News From New Zealand:, Denomination will no longer handle donations for 3abn Options

[watchbird]

Following the announcement about the AF - 3ABN merger being "off", which we have already seen, Adventist Today On-line has this statement from the North New Zealand Conference. Once again a South Pacific Division Conference has given us the first look at a new phase of action regarding 3ABN. Our thanks to the New Zealand Conference.


ADVENTIST NEWS Round up
Posted August 3rd, 2007 by Linda Greer
in Latest Stories


North New Zealand Conference Says that the General Conference has taken action that the SDA Denomination Will No Longer Accept Donations Received For 3ABN
Ervin Taylor, August 3, 2007

Adventist Today has received a copy of the North New Zealand Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, The Bulletin, dated 4 August 2007.

Under a heading of “Important Notice” and “3ABN,” there is this statement:

“[F]ollowing advice received from the South Pacific Division and the General Conference we wish to share the following information with members regarding 3ABN.

3ABN is a privately owned and operated company.

3ABN is not denominationally owned, controlled or operated.

3ABN is not registered by the denomination as a supporting ministry.

Serious legal allegations have been made involving the 3ABN organization which have yet to be resolved.

The General Conference and the South Pacific Division has therefore taken action that the denomination will no longer process and/or accept donations received for 3ABN. Therefore any funds received at the local church after 31st August 2007 . . . must be returned to the donor, and any funds received at the conference office after 20th September will be returned to the source from which they were received.”

In an effort to clarify the statement that “3ABN is not registered by the denomination as a supporting ministry,” Adventist Today contacted Rajmund Dabrowski, General Conference Communication Director by email. Mr. Dabrowski quickly replied to the Adventist Today inquiry. He stated: “I am not aware of any list of supporting ministries that are registered with the General Conference or North-American Division. The closest to such a potential listing is the ASI membership roster which by its nature requires that to join indicates an organization to be supportive of the church. We understand that 3ABN is a current member of ASI. As stated previously, there has been no change or review of the status of 3ABN as a supporting ministry by the Seventh-day Adventist Church.”

Also once again there seems to be the same different use of "registered by the denomination as a supporting ministry" that we saw in a previous letter from an Australian Conference official. What is interesting to me is that this seems to be the only point that Dabrowski challenged from the New Zealand publication, The Bulletin, for it hardly seems possible that this would be the only part of the statement upon which Adventist Today would have queried Dabrowski.

This post has been edited by watchbird: Aug 4 2007, 01:45 AM

[Ozzie]

Following the announcement about the AF - 3ABN merger being "off", which we have already seen, Adventist Today On-line has this statement from the North New Zealand Conference. Once again a South Pacific Division Conference has given us the first look at a new phase of action regarding 3ABN. Our thanks to the New Zealand Conference.
ADVENTIST NEWS Round up
Posted August 3rd, 2007 by Linda Greer
in Latest Stories
North New Zealand Conference Says that the General Conference has taken action that the SDA Denomination Will No Longer Accept Donations Received For 3ABN
Ervin Taylor, August 3, 2007

Adventist Today has received a copy of the North New Zealand Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, The Bulletin, dated 4 August 2007.

Under a heading of “Important Notice” and “3ABN,” there is this statement:

“[F]ollowing advice received from the South Pacific Division and the General Conference we wish to share the following information with members regarding 3ABN.

3ABN is a privately owned and operated company.

3ABN is not denominationally owned, controlled or operated.

3ABN is not registered by the denomination as a supporting ministry.

Serious legal allegations have been made involving the 3ABN organization which have yet to be resolved.

The General Conference and the South Pacific Division has therefore taken action that the denomination will no longer process and/or accept donations received for 3ABN. Therefore any funds received at the local church after 31st August 2007 . . . must be returned to the donor, and any funds received at the conference office after 20th September will be returned to the source from which they were received.”

In an effort to clarify the statement that “3ABN is not registered by the denomination as a supporting ministry,” Adventist Today contacted Rajmund Dabrowski, General Conference Communication Director by email. Mr. Dabrowski quickly replied to the Adventist Today inquiry. He stated: “I am not aware of any list of supporting ministries that are registered with the General Conference or North-American Division. The closest to such a potential listing is the ASI membership roster which by its nature requires that to join indicates an organization to be supportive of the church. We understand that 3ABN is a current member of ASI. As stated previously, there has been no change or review of the status of 3ABN as a supporting ministry by the Seventh-day Adventist Church.”

Also once again there seems to be the same different use of "registered by the denomination as a supporting ministry" that we saw in a previous letter from an Australian Conference official. What is interesting to me is that this seems to be the only point that Dabrowski challenged from the New Zealand publication, The Bulletin, for it hardly seems possible that this would be the only part of the statement upon which Adventist Today would have queried Dabrowski.

Seems to me that the SPD is prepared to stand up and be counted.

I agree Watchbird, that it is most unlikely that Dabrowski would not have been queried on the other issues raised in the New Zealand decision. Seems to me like his comments are meant to be 'politically correct' and not really answer questions put to him. I would feel more comfortable if I saw our GC Communication spokesperson being more open, rather than 'playing games' and avoiding what might be construed, to be 'taking a stand' by the GC. Or, is this his own, personal 'take' on the 3ABN matter?

[Ozzie]

“[F]ollowing advice received from the South Pacific Division and the General Conference we wish to share the following information with members regarding 3ABN.

3ABN is a privately owned and operated company.

3ABN is not denominationally owned, controlled or operated.

3ABN is not registered by the denomination as a supporting ministry.

Serious legal allegations have been made involving the 3ABN organization which have yet to be resolved.

The SPD is only re-stating what 3ABN's legal eagles have already stated in legal documents - that "3ABN is a privately owned and operated company. 3ABN is not denominationally owned, controlled or operated. "

Church Treasurers are already over-worked. I am pleased to see that this is one duty they will not be expected to perform, for an organisation which claims no affiliation with the SDA Church. I think that Danny has shot himself in the foot again.

[SoulEspresso]

The treasurers I know are going to love this. Or not.

But it is a good thing.

[Artiste]

Following the announcement about the AF - 3ABN merger being "off", which we have already seen, Adventist Today On-line has this statement from the North New Zealand Conference. Once again a South Pacific Division Conference has given us the first look at a new phase of action regarding 3ABN. Our thanks to the New Zealand Conference.
ADVENTIST NEWS Round up
Posted August 3rd, 2007 by Linda Greer
in Latest Stories
North New Zealand Conference Says that the General Conference has taken action that the SDA Denomination Will No Longer Accept Donations Received For 3ABN
Ervin Taylor, August 3, 2007

Adventist Today has received a copy of the North New Zealand Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, The Bulletin, dated 4 August 2007.

Under a heading of “Important Notice” and “3ABN,” there is this statement:

“[F]ollowing advice received from the South Pacific Division and the General Conference we wish to share the following information with members regarding 3ABN.

3ABN is a privately owned and operated company.

3ABN is not denominationally owned, controlled or operated.

3ABN is not registered by the denomination as a supporting ministry.

Serious legal allegations have been made involving the 3ABN organization which have yet to be resolved.

The General Conference and the South Pacific Division has therefore taken action that the denomination will no longer process and/or accept donations received for 3ABN. Therefore any funds received at the local church after 31st August 2007 . . . must be returned to the donor, and any funds received at the conference office after 20th September will be returned to the source from which they were received.”

In an effort to clarify the statement that “3ABN is not registered by the denomination as a supporting ministry,” Adventist Today contacted Rajmund Dabrowski, General Conference Communication Director by email. Mr. Dabrowski quickly replied to the Adventist Today inquiry. He stated: [b

]“I am not aware of any list

of [/b]supporting ministries that are registered with the General Conference or North-American Division. The closest to such a potential listing is the ASI membership roster which by its nature requires that to join indicates an organization to be supportive of the church. We understand that 3ABN is a current member of ASI. As stated previously, there has been no change or review of the status of 3ABN as a supporting ministry by the Seventh-day Adventist Church.”

Also once again there seems to be the same different use of "registered by the denomination as a supporting ministry" that we saw in a previous letter from an Australian Conference official. What is interesting to me is that this seems to be the only point that Dabrowski challenged from the New Zealand publication, The Bulletin, for it hardly seems possible that this would be the only part of the statement upon which Adventist Today would have queried Dabrowski.

On the 3ABN website from January 25, 1999 through May 2, 1999, it is stated that 3ABN is a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist church. Beginning October 2, 1999 the site no longer states that on the first page but is listed as being hosted by TAGnet. (There are some copies missing between there in the archives.) The 1997 agreement with the General Conference and Folkenberg is also cited.

TAGnet interestingly enough refers to "Three Angels Global Network" and is stated to be the portal for SDA churches, organizations, and ministries. The 3ABN site was hosted by TAGnet until sometime between June 20 and June 30, 2005 when it was changed to its present format.

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This post has been edited by Artiste: Aug 4 2007, 07:45 AM

[Artiste]

Bulletin, dated 4 August 2007.


In an effort to clarify the statement that “3ABN is not registered by the denomination as a supporting ministry,” Adventist Today contacted Rajmund Dabrowski, General Conference Communication Director by email. Mr. Dabrowski quickly replied to the Adventist Today inquiry. He stated: “I am not aware of any list of supporting ministries that are registered with the General Conference or North-American Division.

This is an extremely misleading statement by the General Conference when compared to Dabrowski's e-mail posted on June 6, 2007.

"In response - all I can say is that there has been no change or review of the status of 3ABN as a supporting ministry by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists."

By implication, the latter statement leaves the clear impression that "supporting ministries" do exist for the SDA church.

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This post has been edited by Artiste: Aug 4 2007, 07:02 AM

[Pickle]

There is a list that is "registered," if that is the right word, with ASI.

Of course, that list is probably not absolutely complete as there would likely be lay-run ministries out there that are fully supportive of the Seventh-day Adventist Church but that are not members of ASI.

[watchbird]

[/b]
I feel that this is an extremely misleading statement by the General Conference when compared to Dabrowski's e-mail posted on June 6, 2007.

"In response - all I can say is that there has been no change or review of the status of 3ABN as a supporting ministry by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists."

By implication, the latter statement leaves the clear impression that "supporting ministries" do exist for the SDA church.

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Of course it does. And "independent ministries" as a category of "ministries" also exist for the church.

I think the key to understanding this is that the church most likely accepts ministries on their own description of themselves as a "supporting ministry". On rare occasions the GC has conducted dialogue and made investigation of a supporting ministry.... usually so far as I recall.... on doctrinal matters. These are major events, involving the setting up of an ad-hoc commitee which may study with the organization for years before it renders a verdict and officially and publicly declares that this ministry can no longer be considered a "supporting ministry" of the Adventist church. Such ministries are then called "independent ministries'. I think what Dabrowski is saying is that this process had not been applied to 3abn. It has, as has been noted, changed its self-proclaimed identity over the years, though not consistently.... nor has it formally asked the denomination to change their status officially. (We should note here, though that not all who call themselves "independent ministies", have gone through that process, but declare themselves as "Independents", sometimes from the very beginning. These are usually those which are highly critical of the denomination and WANT to be seen as separate from them.)

As we have seen, 3ABN has not been challenged on doctrinal bases.... though "we" have noted that in some ways they are doctrinally out of line with what "we" desire to think of as Adventist doctrine. I put "we" in quotes, since not all Adventists see alike on many doctrines anyhow, so what one will criticize about 3abn doctrinally, another might see as being in line with preferred Adventist thought. In fact, it has been my understanding from shortly after I became interested in these issues, that NOT bringing up doctrinal issues was necessary in order to have the greatest cohesiveness among those who shared common views on issues of morality, finance, management, and other such issues.

I think, rather than questioning Dabrowski's motives for being very careful of his wording, we would probably be wiser to account for it by mentally reviewing what we know of how statements are treated by "House of Shelton" voices.

[Artiste]

I think, rather than questioning Dabrowski's motives for being very careful of his wording, we would probably be wiser to account for it by mentally reviewing what we know of how statements are treated by "House of Shelton" voices.

Thank you for that clarification.


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[Artiste]

Should we also consider how the General Conference statements would appear to ASI?

I have the impression that the General Conference is more concerned with their standing with ASI than how 3ABN leadership might interpret and use what they say.

Who is the compelling force here: The General Conference or ASI?


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[SoulEspresso]

ASI is not the final arbiter. The fact that the AF-3ABN merger fell through is as direct evidence as I've ever seen that one of the prime movers in ASI does not always get his way, even if he can pile green portraits of dead Americans in tall stacks.

Keep in mind that the church is trying to handle this in a way that hurts the least amount of people. We'd wish them to take a more direct stand, come what may, but just because they don't doesn't mean they don't see the things we see.

[Artiste]

Keep in mind that the church is trying to handle this in a way that hurts the least amount of people. We'd wish them to take a more direct stand, come what may, but just because they don't doesn't mean they don't see the things we see.

It's hard to feel that way sometimes, but thank you for pointing it out.


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[mikell]

Of course it does. And "independent ministries" as a category of "ministries" also exist for the church.

I think the key to understanding this is that the church most likely accepts ministries on their own description of themselves as a "supporting ministry". On rare occasions the GC has conducted dialogue and made investigation of a supporting ministry.... usually so far as I recall.... on doctrinal matters. These are major events, involving the setting up of an ad-hoc commitee which may study with the organization for years before it renders a verdict and officially and publicly declares that this ministry can no longer be considered a "supporting ministry" of the Adventist church. Such ministries are then called "independent ministries'. I think what Dabrowski is saying is that this process had not been applied to 3abn. It has, as has been noted, changed its self-proclaimed identity over the years, though not consistently.... nor has it formally asked the denomination to change their status officially. (We should note here, though that not all who call themselves "independent ministies", have gone through that process, but declare themselves as "Independents", sometimes from the very beginning. These are usually those which are highly critical of the denomination and WANT to be seen as separate from them.)

As we have seen, 3ABN has not been challenged on doctrinal bases.... though "we" have noted that in some ways they are doctrinally out of line with what "we" desire to think of as Adventist doctrine. I put "we" in quotes, since not all Adventists see alike on many doctrines anyhow, so what one will criticize about 3abn doctrinally, another might see as being in line with preferred Adventist thought. In fact, it has been my understanding from shortly after I became interested in these issues, that NOT bringing up doctrinal issues was necessary in order to have the greatest cohesiveness among those who shared common views on issues of morality, finance, management, and other such issues.

I think, rather than questioning Dabrowski's motives for being very careful of his wording, we would probably be wiser to account for it by mentally reviewing what we know of how statements are treated by "House of Shelton" voices.

WB, interesting what you brought out how the GC, "Made investigation of a supporting ministry.... usually so far as I recall.... on doctrinal matters." That does make sense but even the "independent ministries," who are critical of the GC on doctrinal issues, many of them did not have such the corruption of character as the head of 3ABN does. Therefore, in 3ABN case is not really about doctrinal issues, but that of integrity.

That is the point of the matter; would not Shelton have 3ABN to be mostly doctrinally correct? If 3ABN is totally upholds all of the Seventh day Adventists doctrines, would not that be a nice cool water for the frog and us SDA’s to jump into?

We have heard of a researcher who first threw into boiling water a frog that immediately jumped out. Then he had the water cool down to room temperature and put in the same frog but of course this time did not jump out. Then the researcher turn on the heat, as the water slowly warmed up the frog stayed in and as the water started to boil the frog died. [Where was PETA?] This scenario looking like repeating itself with Shelton's 3ABN and his supporters.

As we know, we Adventists would not jump into boiling water of false doctrines and beliefs. So 3ABN is showing themselves to be all true to Adventist's 27 beliefs to have us Adventists to support Danny’s 3ABN [since it is non-denominational] with our funds. Truly, we hear many Adventists supporting Shelton’s 3ABN, in their thinking that the doctrinal water is just fine for being part of the Church when they see this posted on the 3ABN webpage the “Joint Declaration of Commitment document” between 3ABN and the GC. When they read that, their money comes in.

However, as the years have been rolling by so as the water temperature is been arising to now becoming a boiling water full of corruption! Even though the SDA doctrines of 3ABN have not changed, but it is the corruption that is getting worse. So the water is about at boiling point and still many Adventists have not yet jumped out! I praise the LORD that Doug Bachelor did not jump in! I think he put his big toe in it, and decided to just stay out.

Sadly, for now it is looking like that the GC is not jumping out, but again since Doug has not gone in, many who are in; hopefully will jump out – for it is looking like what the North New Zealand Conference is doing so. Praise God! It is looking like the beginning end, of 3ABN.

My prayer is many more will jump out before being boiled to death along with Shelton and company of his private supporters. They have already drunk the koolade, and are sadly dying – being boiling to death eventually finding themselves resurrecting after the second death.

True, we are not to judge, but seeing people walking towards a cliff, should we not warn them? It is also true, where there is life there is hope, but I just think for some, the koolade has done its deadly work within. Like the frog who would not jump out as the water started to boil and died, many are not as well from the boiling pool of corruption of Danny Shelton -- they too are dying and will die the second death to come!

Those of you the defenders of Danny Shelton’s corruption must stop drinking the Jim Jones Shelton’s koolade, or soon your soul’s conscience will be cooked beyond the pleading of the Holy Spirit to reach sealing your fate forever.

This post has been edited by mikell: Aug 4 2007, 10:20 PM

[Brenda]

As an observation, it is the North New Zealand Conference which has taken this action. There is also a South New Zealand Conference. The NNZC has a much larger membership and the North Island has a considerably greater population than the South. It has just occurred to me, that when 3ABN personnel last visited this part of the world ( I think it was last year, but cannot remember precisely) they only visited the South Island, Christchurch, and did not go to Auckland, the largest city in the country. Similarly in Australia on the same trip, Melbourne was visited but Sydney bypassed. Seems they are choosy about their destinations....and that even then there were probably rumblings that made them uncomfortable.

[Artiste]

Those of you the defenders of Danny Shelton’s corruption must stop drinking the Jim Jones Shelton’s koolade, or soon your soul’s conscience will be cooked beyond the pleading of the Holy Spirit to reach sealing your fate forever.

Well said, Mikell!


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