Reaping The Whirl Wind, IRS Criminal Investigation of 3ABN Options

[jakann]

You tell us that commodities are worse. Are you aware that the commodity market is what gives stability to the price of your corn flakes that you purchase in January. Folks, there is not a lot of corn that is being harvested in January in the mid-West. So, the Post company buys a corn future for delivery in January. They take delivery of that future, in January. By puirchasing that future in July, they can stabalize their purchase price for corn over the winter, and maintain a stable price throughoutthe winter months when corn is not being harvested.

The commodities market is grounded in companies who actually take delivery of the product, and want to stabalize the price over a period of time.

You have completely misread my post. I never said there was anything wrong with either the stock market or the commodities markets. The problem is in those that 'play' them and treating said markets as a kind of speculation game. Of course I know that the futures markets is what help stabilize prices! When I said that they were worse, I meant that they were worse than stocks because you can lose more than your initial investment if you are tempted to start buying more as the price drops in the hopes that it will recover before you have to make delivery.
There are thousands of folk who never ever intend to take delivery of corn and make corn flakes but are buying and selling corn just to see if they can outsmart everyone else who is playing it.

[jakann]

Yes I do believe that there is a Sunday Law coming to the US, but I don't obsess over it nor do I try to figure out when it will happen. I could care less when, as long as my relationship is right with God. I don't need to worry about the Sunday Law. I try to live as if Christ was coming tomorrow or a hundred years from now.

If Christ came tomorrow would he be happy to find all of his money at Merrill Lynch or Adventist Frontier Missions?

If all SDA's quit investing their money 50 years ago, for that matter if the church quit investing it's money (our money) 50 years ago we would be in a hurt of trouble. 40-50 years ago with the Cold War looming, and nuclear Armageddon seemingly upon us (and a Catholic president) many SDA thought that the world was going to end then with the return of Christ. It did not happen, and it might not happen anytime soon.

You are correct. It certainly won't happen anytime soon as long as we keep investing the money into stock markets instead of finishing the gospel.

[jakann]

Every morsel of food you eat is somehow processed on Sabbath. Every time you buy something you are investing in a company that in some way benefits from Sabbath work. Every time you hear a sermon at your church someone is working on the Sabbath to your benefit. (It has been said, tongue in cheek, that the SDA church could not function without the heathens.) Our church pays people to work on the Sabbath, and so do I whenever I pay for my kids to go to a SDA school, or turn in a tithe check. So come down off your self righteous horse and join the real world.

You are the second person to call me righteous in this thread. And all because I said this: "I could never be a shareholder in a company that does business on the Sabbath."

...... thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

All of life is a gamble, it's full of risks.

Dead wrong. The entire life of the one whose life is fully surrendered to Christ is fully ordered by Providence according to His divine will that He may be glorified in all things. Take your gaming tables elsewhere.

The world as we know it would not exist without people being willing to invest money in sound investments in exchange they get a return, some years little or none, some years lots and some years they loose money, just like a farmer or any business owner does. Welcome to the real world.

You are making my point for me Richard. Go back and read my posts! There is nothing wrong with investing in legitimate businesses.

[jakann]

This is from Adventist Today , March-April 2000. It touches on the issues Observer brought up.

http://www.atoday.com/magazine/2000/03/thank-god-gentiles
Thank God for the Gentiles

Panama Pete,
The shallow thinking that the following puts out is surely seen through by everyone that reads it?

Concerning What's "Essential" Service?

JAMES COFFIN--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having outlined in considerable detail the virtues of country of living and the specifics of how it was possible for anyone adequately motivated, I was taken aback when an Adventist professor from the university gently informed me that my thinking was flawed. "You've forgotten the law of composition," he said.

"If you're at a football game and can't see because heads are in your way, it will help if you stand up. But it will help only as long as few people do it. If everyone stands, you lose the advantage. In the same way, your ideas of country living are predicated on the assumption that most people won't do it. If everyone did, we couldn't support the technological infrastructure that makes country living, as you've outlined it, viable."

This Adventist professor must have been at the building of Noah's ark. "Hey, there isn't room for all the billions of people on earth in that ark! You're a fool!" Same thing with country living.

For starters, there's the police force. If New York City becomes 100 percent Adventist, there are basically two options for protecting its totally Adventist citizenry against unsavory types from elsewhere: leave all personal and property protection to God, or maintain a police force. If the latter option is chosen, police protection is needed 24 hours a day, seven days a week, which creates a Sabbath-work dilemma.

This guy is a riot. The old "well, what if everyone is SDA?" argument is often applied to many situations. Of course, the first response should be "Praise the Lord everyone is an SDA!" Next question.
Of course all of our property is under the protection of God, even against "unsavory types from elsewhere"

If the entire nation is Adventist but surrounding nations aren't, we have an even greater problem of protection from aggressors. The national police force is called the "military."

Three times a year all men in Israel left their homes and went to the Tabernacle. It was God's divine protection over the entire country at this time that allowed them to do this. Doesn't this pastor own a Bible?

The examples I've provided don't scratch the surface of the complexity of our modern society. But these few cases are sufficient to show the incompatibility of many traditional Adventist structures with a hypothetical 100 percent Adventist population of a city or a nation.

Hey, he's almost got me convinced. Boy am I every glad that our entire nation is not Adventist! Why if the whole world were Adventist, trains couldn't run, hotels would close, it would mean the end of this world as we know it.........

[Panama_Pete]

Panama Pete,
The shallow thinking that the following puts out is surely seen through by everyone that reads it?
This Adventist professor must have been at the building of Noah's ark. "Hey, there isn't room for all the billions of people on earth in that ark! You're a fool!" Same thing with country living.

This guy is a riot. The old "well, what if everyone is SDA?" argument is often applied to many situations. Of course, the first response should be "Praise the Lord everyone is an SDA!" Next question.

Of course all of our property is under the protection of God, even against "unsavory types from elsewhere"

Three times a year all men in Israel left their homes and went to the Tabernacle. It was God's divine protection over the entire country at this time that allowed them to do this. Doesn't this pastor own a Bible?

Hey, he's almost got me convinced. Boy am I every glad that our entire nation is not Adventist! Why if the whole world were Adventist, trains couldn't run, hotels wouIld close, it would mean the end of this world as we know it.........

I'm not going to address every point you made, except, maybe, the part where you said the Adventist pastor was a shallow thinker. I don't agree with that.

However, I'm willing to listen to your point of view, if it sounds sensible. We reallly don't need to agree on everything. I think the underlying question the pastor asks is, "Where do you draw your lines in the sand?"

What if you lived in the far north, in the land of the Midnight Sun, and the sun didn't set on Friday night? How would you keep your Sabbath from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday? You would have to make some sort of rationalized accomodation.

You asked if the pastor owns a bible. Even if that pastor owns a bible, what chapter of that pastor's bible addresses the Midnight Sun? Maybe you could help him find that chapter and verse.

Pastor Coffin's article is really about thinking about what you do, why you do it, and how it fits logically into today's modern culture where you live, so that it makes some sense. It's not about Israelite men making their way to the Tabernacle thousands of years ago in the Middle East or about Noah's Ark.

I don't mean to disturb you, I'm just wondering, and even curious, how you figured these things out in such a finite way. After all, if everything is protected by God, why does Loma Linda University need security people? Seems like a big waste of money to me if God provides the same security service for free. Every man in Loma Linda could head for that Tabernacle in Israel that you mentioned and not worry about anything they left behind in the States. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me if it worked.

Pete

This post has been edited by Panama_Pete: Dec 24 2007, 05:12 AM

[Clay]

Pete, good points unfortunately I don't think Jakann will see it...

[Richard Sherwin]

And where do you think a lot of people get their money to put into AFM? From wisely investing it, in stocks, real estate, businesses, metals etc.

If Christ came tomorrow would he be happy to find all of his money at Merrill Lynch or Adventist Frontier Missions?
You are correct. It certainly won't happen anytime soon as long as we keep investing the money into stock markets instead of finishing the gospel.

[Richard Sherwin]

And when you invest in legitimate businesses you are taking a risk, you are gambling. When you put your money in the bank you are gambling. When you hide it in your bed you are gambling, in fact when you give it to Adventist Frontier Missions you are gambling.

The fact is you hire people every Sabbath to be your servant, the moment you switch on the light switch at sundown Friday.

You are the second person to call me righteous in this thread. And all because I said this: "I could never be a shareholder in a company that does business on the Sabbath."

...... thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Dead wrong. The entire life of the one whose life is fully surrendered to Christ is fully ordered by Providence according to His divine will that He may be glorified in all things. Take your gaming tables elsewhere.
You are making my point for me Richard. Go back and read my posts! There is nothing wrong with investing in legitimate businesses.

[Richard Sherwin]

I'm a little confused here Jakann. You state that it's OK to invest in legitimate businesses, and yet you say we should not invest in the stock market. I'm assuming that you know that the stock market is how most people invest in legitimate businesses.

If Christ came tomorrow would he be happy to find all of his money at Merrill Lynch or Adventist Frontier Missions?
You are correct. It certainly won't happen anytime soon as long as we keep investing the money into stock markets instead of finishing the gospel.

[jakann]

I'm a little confused here Jakann. You state that it's OK to invest in legitimate businesses, and yet you say we should not invest in the stock market. I'm assuming that you know that the stock market is how most people invest in legitimate businesses.

Good evening Richard! I think you have missed a point I made several times earlier. There is nothing wrong with a stock market, which exists as a free market way for businesses to raise capital by promising a return on investment by giving the investor a chance to be part owner in the enterprise. But the 'playing' of the stock market is nigh on to a form of gambling in that its success is based much upon irrational speculation. There are so many factors outside of the the investors control. Enron anyone? How about Citibank? They've just wrote off $30 Billion! Wonder how big their dividend checks will be this year?
This story just came out yesterday. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...cccrisis123.xml it is worth a read.
I'd tread carefully.

The Sabbath issues I mentioned would be another concern. Many big businesses are heavily involved with politics. That's another boondoggle. There are the direct needs of the church and the last hours of earth's history that we are living in.
God has promised us that whatever we invest with Him will be repaid eternally and He will take care of us.

If you want to invest in a business, start one yourself. Or, I know of several ministries that need investors to get some business projects going. They do not want donations. They want investors who will be a part of their work. You will get your investment paid back to you plus you will help spread the gospel to boot. Wouldn't this be the best model?
Blessings!

[jakann]

I'm not going to address every point you made, except, maybe, the part where you said the Adventist pastor was a shallow thinker. I don't agree with that.

However, I'm willing to listen to your point of view, if it sounds sensible. We reallly don't need to agree on everything. I think the underlying question the pastor asks is, "Where do you draw your lines in the sand?"

What if you lived in the far north, in the land of the Midnight Sun, and the sun didn't set on Friday night? How would you keep your Sabbath from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday? You would have to make some sort of rationalized accomodation.

You asked if the pastor owns a bible. Even if that pastor owns a bible, what chapter of that pastor's bible addresses the Midnight Sun? Maybe you could help him find that chapter and verse.

Pastor Coffin's article is really about thinking about what you do, why you do it, and how it fits logically into today's modern culture where you live, so that it makes some sense. It's not about Israelite men making their way to the Tabernacle thousands of years ago in the Middle East or about Noah's Ark.

I don't mean to disturb you, I'm just wondering, and even curious, how you figured these things out in such a finite way. After all, if everything is protected by God, why does Loma Linda University need security people? Seems like a big waste of money to me if God provides the same security service for free. Every man in Loma Linda could head for that Tabernacle in Israel that you mentioned and not worry about anything they left behind in the States. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me if it worked.

Pete

I heartily agree with you that the article made me think further about why we do the things we do as Seventh-day Adventists. I certainly do not agree with his approach especially the fact that we can't be good SDA's unless there are Gentiles (Heathen) out there to help us. That logic is about as flawed as any I have ever heard in any theological debate.
If we want to debate on how to keep the Sabbath in Point Barrow, AK fine. Or we can discuss other Sabbath-keeping issues. But the good pastor is just repeating a lie told by Lucifer back in Eden. I.e. "Good cannot exist without Evil. In fact, God wants to keep all the Evil to Himself and not let you know about it. Your Goodness will be enhanced, in fact, become Godly, with the addition of this Evil. Indeed, you cannot really live without it."
Blessings,
jakann

[jakann]

And when you invest in legitimate businesses you are taking a risk, you are gambling. When you put your money in the bank you are gambling. When you hide it in your bed you are gambling, in fact when you give it to Adventist Frontier Missions you are gambling.

The fact is you hire people every Sabbath to be your servant, the moment you switch on the light switch at sundown Friday.

Okay Richard, I understand that you are saying that using electricity on the Sabbath is breaking the 4th commandment since you referred my quoting of it. Question for you. How do you deal with this Sabbath-breaking?

[Panama_Pete]

I heartily agree with you that the article made me think further about why we do the things we do as Seventh-day Adventists. I certainly do not agree with his approach especially the fact that we can't be good SDA's unless there are Gentiles (Heathen) out there to help us. That logic is about as flawed as any I have ever heard in any theological debate.
If we want to debate on how to keep the Sabbath in Point Barrow, AK fine. Or we can discuss other Sabbath-keeping issues. But the good pastor is just repeating a lie told by Lucifer back in Eden. I.e. "Good cannot exist without Evil. In fact, God wants to keep all the Evil to Himself and not let you know about it. Your Goodness will be enhanced, in fact, become Godly, with the addition of this Evil. Indeed, you cannot really live without it."
Blessings,
jakann

But when it comes to that Good and Evil you mention, where do you draw that line separating the two? Is it always as simplistic as you make it sound?

For instance, a Express Mail carrier delivers snake anti-venom to the Adventist Hospital on a Saturday. The Express driver is a sinner because he works on Saturday.

However, as soon as the Express carrier crosses the Adventist Hospital property line and hands the anti-venom to the Adventist doctor at the Adventist Hospital, the anti-venom and the work of the Adventist doctor become part of God's own work.

At what instant in time did the sin of the Express Mail driver become God's work? Was it at the Adventist Hospital property line?

Can the Adventist Hospital even do God's work without the Express delivery service? I know several Adventists who would cast dispersion on the Express driver if they knew he was an Adventist and saw him making any Saturday deliveries. But, on the other hand, they would want that Adventist doctor on the church and school boards. The doctor might even be asked to be a board chairman of a religious broadcasting network.

So, I leave you with this question. If both the Adventist doctor and the Adventist Express driver die in an earthquake at exactly the same moment - right as the Express driver hands the anti-venom to the Adventist doctor at the Adventist Hospital -- what happens next?

Do both the dead Adventist doctor and the dead Express driver qualify for heaven?

Or, does the doctor go to heaven and the Express Mail driver go into the lake of fire because the Express driver was sinning at the moment he died, but the doctor wasn't sinning because the doctor was doing the Lords work at that same moment? Is salvation here based on which occupation Adventist culture reveres the most?

Does your personal Adventist culture have that much power that it can open and close the gates of heaven? The pope says his organization can do that - decide who goes where. Can we Adventists open and close the gates of heaven, too, if we decide we can based on what occupations we value?

These are some questions I have thought about over the years.

In summary, I do wonder if you and I are talking about the difference between Good and Evil or if we're really talking about the differences between Adventist Culture versus the Societal Culture around us. If it's the latter, then I don't feel that it is necessary for us to have all the answers, since societal values change over time. For instance, one decade North American Adventists are not wearing wedding rings, the next decade I see some are. Do we really need to label the sans-wedding-ring situation "Good" and the other add-wedding-ring situation "Evil." I don't think we are required to make judgment calls on social norms like that one and I think that there are some other issues that are along this same line.

This post has been edited by Panama_Pete: Dec 25 2007, 04:23 AM

[Observer]

What if you lived in the far north, in the land of the Midnight Sun, and the sun didn't set on Friday night? How would you keep your Sabbath from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday? You would have to make some sort of rationalized accomodation.

You have raised a very valid question. It is one on which the church is divided. The majority of the chruch begins and ends the Sabbath at sunset. But, there are small groups who end it at another time. I am personally aquainted with a family who lives in Colorado and begins and ends it at 6 PM. That is one of several minority practices which continue to exist within the SDA Chruch.

However, getting to the far north: There is an astronimical setting of the sun. That astronimical setting is not dependent upon the visibality of the sun. In the far north, there are those who begain the Sabbath based upon that astronimical seetting of the sun.

THE LORD'S DAY ON A ROUND WORLD, written by R. L. Odem is out of print. But, I consider it a masterpiece in the discussion of this subject. Anyone who is interested in it should obtain this book.

By the way, what do you do about the SDAs who live on one of the Pacific islands? They have determined that the 7th day of the week is the day that is named Sunday. Therefore, they worship on Sunday, along with the rest of the Chrilstian community. At one time they worshiped on the day named Saturday. Then, due to issues which I will not get into here, the days were renamed, and the day previously named Saturday was re-named Sunday. The Chistian community moved their woship the the day previously named Saturday, and now named Sunday. The SDAs continued to worship on the 7th day of the week, the day now named Sunday, and the day of worship for the rest of the Christians.

Was this the right thing to do? Some SDAs have critized them for doing so. They have saild that the SDAs should have moved to the new day now named Saturday to give a public witness that they did not worship on Sunday.

[watchbird]

Shouldn't all of this discussion on Sabbath keeping and other theological issues be moved to the Theology forum?