Last Day Events, Can we be sure? Options

[gracetoyou]

no need to be sad... ask any of the regulars here, I have advocated for years (and they use to tease me about it) that the .org needs to be dismantled and reorganized from scratch.... the other option, home churches.... no organized structure at all....the more I read about 3abn, and how the tentacles of corruption seem to be everywhere, the better home churches look to me... the more you all share about leaders being in bed so to speak with Mr. Shelton the more it strengthens my position that this .org needs to be dismantled..... btjm....

And home churches would have the same problem as the organized church and for the same reason - they would have people who are not fully converted to God and are controlled by their selfish natures. Israel was God's church for @1500 years and look at the numerous times they apostasized from God. God gave them 1500 years to get their act together. The Seventh-day Adventist church has been in existence only @150 years. Revelation lists 7 churches from the beginning of the Christian era to the end. The last church is Laodicea - a church that is filled with problems and that He is about to spit out of His mouth unless they repent. Notice that there is NO church after Laodicea.

If you study the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy writings on last day events, you will learn about the shaking, a time when, because of persecution, the church is purified and the latter rain is poured out. The church will not be purified until then.

A book you might find interesting is one by Ty Gibson titled Abandon Ship?. It deals with the issues you have brought up. Another great book which all Adventists should read is by Jim Hohnberger titled It's About People. Jim Hohnberger ministers both to conference and independent Adventists and he has found that there are unsanctified attitudes within both groups. They, and we, all need the gospel.

[Guest_statrei_*]

Revelation lists 7 churches from the beginning of the Christian era to the end. The last church is Laodicea - a church that is filled with problems and that He is about to spit out of His mouth unless they repent. Notice that there is NO church after Laodicea.

Be careful when you claim that your interpretation of seven letters to seven historical churches is the truth. Before you tell me of how you have a biblical basis for the ideas you have about "the end" I would remind you that for 1500 years men had sound mathematical evidence that the earth was the center of the universe.

[beartrap]

Darius said "Therein lies the key to Shelton's perceived hold or that of any other religious 'power.'" I don't disagree with that. Danny has tapped into a goldmine. He has found a denomination whose pride and strength is built on being different and better. The elements that make it different and better are the four true pillars of conservative Adventism: the Sabbath, the state-of-the-dead, diet, and end-time events.

Our knowledge of these things makes us feel good. We are rendered superior and others inferior by our greater knowledge and understanding. We are more willing to put more money into someone who is preaching about the Sabbath and the beast & dragons, than we would ever consider puting into helping people on a temporal level. Why? "They are spreading the truth." We are willing to overlook their garbage as long as they are disseminating our four pillars in such a manner as we can sit back and feel miraculous about.

Other denominations and groups also enjoy miracles. Their miracles usually include healing and "prosperity doctrine." Adventists largely don't fall for that. The things we choose to see as miracles are whatever spreads our four pillars further. We see a televangelist, or an organization prospering and say "its a miracle." We see money coming into a group that is distributing books on the law and end-time events, and say "its a miracle." We do this choosing not to see that EWTN (the Catholic channel) is much larger and more prosperous than ours. All of the "miracles" we choose to see at 3ABN are happening in spades at EWTN, TBN, and others.

I agree with Clay and Darius. Danny is a symptom of a much larger problem that is fundamental.

[Clay]

And home churches would have the same problem as the organized church and for the same reason - they would have people who are not fully converted to God and are controlled by their selfish natures. Israel was God's church for @1500 years and look at the numerous times they apostasized from God. God gave them 1500 years to get their act together. The Seventh-day Adventist church has been in existence only @150 years. Revelation lists 7 churches from the beginning of the Christian era to the end. The last church is Laodicea - a church that is filled with problems and that He is about to spit out of His mouth unless they repent. Notice that there is NO church after Laodicea.

If you study the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy writings on last day events, you will learn about the shaking, a time when, because of persecution, the church is purified and the latter rain is poured out. The church will not be purified until then.

A book you might find interesting is one by Ty Gibson titled Abandon Ship?. It deals with the issues you have brought up. Another great book which all Adventists should read is by Jim Hohnberger titled It's About People. Jim Hohnberger ministers both to conference and independent Adventists and he has found that there are unsanctified attitudes within both groups. They, and we, all need the gospel.

Revelation lists 7 churches that were in existence at the time John wrote those letters... they had problems that had to be addressed at that time... that was the primary reason for those letters.... John was not writing to us thousands of years later though we can benefit from what he wrote...

Home churches may or may not have the issues we are seeing with the organized church. One thing for certain if a home church did have a problem with corruption, it would be localized and could not spread as this has....

As for the other... been there done that, know all about the shaking, persecution and the latter rain for which there is no biblical support.... the church as it currently exists poses no threat so no one is interested in persecuting it.....

Those who are following God and belong to him are known only to him... the visible .org may just disappear as there is no correlation between the visble church and those who make up God's church....

[gracetoyou]

[quote name='Clay' date='May 30 2006, 10:50 AM' post='132753']
As for the other... been there done that, know all about the shaking, persecution and the latter rain for which there is no biblical support.... the church as it currently exists poses no threat so no one is interested in persecuting it.....


Shaking: Amos 9:9, Matthew 24:10-14
Persecution: Matthew 24:9, Revelation 13:15-17, Revelation 16:4-6, Revelation 20:4
Latter rain (Outpouring of Holy Spirit) - Hosea 6:1-3, Joel 2:23, 28-32

Christians of various denominations are being persecuted in communist and Muslim countries. Check into Voice of the Martyrs or read In the Lion's Den by Nina Shea. Fortunately we still have religious freedom due to separation of church and state in the U.S. But as Revelation 13 predicts, that will not always be the case.

This post has been edited by gracetoyou: May 30 2006, 04:08 PM

[Clay]

Shaking: Amos 9:9, Matthew 24:10-14
Persecution: Matthew 24:9, Revelation 13:15-17, Revelation 16:4-6, Revelation 20:4
Latter rain (Outpouring of Holy Spirit) - Hosea 6:1-3, Joel 2:23, 28-32

Sorry those dogs ain't hunting.....the texts you supplied to support your position of the latter rain deals with Israel and what would happen with them... we are not Israel... and in one text it is referring to actual rain, not the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.....

The texts dealing with the shaking. Hosea is referring to Israel... and we are not them. About the only ones that remotely fit would be those texts in Matthew and Revelation, but even then John was addressing the persecution that they were going through at that time, not at some future event....

Of course I know that we have historically used these texts to support our position but we were not rightly dividing the word....

[Clay]

Therein lies the key to Shelton's perceived hold or that of any other religious 'power.' You have as much evidence that the God has abandoned Adventism as you have that he/she has abandoned the Jews, yet you believe the one and not the other.

deep and profound, yet I think most people missed this one entirely....

[seeshell]

Then why do you remain Adventist? Or have you? Forgive me, I'm fairly new and don't know many specifics about others' history.

[Panama_Pete]

Although Danny, Dr. Thompson, John Lomacang, and others have set forth to block any ministry opportunities that Linda may pursue, this is a big world.

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." Psalm 14

In other words, trying to block Linda Shelton's ministry opportunities is doomed to failure.

This post has been edited by Panama_Pete: May 30 2006, 07:31 PM

[sister]

Revelation lists 7 churches that were in existence at the time John wrote those letters... they had problems that had to be addressed at that time... that was the primary reason for those letters.... John was not writing to us thousands of years later though we can benefit from what he wrote...

Home churches may or may not have the issues we are seeing with the organized church. One thing for certain if a home church did have a problem with corruption, it would be localized and could not spread as this has....

As for the other... been there done that, know all about the shaking, persecution and the latter rain for which there is no biblical support.... the church as it currently exists poses no threat so no one is interested in persecuting it.....

Those who are following God and belong to him are known only to him... the visible .org may just disappear as there is no correlation between the visble church and those who make up God's church....

Clay, this appears to be quite an interesting topic. Perhaps it would get the attention it deserves if it were continued in Adventism: Theology and Related Subjects ? Others who may not choose to read this thread and might want to join in on the dialogue, would have a better opportunity if it continues there. JMO

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." Psalm 14

In other words, trying to block Linda Shelton's ministry opportunities is doomed to failure.

I agee with you completely. But, it is unfortunate that they continue trying...

[gracetoyou]

Sorry those dogs ain't hunting.....the texts you supplied to support your position of the latter rain deals with Israel and what would happen with them... we are not Israel... and in one text it is referring to actual rain, not the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.....

The texts dealing with the shaking. Hosea is referring to Israel... and we are not them. About the only ones that remotely fit would be those texts in Matthew and Revelation, but even then John was addressing the persecution that they were going through at that time, not at some future event....

Of course I know that we have historically used these texts to support our position but we were not rightly dividing the word....

"Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. (Spiritual Israel) Gal. 3:7
"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed (Israel) and heirs according to the promise.
Gal. 3:29 Carefully read also Galations 4:21-31 which explains that the miracle birth of Isaac through a promise was symbolic of the miraculous new birth of believers in Jesus Christ. In other words, the true descendants of Abraham (Israel) are believers in Jesus Christ who have been born again through a promise. The physical descendants of Abraham (literal Israel) are considered "the slave woman's son who will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." (v. 30)

Hosea 6:1-3 refers to the LORD reviving and restoring us so that we may live in His presence and says that "He will come to us like the rain, like the latter and former rain to the earth." The text is using actual rain to symbolize the reviving and restoring work of God to enable us to live in His presence. Adventists just use the this terminology to refer to the outpouring of the Spirit (Joel 2:28) "before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD," (v. 32 ).

Are you serious when you state that Revelation 13's scenario of the sea beast and the two horned beast took place in John's day? So exactly who were the two beasts, when did they make fire come down from heaven, when did they cause all who refused to worship the first beast to be killed, when did they cause all men to receive a mark in their forehead or hand and forbid them to buy or sell unless they had the mark? I teach history and I don't recall anything in history in John's time or any other time that fits this chapter.

In Revelation 14 the three angels' messages warn about the beast and his image, so according to your interpretation, the three angels' messages have no significance now either. It all took place 2000 years ago?

I don't recall the seven last plagues of Revelation 16 having been poured out either in my reading of history. Rivers and sea turned to blood, Armageddon, 100 pound hailstones, all islands sinking, when did this occur in John's day?

Where do you get this stuff?

Just read sister's comment. I agree that this is getting off the theme of this thread and should be moved to the theology forum.

This post has been edited by gracetoyou: May 30 2006, 07:45 PM

[Clay]

"Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. (Spiritual Israel) Gal. 3:7
"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed (Israel) and heirs according to the promise.
Gal. 3:29 Carefully read also Galations 4:21-31 which explains that the miracle birth of Isaac through a promise was symbolic of the miraculous new birth of believers in Jesus Christ. In other words, the true descendants of Abraham (Israel) are believers in Jesus Christ who have been born again through a promise. The physical descendants of Abraham (literal Israel) are considered "the slave woman's son who will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." (v. 30)

Hosea 6:1-3 refers to the LORD reviving and restoring us so that we may live in His presence and says that "He will come to us like the rain, like the latter and former rain to the earth." The text is using actual rain to symbolize the reviving and restoring work of God to enable us to live in His presence. Adventists just use the this terminology to refer to the outpouring of the Spirit (Joel 2:28) "before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD," (v. 32 ).

Are you serious when you state that Revelation 13's scenario of the sea beast and the two horned beast took place in John's day? So exactly who were the two beasts, when did they make fire come down from heaven, when did they cause all who refused to worship the first beast to be killed, when did they cause all men to receive a mark in their forehead or hand and forbid them to buy or sell unless they had the mark? I teach history and I don't recall anything in history in John's time or any other time that fits this chapter.

In Revelation 14 the three angels' messages warn about the beast and his image, so according to your interpretation, the three angels' messages have no significance now either. It all took place 2000 years ago?

I don't recall the seven last plagues of Revelation 16 having been poured out either in my reading of history. Rivers and sea turned to blood, Armageddon, 100 pound hailstones, all islands sinking, when did this occur in John's day?

Where do you get this stuff?

Just read sister's comment. I agree that this is getting off the theme of this thread and should be moved to the theology forum.

I would submit that we have no idea who the beast in Rev 13 is... likewise the plagues do not have to happen in the same place. I just finished watching Hotel Rwanda, where some one million people were hacked to death in about 90 days.... clearly that was a time of trouble for some and blood flowed freely.....

The question is where do you get your stuff? The mark of the beast is not sunday observance just as the seal of God is not sabbath observance.... I do not agree with your interpretation of the texts in Hosea, though I understand why we have historically interpreted it that way.....

Lastly the attempt to interpret Revelation is taking a stab in the dark at best, and serious guesswork at its worst....

Then why do you remain Adventist? Or have you? Forgive me, I'm fairly new and don't know many specifics about others' history.

why does who remain adventist?

[Clay]

Are you serious when you state that Revelation 13's scenario of the sea beast and the two horned beast took place in John's day? So exactly who were the two beasts, when did they make fire come down from heaven, when did they cause all who refused to worship the first beast to be killed, when did they cause all men to receive a mark in their forehead or hand and forbid them to buy or sell unless they had the mark? I teach history and I don't recall anything in history in John's time or any other time that fits this chapter.

John wrote this to the churches, it had meaning to them in their time. What was the meaning? What really is fire from heaven? consider the fact that the Roman army used catapults to hurl rocks or flaming darts into besieged cities or at the enemy. To those at that time, that would be "fire from heaven." So the question is have we focused so much on Revelation being in the future that we have ignored the possibility that those events could have taken place during John's time?

[seeshell]

Why do you ask that particular question, seeshell?

why does who remain adventist?



Sorry, I should have been more specific. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there seems to be a lot of church-bashing going on, and I just wonder why anyone who really believes the church is so mistaken in prophetic interpretation and abandoned by God would even want to be connected with it. My question was particularly directed to statrei and clay. I have my own issues with "the church", but if I believed it was so dead wrong in its official teachings and God had left it, I think I would want to be connected with something that better fit my beliefs, if anything. I don't want to be smart, I just wonder.

This post has been edited by seeshell: May 30 2006, 09:52 PM

[Clay]

why does who remain adventist?
Sorry, I should have been more specific. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there seems to be a lot of church-bashing going on, and I just wonder why anyone who really believes the church is so mistaken in prophetic interpretation and abandoned by God would even want to be connected with it. My question was particularly directed to statrei and clay. I have my own issues with "the church", but if I believed it was so dead wrong in its official teachings and God had left it, I think I would want to be connected with something that better fit my beliefs, if anything. I don't want to be smart, I just wonder.

the church can be wrong and people can still remain members hashing out various beliefs and enjoying the fellowship. Why does it have to be an either/or thing with folks? I don't agree with many of the things that the United States does, that does not mean I am interested in moving elsewhere.

Let me clarify, when I stated God has left the building I mean that it is possible that like His response to Israel he no longer utilizes them for his plan to share his son with the world. It does not mean that he as forsaken them, it means they have been pulled from the game and benched. The B team will be taking the field... I am not arrogant enough to believe that the sda church will not be set aside and other methods used to show who The Creator is. I am not arrogant enough to believe that this church can never be wrong about anything. Lastly I am not arrogant enough to believe that this church is "the only true church."

I understand where you are coming from, however for me I do not have to associate myself only with those who believe as I do... that is why I enjoy the fellowship here on BSDA, we may not agree, and its okay, we talk, discuss, hash it out, and at the end of it all, we remain brothers and sisters in Christ...

As one member put it and I agree, I am a christian first who happens to worship with seventh day adventists.....