healing process. It is also what will help bring more of this out in the open, and I would think cause perpatrators to at least have some thought of how their fellow perpatrators were told on. If the momentum can change about this taboo and painful subject, it has to help everyone. That is why support groups exist. It gets things out in the open, causes those who have caused pain and suffereing to be exposed, and no more secrets.

In the "olden" days, these things went on in families, and no one even told the other family members, and that occured even in my family where a daugter was raped by her step-father and she could not bring herself to tell her own mother. She was a grown adult - over 18, and didn't want to hurt her mother. When she told me about it, she was in the same pain that she felt some 25 or more years earlier, tears, frustration, anger, it didn't help to keep it in, and it didn't help to tell me then. It was too late for her, the people that should have been told were not. Every time I think of that situation, I think of how UNFAIR it was to her mother not to know what kind of man she was married to. What he did to her daughter, and I wonder had she been given the choice to know or not know, what she would have chosen. I think she would have wanted to know. She would have belived her daugter and she would have made some serious changes. Maybe the daugter felt that anything that happend after she told her mother, whether it went bad or good, would have been her fault too, because she felt responsible for bringing about the change due to information.

I hope that how people would answer now-a-days would reflect more of a "tell me, I have to deal with it" type of attitude, to confront and as people do that, it has to hurt the in the shadows way that these men get away with this - thinking they can by manipulating the victom. That no one will tell. It's hard, I know. But, we have seen too much and heard too many stories now that we are to the year 2007, and if people aren't brave enough to come forward, can they expect anything to change for the next person? The next child, family, stranger, victom? They need to know that everyone will stand with them and give them the courage they need to beat the monstor that beats them down, emotionally, physically and mentally.

Did anyone see the news today about the babtist pastor in IL (yes, IL) that is a sexual predator (registered I believe) that has been preaching in the pulpit with parishoniers that have known of his problem? These things need to stop, and the more media attention and outspokenness that is done about it, I feel it will help.

"Be bold, be brave, for the Lord thy God is with thee" - and that works for victoms too.

[Johann]

The stories told by both of you are so similar to what I have met in my ministry - to people that are very close to my heart. What elders and godly people, and family members have done has had unbelievable, but lasting consequences and ruined lives, even after confessions were forced out in the open.

It is especially difficult to be a pastor also to the guilty person who claims he is innocent, or does everything to minimize his guilt.

[SoulEspresso]

Our pastor, bless his heart, had no clue what to do. He just said that my mom shouldn't tell anyone else about it because it might "ruin his (grandpa's) reputation".

"Bless his heart" ... and fire him. There is no excuse for this kind of official sanctioning.

I salute you, SW, for writing this. You must have had quite a journey to come to a place where you could post it.

[Shepherdswife]

"Bless his heart" ... and fire him. There is no excuse for this kind of official sanctioning.

I salute you, SW, for writing this. You must have had quite a journey to come to a place where you could post it.

I would feel the same way about our pastor if it had happened since resources have become available on the subject. But in those years, there was very little, as far as I know. My mom said that he didn't actually say that he didn't believe it, but she got the distinct impression that he didn't. Had he thought it was true, what would he have said/done? Who knows. No one talked about such things back then. Which is why it kept happening...
Silence is the soil in which abuse thrives...

The amazing that was that my mom, without any "professionals" to help her, did all the right things. She believed us, she confronted him, told him to never touch us again, and then made sure he never had access to us again. She didn't do anything legally, but back then, with no "proof", I doubt that anything could have been done.

Thanks, SE, and yes to the journey. I am blessed.

[Nandina]

Blessings on all of you who have endured the emotional disaster left in the wake of sexual abuse. Your courage is inspiring.
With regard to Tommy Shelton, I have never actually heard anyone say that he denied the things he is accused of. I know there are many who run interference for him, and they adamantly deny these things, I imagine from a blind hope that it is all a lie.
But I am sure if someone were to interview all the accusers, there would likewise be that thread of similiarity in their stories - Tommy being "open" and "vulnerable", allowing personal questions, giving personal attention, confessing that HE was a victim of sexual abuse (Will the cycle be unbroken---), confusion over his own sexual identity... I would surmise all have experienced some or all of these ploys during the process of TS making the connection... very manipulative, and with varying degrees of success, depending on the target.
So indeed it begs the question "What is proof?" Is it only "real" if it happened to you or to your child? What will it take?
My prayer is that those who have been victimized will find a voice, and perhaps even find each other... Regardless of the statute of limitations, confrontation is needed. TS needs to face the havoc he has wrought and be heartbroken over it.

This post has been edited by Nandina: Aug 22 2007, 10:09 AM

[Shepherdswife]

I'm still waiting....

To say that there is no proof tells me that there is something that could be called proof if it were available. Tell me what it would be??

[Johann]

I'm still waiting....

To say that there is no proof tells me that there is something that could be called proof if it were available. Tell me what it would be??

Still waiting, but hopefully not in vain. The time is coming, and is now, that more realize that truth is not in them. It seems too bad that a court case seems essential

[Shepherdswife]

YES!! I finally found something!!

I had to run all the way through the other threads, since the ones asking for proof did not post here, but I found the definition of proof anyway!

Here is is, from panther...

"You have absolutely no proof of any such charges brought against 3abn except as people have gossiped about them. Nothing that can be proven in court."

OK, that I can work with! If it can be proven in court, it is proof, right? Makes sense to me.

Found an interesting paragraph of a study of sexual abuse cases that actually (drum roll) went to court.
(Warning to the squeamish--real words used in this study)

PEDIATRICS Vol. 88 No. 3 September 1991, pp. 506-511
Legal Proof of Child Sexual Abuse in the Absence of Physical Evidence
Allan R. De Jong MD1 and Mimi Rose JD2
1 The Department of Pediatrics, Jefferson Medical College of Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
2 Philadelphia District Attorney's Office

Child sexual abuse criminal court cases from a 12-month period were reviewed to determine the frequency and significance of physical evidence in legally "proven" felony cases with penetration. One hundred fifteen consecutive cases were reviewed, and 87 (76%) had resulted in conviction of the perpetrator on felony charges. Charges of vaginal rape were made in 88 cases, and oral and/or anal sodomy in 67 cases. Physical evidence was present in only 23% of all cases that resulted in felony convictions. Felony convictions were obtained in 67 (79%) of 85 cases without physical evidence and in only 20 (67%) of 30 cases with physical evidence. Eight of the 10 cases without physical evidence that did not result in conviction involved victims younger than 7 years of age. Cases involving the youngest victims had a significantly lower conviction rate (12 of 23), despite a very high frequency (13 of 23) of physical evidence (P<.0005). Physical evidence was neither predictive nor essential for conviction. Successful prosecution, particularly in cases involving the youngest victims, depended on the quality of the verbal evidence and the effectiveness of the child victim's testimony.

Key Words: sexual abuse • child abuse • legal intervention • courtroom evidence

So, in the cases of sexual abuse that went to court in this study, proof consisted of verbal evidence, and in 77% of the cases, it was enough to bring about conviction.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what think ye?

[PeacefulBe]

In light of this De Jong/Rose study it seems apparent that if the cycle of silence and fear surrounding sexual abuse can be broken, the words of the victims hold significant weight in the courtrooms of today. Sexual predators and those who support the cover-ups to keep them from facing accountability should take notice. But will they?

Perhaps a good follow-up study would be to examine the reasons that these victims had the strength and support to bring the charges forward in the first place. We know that they are the exception, that so many more remain in silence. If we could learn what broke the cycle for these individuals, we might be able to have the tools to encourage a greater number of victims to break free of the chains that keep them powerless and mute.

[Johann]

In light of this De Jong/Rose study it seems apparent that if the cycle of silence and fear surrounding sexual abuse can be broken, the words of the victims hold significant weight in the courtrooms of today. Sexual predators and those who support the cover-ups to keep them from facing accountability should take notice. But will they?

Perhaps a good follow-up study would be to examine the reasons that these victims had the strength and support to bring the charges forward in the first place. We know that they are the exception, that so many more remain in silence. If we could learn what broke the cycle for these individuals, we might be able to have the tools to encourage a greater number of victims to break free of the chains that keep them powerless and mute.

I know from my pastoral work that your statements are so true. May God have mercy on the victims. So many are suffering in this evil world. May our proclamation of the true gospel bring the salvation from this evil to our people.