Reaping The Whirl Wind, IRS Criminal Investigation of 3ABN Options

[Pickle]

Bob, I doubt you would have even asked such a question if you had done any serious personal research on the history of the Regional Conferences, or even studied the Color Line thread here on BSDA.

No, I haven't studied that thread, or even been there. I'm rusty on the history, though I seem to recall some unfortunate incidents that led to their creation except in California. And honestly, there have been times when I've had to fight against the forces of prejudice among Whites, and fight I have.

The two churches nearest where we live are both integrated.

This post has been edited by Pickle: Dec 4 2007, 06:08 AM

[Pickle]

So, tell me...how is Jim in a "conflict of interest situation?"

Already explained that. Danny holds his mortgage, as of November 16.

Danny has a bank account in Michigan......FALSE Absolute LIE...never happened.

Is this exactly and precisely what Gailon claimed, or are you misunderstanding what he wrote?

HE never had any bank account hidden from Linda, much less one with 190,000.00 in it.

So are you saying that Linda knew how much was in the account he opened up under his name only?

I might have mentioned in the other post but will say it again.....the most recent board meeting had nothing to do with the IRS.

So what was it about, and how would you know?

To you, Mr. Pickle, I find your statement that Mollie would be biased IF, and I say if, she did stay at their house.

I didn't make the statement, and I made that clear. Remember?

[Pickle]

As far as property goes you have no idea if there is land titled to Danny or not.

Sure I do.

If it was a gift from the board, or not...

Yes I do.

Let me just say if the board did decide to give or sell him property ..don't you think they would have conferred with attorney's about the logistics of whether they could do it or not?

Not at all, for they have already known since at least June or so that such a thing as giving property to a director for less than fair market value is a violation of the IR Code. And leaders of the church and self-supporting ministries who are committed Seventh-day Adventist Christians who love the Lord foremost will not blatantly violate the Lord's command to obey the laws of the land except where those laws conflict with God's expressly stated will.

And I highly doubt that any of those board members can quote a chapter and verse where it says, "Thou shalt give Danny land."

[Pickle]

This question has been put to him several times in the past and for some strange reason, he refuses to answer with a simple yes he is a pastor or no he isn't.

And why would that be? Ask Ronnie Shelton to see our correspondence of February if you do not already know. February 16, 26, and 27 to be exact. And remember that February 15 was the date Danny announced to the world that there was going to be this stupid lawsuit. And while you're at it, ask Task Force for our correspondence of Feb. 26, which was over the very same topic.

Now in the present church that his family attends, he was an elder. It is my understanding he was removed from that position several months back. Wonder if it had anything to do with what he is doing to 3abn? I don't know for sure. Pickle does.

You have your facts wrong on at least two counts.

This post has been edited by Pickle: Dec 4 2007, 06:27 AM

[Richard Sherwin]

Well I do hope you are not suggesting we sell all of our goods and live in a commune Yes we do need to give to the poor, the widows etc but so many people are poor because of the lack of jobs, so the best way of helping them is not to give them 20 dollars but to give them a 20 dollar an hour job building Corvettes in Bowling Green Kentucky, or even a dollar an hour job building lead painted toys in Xiaqum China. Now do we have an obligation to pay tithes and give an offering to buy things like Bibles and send missionaries overseas? Yes I believe so, it's part of the Great Gospel Commission. There has to be a balance. But I've learned to look at luxury goods, not as a waste but as a job for poor people somewhere in the world.

Richard

Sorry, wasn't sure how to answer since EGW's solution was included as she quoted several passages from the Bible on what to do with the extra gravy. But here's another text which should cut right to the core on what is best for "believers" to do with the mammon of unrighteousness...

Acts 2:43-45 Everyone around was in awe—all those wonders and signs done through the apostles! And all the believers lived in a wonderful harmony, holding everything in common. They sold whatever they owned and pooled their resources so that each person's need was met.

[Richard Sherwin]

A 3abn commune? I remember hearing of a commune in Waco......

Now, if only Pickle, Joy, and 3abn would do just that (along with some of us)...oops...I'm dreaming again in impossible unrealities.

[Richard Sherwin]

Now who is speculating, pot kettle black.

Ian, let me help you out here. You will find there will be no clarification on your Pastor question. This question has been put to him several times in the past and for some strange reason, he refuses to answer with a simple yes he is a pastor or no he isn't. Now in the present church that his family attends, he was an elder. It is my understanding he was removed from that position several months back. Wonder if it had anything to do with what he is doing to 3abn? I don't know for sure. Pickle does.

[Shepherdswife]

-No, I don't believe in the Reformation concept of the "priesthood of all believers".

Would you mind elaborating, please?

[lurker]

I think that with any investigation there are times when not so much is happening and times when a lot of interesting things are coming to the fore. If there is enough here of interest to both sides to keep the discussion going, then I say talk on. If and when people stop being interested, then the topic will die out by itself.

Obviously it can be a chore for an admin who is tired of the subject to read all the endless bickering but I do appreciate your (for the most part) objectivity and the great job you do here Clay.

This has been a learning experience, at least for me, I have asked questions that have revealed at times that I had made false assumptions. Those assumptions were corrected by some who answered. Or at least they have sent me back to re check my information. My questions have made me look foolish at times. I wouldn't ask the same questions now because I know the answers. But I'm glad I asked then. How do you learn if you do not ask questions. I'm not afraid to look foolish. I'm afraid to make assumptions and never change them because I have not asked.

It may be 3ABN that has kept people coming here but you have made me stop and think about a different way of looking at a lot of things and hopefully others have considered changing their minds or re examining their biases as well.

[Clay]

I think that with any investigation there are times when not so much is happening and times when a lot of interesting things are coming to the fore. If there is enough here of interest to both sides to keep the discussion going, then I say talk on. If and when people stop being interested, then the topic will die out by itself.

Obviously it can be a chore for an admin who is tired of the subject to read all the endless bickering but I do appreciate your (for the most part) objectivity and the great job you do here Clay.

This has been a learning experience, at least for me, I have asked questions that have revealed at times that I had made false assumptions. Those assumptions were corrected by some who answered. Or at least they have sent me back to re check my information. My questions have made me look foolish at times. I wouldn't ask the same questions now because I know the answers. But I'm glad I asked then. How do you learn if you do not ask questions. I'm not afraid to look foolish. I'm afraid to make assumptions and never change them because I have not asked.

It may be 3ABN that has kept people coming here but you have made me stop and think about a different way of looking at a lot of things and hopefully others have considered changing their minds or re examining their biases as well.

not a problem, I am not always objective (and don't necessarily try to be), and I tend to try to see all sides of the issue... I suppose it is wearisome that its going on 4 yrs and some of the issues that initiated this sub-forum are not going to have happy endings, or the resolution some had hoped for... that being said, I tend to be on the pragmatic side... things didn't work out like you want them to? what's are you going to do now? that's generally how I view things... but that's just me....

So the last day or so I have asked that question here, primarily to get people to think about what it is they need to do..... time will tell....

[Seraphim7]

It is not my problem. However, it is a concern to me because I happen to have been a donor at one time and I am very unhappy with the way I see money being spent there. Is that a problem for you?????

BTW....respectfully....how and when did this become a racial issue????? I am sensing another agenda here. If you don't want the topic being discussed anymore, why not just shut down the whole sub-forum???

YOU are kidding...

The not so subtle, "why not just shut down the whole sub-forum" sounds more like "another agenda" IMO.

[Seraphim7]

not a problem, I am not always objective (and don't necessarily try to be), and I tend to try to see all sides of the issue... I suppose it is wearisome that its going on 4 yrs and some of the issues that initiated this sub-forum are not going to have happy endings, or the resolution some had hoped for... that being said, I tend to be on the pragmatic side... things didn't work out like you want them to? what's are you going to do now? that's generally how I view things... but that's just me....

So the last day or so I have asked that question here, primarily to get people to think about what it is they need to do..... time will tell....

I appreciate what you are saying completely. Some of the isues that have been brought forward have little or nothing to do with why the discussions that started this sub forum. Yes it is frustratring to see those hashed over more rather than serious issues. And most of us know, that is often done simply to distract from more serious issues.

You mentioned in another response that folks don't have to support 3abn given all the information that has come out and you are right. The thing is, who can say how much of the information that is shared here actually gets to the demographic that 3abn targets? Granted we've had an influx of new members (commercial break - Thank You 3abn ) but how many other viewers, litereally all over the world, even know the mess 3abn has gotten itself into? You are right also when you say that some folks will believe what they want and still support them. I say more power to them. Thankfully they are not stewards over that which we are responsible for.

For those who have come to BSDA to get answers, and in an attempt to get a balanced view, our lil lamp should not be hidden from their view. This may be the only place they can go to vent their concerns, as some of the victims have done. That's my take.

[Shepherdswife]

Granted we've had an influx of new members (commercial break - Thank You 3abn ) ....
For those who have come to BSDA to get answers, and in an attempt to get a balanced view, our lil lamp should not be hidden from their view. This may be the only place they can go to vent their concerns, as some of the victims have done. That's my take.

I am one of those who came to see what was going on, and I was just thinking about how my perspectives have been enriched by the opinions stated here, on both sides. I have learned how other people think in a way that I could not have, had not people been willing to ask questions and give opinions. I am very interested in how people think and why they do what they do, and this has been, and continues to be, a great place to learn and grow. Thanks to Calvin and the other admins!

shepherdswife

[runner4him]

I am one of those who came to see what was going on, and I was just thinking about how my perspectives have been enriched by the opinions stated here, on both sides. I have learned how other people think in a way that I could not have, had not people been willing to ask questions and give opinions. I am very interested in how people think and why they do what they do, and this has been, and continues to be, a great place to learn and grow. Thanks to Calvin and the other admins!

shepherdswife

I agree! I came to BSDA just to support...become informed...stay informed. This whole mess has truly changed me and the way I think about some important issues. I appreciate the differences expressed here. While I do not like the attacking I can maybe understand how people get to that point of feeling desperate and wanting to lash out.

We do need to ask ourselves where we go from here and later after the law suit is over. (which cannot be too soon enough for me!) I have become awakened to the need for more vocal support for victims and I probably will never write another check without thoughtful prayer and looking at the accountability of those I endorse in the church and out of the church.

Just a comment about those who live in great houses.....I have no problem with them or their success but I would personally question the appeal for large sums of money for the organization they head up stating how desperate the funds are needed when their lifestyle is so far above the donors pocketbook. Does that make sense?

My thanks to Calvin and the other admins too!

This post has been edited by runner4him: Dec 4 2007, 04:04 PM

[SoulEspresso]

-"How about getting a call at 2 AM, not about a death, but about an obscure passage in the OT prophets?" You may have read my earlier post to another individual where I said that the elders and others in church need to assume a greater role so that pastors would not have to take calls at 2 AM.

You missed the point. Nobody should be calling anyone at 2 AM over an obscure passage in the Bible. It's disrespect of the highest order and assumes that the pastor is at the members' beck and call any hour the day for any reason, however trivial. (Not saying that the Bible is trivial, but such questions can wait until a sane hour.)

There are 2 AM calls that are appropriate for a pastor to get--like when someone dies. And believe me, when someone dies, it's the pastor they want, not an elder. I totally agree with you that the elders need to take a greater role--yes yes yes!--but it's going to take awhile before rank-and-file members will call an elder rather than a pastor in a crisis.

-No, I don't believe in the Reformation concept of the "priesthood of all believers". I believe in the Biblical model of church organization upon which God has used to set up our church. Sure, we've strayed from it a bit here and there. But the foundation is solid.

Perhaps I should have said, "New Testament concept of the "priesthood of all believers." I know there are some Adventists who want to toss the Reformation as much as they want to toss Roman Catholicism (RC), but if something a Reformer taught was in the Bible (as much of it was and is), it's a biblical concept. I put "Reformation" because they taught, over against the RC church, that anyone could go to God for themselves. Do you believe that anyone can come to God without a mortal human intercessor? As a faithful Adventist I suspect you do, therefore you believe in the Reformation/New Testament concept of the priesthood of all believers.

Where this comes into play for church structure is this: no biblical Christian has a calling that is higher than another. The Old Testament had the priests and Levites between ordinary Israelites and God, but the book of Hebrews clearly teaches that Christ overwhelmed all those roles so that anyone could come to the Father through Him. The New Testament shows that everyone has a role to play in church, and while some have authority over others, this is a matter of role in the community of faith, not some divine choice that puts another person between an "ordinary" Christian and God.

-"Can you show me where New Testament pastors were tithe-supported?" Of course, I could give you hundreds and hundreds of names. Just look in any SDA Yearbook. You'll find scores of pastors in there that are tithe-supported. And we are a New Testament church, are we not?

Nope. We live 2000 years later. Let me put it another way: can you find in the pages of the New Testament where pastors were paid by tithing?

It's not there. The NT churches supported missionaries (aka church planters), but even those often worked to support themselves so that the money could be used for other things.

-"If we're not to use biblical examples, what's the point of this discussion?" Please notice that I gave a solid Biblical example but you, inaccurately, said that it was out of context. Why is it that Peter said he had no silver or gold?

Context:

Acts 3:1 One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon. 2Now a man crippled from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. 3When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. 4Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!" 5So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them.

6Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." 7Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. 8He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God. 9When all the people saw him walking and praising God, 10they recognized him as the same man who used to sit begging at the temple gate called Beautiful, and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.

Note that the story has absolutely nothing to do with church structure, paid pastors/missionaries, or administrative/financial arrangements of any kind. Peter's point was that he was not rich, but that he had something way better than money. The story does not tell us whether he supported himself on the side, or whether he depended on the Christian community for his food and shelter. I suspect that the latter is probably the case! Other passages in Acts suggest this. But to pretend that this story shows us that Peter or other New Testament leaders didn't work on the side, to "pay their bills" so to speak, is to take the verse out of context.

I'm totally with you in that Christians should not amass wealth for themselves, for wealth's sake. Yesterday in a Bible study we went over Jesus' parable about the guy who built himself bigger barns and then died. I think it was Wesley who said, "Make all you can, save all you can, give all you can." In other words, get as much money as you can away from the devil and use it for God. Poor people do not have a spiritual leg up on rich people, though people with means are biblically required to share with those who do not.

As far as Jim Gilley goes, viz. his own finances, just because he has a really nice house in Dallas he's trying to get rid of, doesn't mean he got the money outside the bounds of God's will for a pastor. A house is an investment that can pay back money later on in caring for the poor and spreading the news of Christ's love. I love it that Jim worked for the church for a dollar for awhile. I hate that he's created a conflict of interest for himself as the incoming president of 3ABN.

I am in fact trying to stir up your mind, jakann. Take it in the spirit it's offered.

Here's some more. The Adventist Church is not a New Testament church. It's a 19th century church struggling to get into the 21st century while attempting to hold faithfully to New Testament principles. We do plenty that is not New Testament, even on the most basic level. Meeting in church buildings, for example--that's something the emperor Constantine pushed, and it was based on the pagan practice of gathering in temples for false worship (many early churches were built on the sites of razed pagan temples). Our order of service every Sabbath morning--not found in the New Testament, but is more akin to RC worship even if the elements are different.