Rhema: The Basic Belief Of The "word Of Faith Movement"..., How does it relate to Adventism? Options

[Brick Step]

“IOW?” I notice it’s used a quite often in posts, but still haven’t figured out what it stands for. Am I the only one?! Could somebody please decode.

By the way, SoulEspresso, appreciated your drawing attention to the following simple rule on how we should use Scripture. Amazing how easy it is at times to miss the simple and the obvious.

... To the topic: as far as "rhema affirmations" go, why don't we turn it around? This is what I'd like to ask:

Throughout Scripture, we see how books written later in the history of the Bible refer to, allude to, or quote directly passages of previous Scripture--particularly the NT of the OT....

[watchbird]

“IOW?” I notice it’s used a quite often in posts, but still haven’t figured out what it stands for. Am I the only one?! Could somebody please decode.

By the way, SoulEspresso, appreciated your drawing attention to the following simple rule on how we should use Scripture. Amazing how easy it is at times to miss the simple and the obvious.

IOW = "In Other Words"

And yes, when someone uses... or misuses.... scripture by selective, out of context, quoting... especially when it is emotionally tied to their personal experiences.... it iw VERY easy to miss 1) the context of the scripture they quote, 2) the scriptural basis for their use of the scripture they quote, and especially 3) the scripture they don't quote at all.

[Brick Step]

Thank you again, Inga. I do respect the fact that you have knowledge, insights and experience on this issue that I do not. I am trying to understand, and have more than one reason for wanting to.

The paragraph below sets off further thoughts.

... If she were, indeed, a special mouth piece for God, I would hardly expect her to make such utterly wrongful statements about Danny Shelton (favorable), Linda Shelton (unfavorable) and Alyssa Moore (downright slanderous). The teaching that the end justifies the means is not in my Bible, but I wonder if it's something that Shelley Quinn believes in....

Does the fact that somebody might make even a terribly wrong judgment on one issue, cancel out the whole witness for good that a person might make? Some of the struggle I am experiencing in dealing with some posts on this 3ABN saga has to do with my own spiritual journey in dealing with an experience in which I am by no means the only one who believes I was seriously wronged. It’s an experience which on a much smaller scale I believe contains some of the elements of this 3ABN controversy. I am determined to maintain my hold upon Jesus. I do not wish to give ground one way or another that could be used by the devil as a foothold to drag me and others off course. It’s an old illustration, but: when a lion roars in the east, the tendency is to flee due west, with all speed, and in the straightest possible course. But the devouring lions set the trap and planned for this response all along.

I have been forced to choose between two options. I could decide to become bitter, get a fix on the situation, give up on Jesus (the thought never crossed my mind), and throw away the church altogether. But to me that is equivalent to running from one roaring lion into the jaws of its waiting mate. I’m learning more and more that “fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” and the only avenue to true victory.

I'm sure I have not done it perfectly, but by God's grace I have chosen to walk the high road, cling to Jesus all the more tightly, knowing He will do the same to me (He has! Praise His name! Halleluliah!), - and remember that because members and workers might make a very wrong judgment in one set of circumstances (even if it goes against me) does not mean I am perfect and they are all badness. They are just fallible mortals desperately in need of a Saviour - as am I and my friends. In other circumstances they might have made or be making very right judgments that deserve my respect and support. I have to accept that for some matters to be understood may require that more water flow under the bridge, as they say. Sometimes that might even mean waiting until all of us have access to the heavenly records during the millennium. It appears we all will be asking lots of questions during this time, surprised at how differently Christ has judged some people and happenings on earth. I know I cannot maintain my connection with Jesus and think differently on this issue.

I’m remembering that Luther and Calvin placed their vote behind one or two extremely cruel judgments, even to the torturing and killing of persons who did not line up to their interpretation of Scripture. They did not understand religious liberty. God holds us accountable when He provides opportunity to understand a mistake and repent of it. But because a person is in serious error on one issue does not of necessity wipe out their entire witness for God’s cause.

I do not live in USA. I have never really gotten into Shelley Quinn’s Exalting His Word (EHW) nor knowingly and personally met anyone who has. I’m feeling this is not my priority to sort through (but of course, let those be faithful who have been thus called). However I do have Shelley and Danny’s book, Ten Commandments Twice Removed (TCTR), have read it through, been impressed, felt inspired to hand out copies to others, and have noted the tremendous impact for good it has made upon the thinking of probably millions, in association with the 3ABN witness on the Ten Commandments Weekend. I’m inclined to believe the charges that there are serious flaws in EHW. But even though I believe faults with EHW must be exposed if they are there, I am very wary of focussing upon the negatives of EHW in a manner that undoes or minimizes the work of the overall TCTR witness (and much else of Shelley's witness), so obviously owned by Providence.

Likewise, in judging this 3ABN debacle, I feel very cautioned to bear in mind the Bible’s description of the proportions of the controversy that is raging upon this earth. This means remembering that the battle is bigger even than the huge debate that has followed in the wake of the bitter divorce of Danny and Linda. It means that 3ABN is bigger than either Danny or Linda or any behind-the-scenes (?) troubles that have been discussed. (Placing Hope and LLBN under the microscope would surely reveal serious imperfections of witness there, too.)

Isaiah 58 still applies, beginning to end. Amen! To those who have suffered an injustice, what an encouragement when others speak out on their behalf, and how many others are thus saved further pain and abuse!

If a ministry is built around the witness of just one or two persons, and those one or two persons fall into sin or somehow apostatize, then it is wisdom to have that whole ministry shut down or disowned by the church. But 3ABN does not fall into such a category. 3ABN facilitates the witness of scores of faithful workers and ministries. 3ABN to us is evangelists like Doug Batchelor, Kenneth Cox, Steve Wohlberg, David Asscherick, Shawn Boonstra, Lyle Albright, and a host of others who are testifying to the all-round truths of the Bible and Seventh-day Adventism. This is the 3ABN that our home prays will be protected and saved for God’s work.

I take this opportunity to rejoice again--hopefully with all parties involved in the 3ABN saga--in the promise of Romans 8:28. "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to his purpose."

[lurker]

When there was rebellion in heaven, there were the angels who rebeled and those who stayed loyal to God. At one time, we are told, Lucifer's heart was touched and he could have turned back but he hardened his heart.

At the time of the creation of the earth, there were only two classes of creatures, those who rebelled (sinned) and didn't repent and those who remained loyal (never sinned) and so had no need of repentance.

To show His love and prove His character God needed another class of person, those who repent and are reconciled. God didn't cause man to sin but He knew that man would choose to sin and some men would repent. Through the cross, the true nature of God as both merciful and just was demonstrated. God forgave mankind and gave us a chance to repent. The love, the loyalty to God and to His law by repenting sinners would demonstrate to the watching universe that forgiveness was and is productive of great good for all and that unforgiveness is counterproductive and hurtful.

The forgiveness of the father contrasted with the spite of the older brother toward the prodigal, and God's mercy over the repentence of Nineveh contrasted with Jonah's mercilessness are examples of this.

I feel that JG is shaking hands with the troublemakers, patting them on the back, praising them while slipping them out the back door. I'm sure he looks upon himself and is looked upon by others as a peacemaker because he has tact and diplomacy. This may save face for the ministry and for the church but any chance for the erring ones to repent and be reconciled to God is lost.

[watchbird]

Thank you again, Inga. I do respect the fact that you have knowledge, insights and experience on this issue that I do not. I am trying to understand, and have more than one reason for wanting to.

Does the fact that somebody might make even a terribly wrong judgment on one issue, cancel out the whole witness for good that a person might make? Some of the struggle I am experiencing in dealing with some posts on this 3ABN saga has to do with my own spiritual journey in dealing with an experience in which I am by no means the only one who believes I was seriously wronged.

I think your answer so far as applying this to 3abn lies in the phrase "on one issue". It is true that very good people make some very bad judgements at times.... and sometimes grievously wound someone else in the process. And the wounded then has to make a decision ... a unilateral decision... on how to relate to the person and that experience.

If it is indeed a single instance... then possibly the wounded person should not press the issue, but should handle it by sheer determination to "hang on to Jesus" as you have described. The problem with this is that it is difficult ... or perhaps impossible... to know whether it is really an isolated incident, or only one in a series.... which those around have helped the perpetrator keep concealed from public view, thus preparing the way for the next victim.

But there is very little correlation when applying this to the 3abn saga. For in the case of Danny Shelton, his family and other associates... including his "board of Directors".... who have aided him in operating as he wishes... and who have covered his ... and their .... many offences against numerous victims.... the pattern of abuse and wrongdoing is widespread and has existed for decades..... and is a blot, not only on our church, but on the body of Christ as a whole.... and therefore, it simply cannot be tolerated... no matter how much good others may be enabled to do by their messages broadcast on 3abn.

(I'm clipping your personal experience, but not meaning to minimize its importance by so doing.)

I do not live in USA. I have never really gotten into Shelley Quinn’s Exalting His Word (EHW) nor knowingly and personally met anyone who has. I’m feeling this is not my priority to sort through (but of course, let those be faithful who have been thus called). However I do have Shelley and Danny’s book, Ten Commandments Twice Removed (TCTR), have read it through, been impressed, felt inspired to hand out copies to others, and have noted the tremendous impact for good it has made upon the thinking of probably millions, in association with the 3ABN witness on the Ten Commandments Weekend. I’m inclined to believe the charges that there are serious flaws in EHW. But even though I believe faults with EHW must be exposed if they are there, I am very wary of focussing upon the negatives of EHW in a manner that undoes or minimizes the work of the overall TCTR witness (and much else of Shelley's witness), so obviously owned by Providence.

The point in examining the Quinn book goes beyond what is said in that book. From things she has said on the air as well as what she says in that book, it is obvious that she is looking at scripture through the lens of certain Word/Faith presuppositions. If one does not understand what those presuppositions are, then one is not going to realize how seriously her views are in opposition to sound Biblical principles... both doctrines and practices. But no matter what she says... at any time... she will retain her basic presuppositions and lace her sermons with those.... until such a time that someone seriously works with her to show her the error she is holding. So unless she is removed from the 3abn lineup... and her books withdrawn.... she will still be mixing the water of life from the Word with the polluted streams from which Word/Faith presuppositions were pulled.

Likewise, in judging this 3ABN debacle, I feel very cautioned to bear in mind the Bible’s description of the proportions of the controversy that is raging upon this earth. This means remembering that the battle is bigger even than the huge debate that has followed in the wake of the bitter divorce of Danny and Linda. It means that 3ABN is bigger than either Danny or Linda or any behind-the-scenes (?) troubles that have been discussed. (Placing Hope and LLBN under the microscope would surely reveal serious imperfections of witness there, too.)

Isaiah 58 still applies, beginning to end. Amen! To those who have suffered an injustice, what an encouragement when others speak out on their behalf, and how many others are thus saved further pain and abuse!

If a ministry is built around the witness of just one or two persons, and those one or two persons fall into sin or somehow apostatize, then it is wisdom to have that whole ministry shut down or disowned by the church. But 3ABN does not fall into such a category.

You are both correct and incorrect here. While it is true that 3abn provides the vehicle for others to use, and while it is true that 3abn is not only just Danny Shelton.... it is also true that he is not the only one to "fall into sin" nor promulgate false doctrine and practics. Scripture asks the question... can a stream give both bitter water and good water?.... with the obvious answer being "No". While there is no problem with Adventist speakers utilizing air-waves that are owned and controlled by those who are not in agreement with Adventist beliefs and practics.... there IS a problem... and a huge problem... when a network is owned and controlled by Adventists.... yet neither handles "sin in the camp" nor makes sure that its speakers, Directors, and ministerial staff at least have the same set of presuppositions, even if they were to differ in some minor doctrinal issues.

3ABN facilitates the witness of scores of faithful workers and ministries. 3ABN to us is evangelists like Doug Batchelor, Kenneth Cox, Steve Wohlberg, David Asscherick, Shawn Boonstra, Lyle Albright, and a host of others who are testifying to the all-round truths of the Bible and Seventh-day Adventism. This is the 3ABN that our home prays will be protected and saved for God’s work.

You are obviously an Adventist, and one who is strong in the faith.... so you can pick and choose what you consider to be true Adventist presenters. The network does not minister exclusively to those like yourself...... but it aims to present Adventist truths to all ... including those who know nothing of Christianity, much less of the differences between Christian groups. How are they to know which is truth and which is error if both are presented? Will they not be attracted most to the one which matches most closely their own "worldview".... to the one who most enthusiastically presents messages based on personal experience? And if those presentations are laced with scripture... how will the one not familiar with scripture know whether or not scripture is being presented accurately?

I take this opportunity to rejoice again--hopefully with all parties involved in the 3ABN saga--in the promise of Romans 8:28. "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to his purpose."

What about someone who may have been called... but have inserted their own "purposes" in place of those of God, and both taught and practiced things which are contrary to God's word? How does one define "good" for "all parties involved" when one group "involved" are perpetrators of evil and one group are the victims of the perpetrators?

Somewhere.... in order to be "good" for the victims... and for potential victims in the future... "good" has to involve an exposure and expulsion of those who have "done wickedly".

[watchbird]

When there was rebellion in heaven, there were the angels who rebeled and those who stayed loyal to God. At one time, we are told, Lucifer's heart was touched and he could have turned back but he hardened his heart.

At the time of the creation of the earth, there were only two classes of creatures, those who rebelled (sinned) and didn't repent and those who remained loyal (never sinned) and so had no need of repentance.

To show His love and prove His character God needed another class of person, those who repent and are reconciled. God didn't cause man to sin but He knew that man would choose to sin and some men would repent. Through the cross, the true nature of God as both merciful and just was demonstrated. God forgave mankind and gave us a chance to repent. The love, the loyalty to God and to His law by repenting sinners would demonstrate to the watching universe that forgiveness was and is productive of great good for all and that unforgiveness is counterproductive and hurtful.

The forgiveness of the father contrasted with the spite of the older brother toward the prodigal, and God's mercy over the repentence of Nineveh contrasted with Jonah's mercilessness are examples of this.

I feel that JG is shaking hands with the troublemakers, patting them on the back, praising them while slipping them out the back door. I'm sure he looks upon himself and is looked upon by others as a peacemaker because he has tact and diplomacy. This may save face for the ministry and for the church but any chance for the erring ones to repent and be reconciled to God is lost.

I think you make some very good points here, Lurker, and ones that we should keep uppermost in our mind. I do however, question your comment about "slipping them out the back door". I don't think we have seen any evidence so far that he is even quietly ridding the camp of those who need to seriously repent. And at this point in the saga, I do not think that even apparent repentance should be sufficient to retain those in connection with 3abn... in ANY status.... who have previously been a part of the wrongs promulgated and covered up there.

[inga]

Thank you again, Inga.

Thank you for your reply, Brick Step. I won't respond to all the points made regarding "this issue" (i.e. Shelley Quinn's teachings in Exalting the Word because I believe Watchbird has covered the ground.)

Does the fact that somebody might make even a terribly wrong judgment on one issue, cancel out the whole witness for good that a person might make?

Not necessarily. It depends on the nature of the wrong judgment and whether or not the person repents of the wrong done when the evidence becomes obvious.

I am reminded of a statement by Ellen White found in Education p. 150:
"The strongest bulwark of vice in our world is not the iniquitous life of the abandoned sinner or the degraded outcast; it is that life which otherwise appears virtuous, honorable, and noble, but in which one sin is fostered, one vice indulged. To the soul that is struggling in secret against some giant temptation, trembling upon the very verge of the precipice, such an example is one of the most powerful enticements to sin. He who, endowed with high conceptions of life and truth and honor, does yet willfully transgress one precept of God's holy law, has perverted his noble gifts into a lure to sin. Genius, talent, sympathy, even generous and kindly deeds, may thus become decoys of Satan to entice souls over the precipice of ruin."

While Ellen is here writing specifically of one "sin," I believe the principle applies as well to one teaching that is in error. In other places she writes that it is not only God who is eager to bring converts into the church. Satan works also to bring in converts that will poison the pure truth of the gospel in one way or another.

I have no insight into Shelley Quinn's heart, and the sincerity of her profession is not what we are questioning here. We are questioning the correctness of her teaching. And we must examine this for ourselves. We dare not take her word for it.

Some of the struggle I am experiencing in dealing with some posts on this 3ABN saga has to do with my own spiritual journey in dealing with an experience in which I am by no means the only one who believes I was seriously wronged.

I suspect that quite a few of us here can identify with you. I certainly can.

It’s an experience which on a much smaller scale I believe contains some of the elements of this 3ABN controversy. I am determined to maintain my hold upon Jesus. I do not wish to give ground one way or another that could be used by the devil as a foothold to drag me and others off course. It’s an old illustration, but: when a lion roars in the east, the tendency is to flee due west, with all speed, and in the straightest possible course. But the devouring lions set the trap and planned for this response all along.

Good illustration.

I have been forced to choose between two options. I could decide to become bitter, get a fix on the situation, give up on Jesus (the thought never crossed my mind), and throw away the church altogether.

For me there was another option that I considered taking. Since the issue was one with a local conference as a "corporation," and I knew that others had been victims of similar policies (or lack of them) and had consequently left the church or hung around the edges, I considered taking the issue through the various levels of church bureaucracy in order to bring about a change in policy from the General Conference on down. However, I felt I was not strong enough spiritually to hang in there with the Lord and the battle with the corporate church. So I let it drop. Perhaps it was a cop-out for me. I still don't know. I do know that years later my husband and I were rather closely involved with one of the principals responsible for the wrong done. In this instance, the person was responsible for a lot of good done.

But to me that is equivalent to running from one roaring lion into the jaws of its waiting mate. I’m learning more and more that "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" and the only avenue to true victory.

I'm sure I have not done it perfectly, but by God's grace I have chosen to walk the high road, cling to Jesus all the more tightly, knowing He will do the same to me (He has! Praise His name! Halleluliah!)

Praise God for your testimony.

- and remember that because members and workers might make a very wrong judgment in one set of circumstances (even if it goes against me) does not mean I am perfect and they are all badness. They are just fallible mortals desperately in need of a Saviour - as am I and my friends. In other circumstances they might have made or be making very right judgments that deserve my respect and support.

Yes, indeed. That describes my experience exactly.

I have to accept that for some matters to be understood may require that more water flow under the bridge, as they say. Sometimes that might even mean waiting until all of us have access to the heavenly records during the millennium. It appears we all will be asking lots of questions during this time, surprised at how differently Christ has judged some people and happenings on earth. I know I cannot maintain my connection with Jesus and think differently on this issue.

I’m remembering that Luther and Calvin placed their vote behind one or two extremely cruel judgments, even to the torturing and killing of persons who did not line up to their interpretation of Scripture. They did not understand religious liberty. God holds us accountable when He provides opportunity to understand a mistake and repent of it. But because a person is in serious error on one issue does not of necessity wipe out their entire witness for God’s cause.

I agree entirely with what you write above. However, that does not mean that we must accept that "serious error" that the person is teaching. And I note that Luther and Calvin's example does not quite fit the current scenario with Shelley Quinn.

Luther and Calvin came out of dark error, and they were leading a reform movement. They did not leave all error behind at once. And, at times, Luther did not practice all the truth he knew because he felt the people could not follow. That was probably legitimate.

In the current situation, God has already led a people in a great reform movement. Shelley Quinn's teaching are going back to darkness, so to speak. It is a revival of another version of error that was already encountered earlier in the history of our denomination. But I'll leave the details of that to Watchbird who is better qualified to deal with the subject.

As for 3ABN being a "ministry" built by God, that is somewhat debatable. (Your understanding my differ.) 3ABN is a Television Network. It has been marketed as a Seventh-day Adventist network and thus has carried a lot of Seventh-day Adventist programming. Many of the "miracles" cited in its inception have turned out to be manufactured. So whether God established 3ABN or whether man established 3ABN is open to question, and we may never know until the hereafter. It is possible that God allowed 3ABN to develop as "second best" because those in a position to do the work in the organized church body did not have the will or the faith to do it even when they were pointed in that direction.

Let us praise God for the way God has been able to use 3ABN. We do not need to give the credit to any man or any group of individuals. God sometimes uses people in spite of themselves.
[edited for spelling]

This post has been edited by inga: Oct 18 2007, 03:19 PM

[inga]

You are obviously an Adventist, and one who is strong in the faith.... so you can pick and choose what you consider to be true Adventist presenters. The network does not minister exclusively to those like yourself...... but it aims to present Adventist truths to all ... including those who know nothing of Christianity, much less of the differences between Christian groups. How are they to know which is truth and which is error if both are presented? Will they not be attracted most to the one which matches most closely their own "worldview".... to the one who most enthusiastically presents messages based on personal experience? And if those presentations are laced with scripture... how will the one not familiar with scripture know whether or not scripture is being presented accurately?

This is the serious issue we must consider.

And I think Watchbird for the observation that those watching a network with a variety of programming will "be attracted most to the one which matches most closely their own "worldview".... to the one who most enthusiastically presents messages based on personal experience." It's something that is obviously true, but not something I had taken into particular consideration.

That would mean, among other things, that those from a background similar to Shelley Quinn's -- folks who have been taught to leave behind some of those errors -- will be attracted to her teachings and will go back to embrace the errors they had more or less left behind ... That explains why some people are so much more susceptible to certain teachings than others ...

[Brick Step]

Inga, thank you again for the insightful comments.

[Johann]

This is the serious issue we must consider.

And I think Watchbird for the observation that those watching a network with a variety of programming will "be attracted most to the one which matches most closely their own "worldview".... to the one who most enthusiastically presents messages based on personal experience." It's something that is obviously true, but not something I had taken into particular consideration.

That would mean, among other things, that those from a background similar to Shelley Quinn's -- folks who have been taught to leave behind some of those errors -- will be attracted to her teachings and will go back to embrace the errors they had more or less left behind ... That explains why some people are so much more susceptible to certain teachings than others ...

All that is neccessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing!

Edmund Burke

[mystery- man]

Thank you again, Inga. I do respect the fact that you have knowledge, insights and experience on this issue that I do not. I am trying to understand, and have more than one reason for wanting to.

The paragraph below sets off further thoughts.

Does the fact that somebody might make even a terribly wrong judgment on one issue, cancel out the whole witness for good that a person might make? Some of the struggle I am experiencing in dealing with some posts on this 3ABN saga has to do with my own spiritual journey in dealing with an experience in which I am by no means the only one who believes I was seriously wronged. It’s an experience which on a much smaller scale I believe contains some of the elements of this 3ABN controversy. I am determined to maintain my hold upon Jesus. I do not wish to give ground one way or another that could be used by the devil as a foothold to drag me and others off course. It’s an old illustration, but: when a lion roars in the east, the tendency is to flee due west, with all speed, and in the straightest possible course. But the devouring lions set the trap and planned for this response all along.

I have been forced to choose between two options. I could decide to become bitter, get a fix on the situation, give up on Jesus (the thought never crossed my mind), and throw away the church altogether. But to me that is equivalent to running from one roaring lion into the jaws of its waiting mate. I’m learning more and more that “fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” and the only avenue to true victory.

I'm sure I have not done it perfectly, but by God's grace I have chosen to walk the high road, cling to Jesus all the more tightly, knowing He will do the same to me (He has! Praise His name! Halleluliah!), - and remember that because members and workers might make a very wrong judgment in one set of circumstances (even if it goes against me) does not mean I am perfect and they are all badness. They are just fallible mortals desperately in need of a Saviour - as am I and my friends. In other circumstances they might have made or be making very right judgments that deserve my respect and support. I have to accept that for some matters to be understood may require that more water flow under the bridge, as they say. Sometimes that might even mean waiting until all of us have access to the heavenly records during the millennium. It appears we all will be asking lots of questions during this time, surprised at how differently Christ has judged some people and happenings on earth. I know I cannot maintain my connection with Jesus and think differently on this issue.

I’m remembering that Luther and Calvin placed their vote behind one or two extremely cruel judgments, even to the torturing and killing of persons who did not line up to their interpretation of Scripture. They did not understand religious liberty. God holds us accountable when He provides opportunity to understand a mistake and repent of it. But because a person is in serious error on one issue does not of necessity wipe out their entire witness for God’s cause.

I do not live in USA. I have never really gotten into Shelley Quinn’s Exalting His Word (EHW) nor knowingly and personally met anyone who has. I’m feeling this is not my priority to sort through (but of course, let those be faithful who have been thus called). However I do have Shelley and Danny’s book, Ten Commandments Twice Removed (TCTR), have read it through, been impressed, felt inspired to hand out copies to others, and have noted the tremendous impact for good it has made upon the thinking of probably millions, in association with the 3ABN witness on the Ten Commandments Weekend. I’m inclined to believe the charges that there are serious flaws in EHW. But even though I believe faults with EHW must be exposed if they are there, I am very wary of focussing upon the negatives of EHW in a manner that undoes or minimizes the work of the overall TCTR witness (and much else of Shelley's witness), so obviously owned by Providence.

Likewise, in judging this 3ABN debacle, I feel very cautioned to bear in mind the Bible’s description of the proportions of the controversy that is raging upon this earth. This means remembering that the battle is bigger even than the huge debate that has followed in the wake of the bitter divorce of Danny and Linda. It means that 3ABN is bigger than either Danny or Linda or any behind-the-scenes (?) troubles that have been discussed. (Placing Hope and LLBN under the microscope would surely reveal serious imperfections of witness there, too.)

Isaiah 58 still applies, beginning to end. Amen! To those who have suffered an injustice, what an encouragement when others speak out on their behalf, and how many others are thus saved further pain and abuse!

If a ministry is built around the witness of just one or two persons, and those one or two persons fall into sin or somehow apostatize, then it is wisdom to have that whole ministry shut down or disowned by the church. But 3ABN does not fall into such a category. 3ABN facilitates the witness of scores of faithful workers and ministries. 3ABN to us is evangelists like Doug Batchelor, Kenneth Cox, Steve Wohlberg, David Asscherick, Shawn Boonstra, Lyle Albright, and a host of others who are testifying to the all-round truths of the Bible and Seventh-day Adventism. This is the 3ABN that our home prays will be protected and saved for God’s work.

I take this opportunity to rejoice again--hopefully with all parties involved in the 3ABN saga--in the promise of Romans 8:28. "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to his purpose."

I am so reminded of the religious leaders in the bible and how they distorted the truth enough to keep the peoples confidence and at the same time control the minds of the people. Their power came from the fact that they called themselves the chosen of God and thus surmised that nothing could be done to remove them from that position because it was given by God Himself. They to a large part were the reason that the people of God rejected. (more) later.

[mystery- man]

I am so reminded of the religious leaders in the bible and how they distorted the truth enough to keep the peoples confidence and at the same time control the minds of the people. Their power came from the fact that they called themselves the chosen of God and thus surmised that nothing could be done to remove them from that position because it was given by God Himself. They to a large part were the reason that the people of God rejected Jesus. There is a saying "a little bit of honey makes the medicine go down". The first day churches also preach some good things but they completely dismiss the sabbath, the state of the dead and many other things, should we support them also? Half truth will never do no matter who is telling it, a half truth is a whole lie. Satan will always present a half truth or truth mixed with error to lead people astray. Ellen White would say that in the last days we would have to stand alone, why? Because we are not to follow men or institutions when they turn their back on God no matter how sincere or how much truth they might fein to have. I wonder how many might be lost because they are following a man made institution instead of the Savior, God is not dead. The funny thing to me is the God that called the earth into existence that set the stars in space that formed man from the dust of the earth that destroyed the earth with a flood that confounded the speech of man........ And we believe that God cannot spread the message without 3ABN what a shame. I believe that untill apologies are made and things set straight that we should not support them. Neither should we listen to their voices which say they speak for the Lord as though God must use them. (GOD IS NOT DEAD).

[Rosyroi]

mystery-man said"

" And we believe that God cannot spread the message without 3ABN what a shame."

I just wanted to add my "AMEN" to that remark.