Asi And Resolution., Issues in resolution. Options

[Observer]

It has been published a number of times that ASI is considering whether or not to attempt to find some kind of resolution to what I call this 3-ABN mess. Numerous comments have been made regarding this in this forum, and in others. So, I thought that I would start this thread so that the comments that will continue to come could be made in one place.

My personal position is that that during this process, the discussions must be conducted in private, and outside of publicity. Once some decisions have been made, public announcements may be made, and posted here and elsewhere.

Because I believe that privacy is essential at this time, I am not going to post specifics.

However, I do believe that there are general comments that may be made, and may be helpful to be posted at this time. So, I will do that.

As a first post, I will make some comments on what is involved if an outside party (ASI, the SDA Church, or any other non-civil organization) is to effect a resolution either in whole, or in part. Most, if not all, will be simple common sense.

As a first stage in this, the respective parties, in my opinion must agree on two major points:

A. Do the respective parties agree that they will allow another party to mediate a resolution to their issues?

Outside of the civil realm, none of the parties to these issues can be forced into an attempt to resolve the issues. 3-ABN is an independent organization. It is not tied to any other organization in a manner that would force it to do anything. The other parties are all individuals. None of them can be forced into an attempted resolution against their wills. In short, resolution may only be achieved between parties who agree to attempts to resolve issues.

Yes, it is true that if any issues enter the civil realm, which it appears has already happened, some parties may be forced to comply with orders from the judicial system.

B. Do the respective parties agree on the process by which this attempt to mediate a resolution will take place?

All parties to this mess must agree on the process by which it takes place. This is much more involved in simply determining that it is fair. This process cannot be imposed upon the parties by an outside agency. Without this agreement on the process, parties will refuse to be involved, and resolution will not take place. In my personal opinion, there are three (3) aspects upon which the parties must agree:

1) They must agree upon the issues to be considered for resolution.

As this mess has developed, multiple issues and people have become involved. In the minds of many people, it is no longer a case of the marital issues between Danny and Linda, a divorce, and a remarriage. In fact, some believe that those are minor compared to other issues. Some believe that some of the issues can only be resolved with fairness to all involved, in the civil realm. So, the issue now becomes: What can be considered by any body that attempts to resolve issues?

With multiple people involved, it can be expected that there are various thoughts as to what is appropriate. But, some agreement must take place before the attempt to resolve begins. If some issues are not addressed by a group that is attempting to resolve issues, what is to be done in regard to the issues that remain? That is where the second aspect becomes a factor.

2) They must agree upon the goal of this process.

Here are some of the potential goals:

Make a statement of findings of facts.

Make a recommendation for action in regard to specific facts.

Make a decision that is binding on all parties: Folks that can only work if the body has the authority to enforce the binding decision. Some believe that there are decisions that need to be made that can only be enforced by civil authorities.

Make a statement that the respective parties are free to pursue their concerns in the civil realm as that is the proper realm to take such issues, and this body does not have the ability to resolve such issues. Folks, civil governments are established by God. They have their proper realm. It is not a violation of Biblical standards to take to civil government issues that lie in their realm. One such issue would be a criminal issue. Another might be issues involving taxation, and the public accounting that is required by a 501c organization. There are certainly other such issues.

If the respective parties do not agree on the aim of the attempted resolution, none such can take place.

3) They must agree on the process by which this attempt at resolution takes place.

Of course, the process must be fair to all parties, and it must have the appearance of fairness. All must be satisfied that they will be treated in fairness.

There must be agreement as to what will be released about the process, and the decisions made, to the public. Will some information be kept private? Yes, it may be appropriate to keep some information private. If Gloria X testifies that Sam Y had inappropriate sexual contact with her, should Gloria's name be published, along with the details for the world to see?

It has been said in a post made by another that it appears that this process is developing along the lines of a legal process. O.K. There may be some value in this approach. Yet, it may be that a strictly legal process may not be appropriate for this situation. Some aspects of a legal approach may only be appropriate in a civil venue?

Folks, I have been speaking in general terms. In this third aspect the discussions must take place with much specificity. Much is at stake. The decisions made in these aspects are critical to any end result of resolution. These critical discussions will probably require some time for the respective parties to come to agreement.

It may be that no agreement can be achieved? If that is the case, the only avenue left is the civil one.

Where am I in all of this? Do I think that anything can be accomplished? Again, at this point in time, I must speak in generalities, and I cannot be specific in this public statement.

I believe, in theory, that an outside investigative body can be helpful, and bring about some resolution of the issues. I believe that this can be done in a manner that is fair to all involved parties, and to the public at large. Whether or not this will happen, I do not know.

I will simply tell you, as I have done in the past: Honest, and sincere people, from more than one side of these issues, and people who are independent of the issues, are working very hard to come to an agreement. As individuals, they do not agree on every point. But, they are attempting to come to some sort of a common agreement that will be helpful.

If they can achieve this, then the next step will be for the process to take place.

Following that, there must be some sort of a public statement.

At this point in time, what is happening must take place behind closed doors.

NOTE: I have posted in general terms, and I have not revealed anything confidential.

This post has been edited by Observer: Dec 10 2006, 06:34 PM

[Richard Sherwin]

Here is a thought that might have been made before. Lets say that Danny agrees to have ASI do a formal investigation of his divorce. Maybe Danny knows they will find him guilty, he can then make a huge public apology, complete with tears, rebaptism, gnashing of teeth, sack clothes and ashes, the whole nine yards so to speak. And will be give Mandy the old heave? Of course not, why should he if he has confessed his sins? What better way of diverting attention away from the bigger issues? Everyone will be awed by his performance, will send him millions of dollars and forgive him of everything. I think he just might be manipulating all of us.

Richard

[watchbird]

Here is a thought that might have been made before. Lets say that Danny agrees to have ASI do a formal investigation of his divorce. Maybe Danny knows they will find him guilty, he can then make a huge public apology, complete with tears, rebaptism, gnashing of teeth, sack clothes and ashes, the whole nine yards so to speak. And will be give Mandy the old heave? Of course not, why should he if he has confessed his sins? What better way of diverting attention away from the bigger issues? Everyone will be awed by his performance, will send him millions of dollars and forgive him of everything. I think he just might be manipulating all of us.

Richard

This is, IMO, only one of many possible negative scenarios which make the whole idea of having ASI conduct any kind of "hearing" an extremely poor idea.

Fortunately there is little to suggest that any of the parties involved actually want to have this happen. And I think if we read between the lines on Gregory's explanatory post we can see this unlikelyhood very clearly.

As he said... the issues which involve illegal activities can only be settled by a court of law. The issues which involve immoral actions have been sufficiently exposed in public... and even more thoroughly to church officials.... and it is only the church itself which can act to 1) give the appropriate church disciplinary action, and 2) to cut all church ties with 3ABN, and 3) to give public notice that this is true and warn other church entities that they will be in danger of church discipline themselves if they persist in promoting or funding 3AN... either directly by donations or buying airtime, or indirectly by allowing Danny to continue to use church facilities for his "rallies".

There is a significant amount of evidence that in fact, church leaders and entities ARE making some moves in this latter action, but it is being done much too quietly for all victims or potential victims to be aware of their activities. There is also evidence that the reason for not moving more forcefully or publicly is that there are tremendous political pressures and/or fears, such that those who make such decisions are afraid for their future in Adventist leadership were they to come out more openly and state their positions.

That being the case, there needs to be continued efforts to warn the public so as to create a wave of public opinion strong enough to nullify those pressures and fears and untie the hands of those who could put pen to paper and send out public communiques which would in turn strengthen the hands of local entities who would be willing to act locally if they only had permission from their superiors.

Gailon has been promising a web page that would hold the pages of evidence he claims to hold ever since last August, when his first stated target date for "going public" was the US Labor Day... which this year was September 4. He advanced that to later in September... then to November 1. Those dates have come and gone and still no web page. The last date I saw him giving was January 2007. Will that happen? We shall have to wait and see.

[Ed White]

Here is a thought that might have been made before. Lets say that Danny agrees to have ASI do a formal investigation of his divorce. Maybe Danny knows they will find him guilty, he can then make a huge public apology, complete with tears, rebaptism, gnashing of teeth, sack clothes and ashes, the whole nine yards so to speak. And will be give Mandy the old heave? Of course not, why should he if he has confessed his sins? What better way of diverting attention away from the bigger issues? Everyone will be awed by his performance, will send him millions of dollars and forgive him of everything. I think he just might be manipulating all of us.

Richard

I agree, this is sound reasoning Richard but someday as we all know, "manipulating" & gag orders will be a thing of the past. Can't we all see now why the bible prnounces a "woe" directly to lawyers? Anyone remember that verse over in the book of Amos where a man is running from a bear & runs right straight into a lion, be makes it home where he thinks there's safety and put his arm upon a shelf and a snake bites him? ASI may be the bear.

[Clay]

I agree, this is sound reasoning Richard but someday as we all know, "manipulating" & gag orders will be a thing of the past. Can't we all see now why the bible prnounces a "woe" directly to lawyers? Anyone remember that verse over in the book of Amos where a man is running from a bear & runs right straight into a lion, be makes it home where he thinks there's safety and put his arm upon a shelf and a snake bites him? ASI may be the bear.

safe to say you have never needed the services of a lawyer......

[Observer]

Re: "Gailon has been promising a web page that would hold the pages of evidence he claims to hold ever since last August, when his first stated target date for "going public" was the US Labor Day... which this year was September 4. He advanced that to later in September... then to November 1. Those dates have come and gone and still no web page. The last date I saw him giving was January 2007. Will that happen? We shall have to wait and see."

There have been good reasons for the postponements.

The latest January date is an attempt to give the ASI process time to work out an agreement between the parties to resolve the issues. If such an agreement can be reached in December, more time will probably be given for the actual process to take place. But, if December closes with no such agreement, it is likely that this mess will become very public.

It should be noted that this situation may break open without any help from Mr. Joy. The issues are already more public than some realize. Some of us are surprised that more has not already been published in the secular media.

This post has been edited by Observer: Dec 10 2006, 11:48 AM

[Pickle]

Re: "Gailon has been promising a web page that would hold the pages of evidence he claims to hold ever since last August, when his first stated target date for "going public" was the US Labor Day... which this year was September 4. He advanced that to later in September... then to November 1. Those dates have come and gone and still no web page. The last date I saw him giving was January 2007. Will that happen? We shall have to wait and see."

There have been good reasons for the postponements.

The latest January date is an attempt to give the ASI process time to work out an agreement between the parties to resolve the issues. If such an agreement can be reached in December, more time will probably be given for the actual process to take place. But, if December closes with no such agreement, it is likely that this mess will become very public.

It should be noted that this situation may break open without any help from Mr. Joy. The issues are already more public than some realize. Some of us are surprised that more has not already been published in the secular media.

Observer is exactly correct on this one. That's been the delay.

[lurker]

Frankly I do not believe ASI can give a fair "trial" because they can not subpoena evidence such as bank records and tax returns that Danny has hidden and which are necessary to open eyes and to document the whole truth. Now, bank records etc may come out later in the divorce settlement proceedings but that will not help the ASI investigation now and there are other needfull records that by law are closed but which could be ordered to be opened or presented to a court of law. How sad it would be if ASI makes a judgement which is based on false testimony and half truths. When the truth comes out later, will anyone hear about it or will the 3ABN spin machine continue to point to the ASI findings as the final word on the matter?

I think that even if ASI is open minded and fair, Danny may be very convincing unless all the needed information is available to prove whether he is telling the truth or whether he just hoping that no one will question him and dig deep enough to learn what is beneath the surface.

This post has been edited by lurker: Dec 10 2006, 01:50 PM

[Observer]

Frankly I do not believe ASI can give a fair "trial" because they can not subpoena evidence such as bank records and tax returns that Danny has hidden and which are necessary to open eyes and to document the whole truth. Now, bank records etc may come out later in the divorce settlement proceedings but that will not help the ASI investigation now and there are other needfull records that by law are closed but which could be ordered to be opened or presented to a court of law. How sad it would be if ASI makes a judgement which is based on false testimony and half truths. When the truth comes out later, will anyone hear about it or will the 3ABN spin machine continue to point to the ASI findings as the final word on the matter?

I think that even if ASI is open minded and fair, Danny may be very convincing unless all the needed information is available to prove whether he is telling the truth or whether he just hoping that no one will question him and dig deep enough to learn what is beneath the surface.

Lurker, go back to my first post:

What are the issues that will beconsidered?

What is the aim for consideration of those issues?

There are clearly those who believe that some issues are beyond consideration by any group, and must be dwelt wiith by the civil authorities, if at all.

Don't sell ASI, or anyone else short, until the basics, as I mentioned in my first post are decided.

If the process is not fair, it will be recognized by the parties, and likely not take place. Folks, a process that is not fair to one party will not be take place with the cooperation of that party, and possibley others. Under such conditions the process will not take place.

[lurker]

You are right, of course. My point, however, is that the legal inability to get at some records in a mediation process as opposed to being in a court of law is something that some may not have given enough consideration.

Lurker, go back to my first post:

What are the issues that will beconsidered?

What is the aim for consideration of those issues?

There are clearly those who believe that some issues are beyond consideration by any group, and must be dwelt wiith by the civil authorities, if at all.

Don't sell ASI, or anyone else short, until the basics, as I mentioned in my first post are decided.

If the process is not fair, it will be recognized by the parties, and likely not take place. Folks, a process that is not fair to one party will not be take place with the cooperation of that party, and possibley others. Under such conditions the process will not take place.

[Observer]

You are right, of course. My point, however, is that the legal inability to get at some records in a mediation process as opposed to being in a court of law is something that some may not have given enough consideration.

Well, there are those who clearly believe that some issues cannot be resolved by ASI, or anything outside of the civil authorities.

But, if this is true, this does not mean that nothing helpful can be accomplished by this proposed process. Again, the criticial element will be: Will the respective parties agree?

[calvin]

It is hard for me to believe that 3abn/Danny Shelton on its own would agree to ASI or anybody else poking around in his ex-marriage. He has little to gain by exposing himself in this investigation. I know I would not. It’s no ones business why I divorced my spouse (if I had an ex.), even if I was a public figure or for that matter how I run my private business.

I can’t believe this blow-hard Joy character is any threat or what a few hundred folks think on message boards. Most people I talk to outside of these forums, 3abn is a non-issues. So what is bringing Danny to the table? Has his board of directors suddenly got some backbone and demanding it? Are major contributors or ministries that broadcast on 3abn putting the pressure on? What gives?

As for Linda, I think the best advice anybody can give her is to get on with her life. Rack up her marriage to Danny as a bad experience and move on. After all she got two years severance. Better that most if us when we get let go from a job.

[Pickle]

It is hard for me to believe that 3abn/Danny Shelton on its own would agree to ASI or anybody else poking around in his ex-marriage. He has little to gain by exposing himself in this investigation. I know I would not. It’s no ones business why I divorced my spouse (if I had an ex.), even if I was a public figure or for that matter how I run my private business.

I can’t believe this blow-hard Joy character is any threat or what a few hundred folks think on message boards. Most people I talk to outside of these forums, 3abn is a non-issues. So what is bringing Danny to the table? Has his board of directors suddenly got some backbone and demanding it? Are major contributors or ministries that broadcast on 3abn putting the pressure on? What gives?

Calvin, here's the scoop.

Back in mid-August Gailon discovered the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations. He thought they were a hoax and then discovered that they were credible. He began interviewing lots of people and discovered all kinds of things both related and unrelated to Linda.

He then began sending out emails about the situation, and that caught some people's attention. 3ABN was then strongly urged to bring about some sort of resolution through an independent review of the allegations, and involving ASI was a logical choice.

I heard that Danny objected to that, but his board voted to do it anyway. I don't know if that is true. Maybe it isn't. (Gailon said he got that from someone within 3ABN.) But we do know that 3ABN did indeed request ASI to perform a review.

But Danny has made it crystal clear in his correspondence with me that he does not intend ASI to review anything but he and Linda's situation.

Thus, even the very allegations that got all this started to begin with, namely, the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations, Danny indicates in his correspondence with me that ASI will not be allowed to look into. He hopes to be exonerated by the rview, and then use the ASI decision to make all the rest of the allegations go away.

He's dreaming.

[PeacefulBe]

Calvin,
It's good to see you expressing your opinion and I'm so thankful that you have allowed this area of BSDA so that we can express ours as it relates to 3abn topics.

I hear what you are saying regarding chalking some things up to experience. There are things in my own life that have been bitter to swallow but I know eventually I will be vindicated. As far as 3abn goes, some issues will have to wait until Heaven for resolution - other issues just might get handled before then. We'll see how it all plays out.

[Clay]

It is hard for me to believe that 3abn/Danny Shelton on its own would agree to ASI or anybody else poking around in his ex-marriage. He has little to gain by exposing himself in this investigation. I know I would not. It’s no ones business why I divorced my spouse (if I had an ex.), even if I was a public figure or for that matter how I run my private business.

I can’t believe this blow-hard Joy character is any threat or what a few hundred folks think on message boards. Most people I talk to outside of these forums, 3abn is a non-issues. So what is bringing Danny to the table? Has his board of directors suddenly got some backbone and demanding it? Are major contributors or ministries that broadcast on 3abn putting the pressure on? What gives?

As for Linda, I think the best advice anybody can give her is to get on with her life. Rack up her marriage to Danny as a bad experience and move on. After all she got two years severance. Better that most if us when we get let go from a job.

and that is the rub for me.... in a divorce exspouses usually get significantly more unless there is a pre-nup... so instead of 2 years we should be talking half of the marital assets....