Larry Romrell: Adventist Connections? Options

[Snoopy]

Funny you should bring that up. I would imagine then that internet solicitation is public solicitation. So where is the check and balance system of Pickle and Joy's legal fund. Have they made themselves into a corporation that can accept solicited funds? Where are the records of the donations that show how much came in, how much went out and to whom? Is it public record everytime they withdraw from their paypal account? And do those records coincide with deposits made into their accounts? Is Joy getting paid to represent himself? If so, is it the same amount that Laird is getting paid? After all, the people that donate to their fund have a right to know exactly where their money is going. Accountability seems to be a favorite word around here. So, who are Pickle and Joy accountable to?

Oh please. Show me where they claim to be a non-profit, tax-exempt organization and then we can make such a comparison.

[Aletheia]

Even before 3ABN got in a dispute with the state of Illinois (as a non church) over property tax usage and before the 990's came under scrutiny, it has been very plain to see that someone at 3ABN has been trying to put it into a position where it does not have to give out financial information. How can it do this?

There are two ways that this might happen:

(1.) Some ministries do not have to fill out 990's because they are under the umbrella of an official church. If 3ABN had merged with Amazing Facts and if the new organization had been under a conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church as Amazing Facts is it probably wouldn't have to file 990's just as Amazing Facts for that reason does not have to file 990's. And I think that getting out of disclosing financial information is part of the reason 3ABN wanted a merger. But if Amazing Facts had moved out from under the umbrella of the church in order to join with 3ABN that objective wouldn't have been gained and Amazing Facts as well as 3ABN would then have both been required to file 990's. Unless....(2.)

(2.) Some ministries can fit into the legal guidelines as churches (denominations). http://www.runquist.com/ARTICLE_ReligTax.htm and do not have to file. See Judge Rowe's words in her ruling saying why 3ABN could not be considered to be a church (denomination). Walt Thompson said "In fact, a few years ago when we were dealing with the State's desire to tax ministry facilities, suggestions were made that if we were to become a Church (denomination) we would be in a better position with the State as far as taxes are concerned. Of course, we did not do that, but it does indicate how we are viewed legally." http://tinyurl.com/289qct Wonder who made that suggestion? Don't tell me that this was not considered, even if just for a moment. And the thought of the possible advantages was planted.

Are you claiming 3ABN doesn't fill out 990's anymore?

Or are you claiming you have verifiable proof they have taken steps to insure they won't have to in the future?

If not, it is not "plain to see that someone at 3ABN has been trying to put it into a position where it does not have to give out financial information"


Just because you or someone you know doesn't have access to all the financial records for an accounting, does not mean that the state and U.S governments, and all who's responsibility it is to audit etc, don't have the necessary information.

This seems to be just speculation on your part, and evil surmising at that, based on your presumption of guilt.

I am reminded of the term "pre-emeptive war". Where you attack before anything occurs, cause it might happen.. I find that absurd.


snipped balance...

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Aug 26 2007, 11:05 AM

[Johann]

Are you claiming 3ABN doesn't fill out 990's anymore?

Or are you claiming you have verifiable proof they have taken steps to insure they won't have to in the future?

If not, it is not "plain to see that someone at 3ABN has been trying to put it into a position where it does not have to give out financial information"
Just because you or someone you know doesn't have access to all the financial records for an accounting, does not mean that the state and U.S governments, and all who's responsibility it is to audit etc, don't have the necessary information.

This seems to be just speculation on your part, and evil surmising at that, based on your presumption of guilt.

I am reminded of the term "pre-emeptive war". Where you attack before anything occurs, cause it might happen.. I find that absurd.
snipped balance...

It seems to me that it is not only my posts you don't read before "attacking".

[lurker]

Are you claiming 3ABN doesn't fill out 990's anymore?

Or are you claiming you have verifiable proof they have taken steps to insure they won't have to in the future?

If not, it is not "plain to see that someone at 3ABN has been trying to put it into a position where it does not have to give out financial information"
Just because you or someone you know doesn't have access to all the financial records for an accounting, does not mean that the state and U.S governments, and all who's responsibility it is to audit etc, don't have the necessary information.

This seems to be just speculation on your part, and evil surmising at that, based on your presumption of guilt.

I am reminded of the term "pre-emeptive war". Where you attack before anything occurs, cause it might happen.. I find that absurd.
snipped balance...

Aletheia, did I say they don't have to fill out 990's? No and I'm not saying that they have taken steps to insure that they won't have to in the future. No one can insure that. They can only move in that direction and hope it works.

Look at D+L Publlishing, DLS Publishing, the house deal, the horse donation and all the other things that have been covered up and tell me that someone wan't trying to prevent public knowledge of them. The auditors have repeatedly said that they don't have all the necessary information to give an accurate audit. They say so in the audits.

I'm saying that they have taken steps away from the official Seventh-day Adventist Church and as time goes by they are conforming to and claiming more and more of the attributes of a separate denomination.

This post has been edited by lurker: Aug 26 2007, 12:19 PM

[Rosyroi]

Aletheia, did I say they don't have to fill out 990's? No and I'm not saying that they have taken steps to insure that they won't have to in the future. No one can insure that. They can only move in that direction and hope it works.

Look at D+L Publlishing, DLS Publishing, the house deal, the horse donation and all the other things that have been covered up and tell me that someone wan't trying to prevent public knowledge of them. The auditors have repeatedly said that they don't have all the necessary information to give an accurate audit. They say so in the audits.

I'm saying that they have taken steps away from the official Seventh-day Adventist Church and as time goes by they are conforming to and claiming more and more of the attributes of a separate denomination.

Johann wrote...
"It seems to me that it is not only my posts you don't read before "attacking"."

Looks like this applied again...

It is all about reading the details. sigh...

Rosyroi

[beartrap]

princessdi,

3abn is not the one legally describing themselves as nondenominational, not affiliated or funded by any denomination, or denominational organization, etc. appletree has very reasonably described that it was the lawyers who wrote this legal stuff. We can only speculate as to why they would need to distance 3abn from the SDA denomination. We all know that it is okay for lawyers to misrepresent the truth a bit, to try to create loopholes by creative wordings or subtle untruths to create the best case for their client. We all know that 3abn would never describe themselves (for they are a supporting ministry of the SDA church and have the contract to prove it)thusly. Right?

You explained that well PB. Thank you

So am I understanding this correctly?

- 3ABN hires lawyers to represent them for the purpose of suing people.

- The lawyers misrepresent the truth

- The lawyers use subtle untruths

And you are okay with that? If we can agree that the part about church affiliation, etc is a misrepresentation using legalese for the purpose of twisting the truth to better the client's chances, that begs the question: how much of that lawsuit consists of misrepresentations and subtle untruths for the purpose of creating the best case for the client?

[Johann]

It is all about reading the details. sigh...

Rosyroi

Too boring to read, especially when you have an agenda and are not concerned about answering questions. Besides, like Danny has proclaimed on TV, Satan is the god of details.

[sonshineonme]

Funny you should bring that up. I would imagine then that internet solicitation is public solicitation. So where is the check and balance system of Pickle and Joy's legal fund. Have they made themselves into a corporation that can accept solicited funds? Where are the records of the donations that show how much came in, how much went out and to whom? Is it public record everytime they withdraw from their paypal account? And do those records coincide with deposits made into their accounts? Is Joy getting paid to represent himself? If so, is it the same amount that Laird is getting paid? After all, the people that donate to their fund have a right to know exactly where their money is going. Accountability seems to be a favorite word around here. So, who are Pickle and Joy accountable to?

Here ya go mr/mrs "appletree"...and anyone else that may like to know.


1) The Contributions to the Joy Pickle Defense Fund deposit directly into the the IOLTA account of Attorney Laird Heal;

2) The Joy Pickle defense fund does not cover any expenses for Joy;

3) The Mass Board of Bar Overseers review all IOLTA accounts annually, therefore there is accountability to the Mass Board of Bar Overseers, probably more reliable than Danny's obviously deficient auditors;

4) When Danny wants to disclose his Legal Bills for the SIX (6) ATTORNEYS that 3ABN has been paying for and the money paid for the his divorce attorneys during the past two years, we will be happy to arrange a copy of the legal bill for Pickle...maybe 3ABN would like to pay that also, now rather than later, and I will bet it is comparably very affordable;

5) When Danny is prepared to account for every dime of royalties earned but undisclosed on the 990's or to his board of directors, we will be happy to provide Danny with an accounting of every dime in the defense fund, or he can make an early contribution and I will credit it to the award in 2009;

6) Joy is not paid to represent himself, unlike Danny's Royalty problems, but Joy does intend to get paid quite handsomely by 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton, his board, et al, for the grotesque misuse of process that this action represents... and Joy intends to collect sometime in 2009.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter



This post has been edited by sonshineonme: Aug 26 2007, 08:39 PM

[Snoopy]

So, appletree... All this discussion of 3ABN's non-denominational, unique message brings up a question. For all of those SDA donors who thought they were contributing to an SDA ministry...does 3ABN now have a process in place to refund the donations of those SDA donors who are dismayed to learn that 3ABN claims no ties to the Adventist Church?????

APPLETREE!!!! Where are you????

This is a serious question to which I would appreciate a serious answer.

For folks who thought they were contributing to an SDA ministry, WHAT IS THE PROCESS TO GET THEIR DONATIONS REFUNDED???

[panther]

Wanta bet sonshine? Mr. Joy better have a "plan B" because plan A isn't going to happen. None of God's money will ever go to that man!

ta ta!


Lee

PS: I didn't see any documentation about Joy and Pickles defense fund--sorry, I don't believe it unless there is documentation (not that I care anyway).

[Snoopy]

APPLETREE!!!! Where are you????

This is a serious question to which I would appreciate a serious answer.

For folks who thought they were contributing to an SDA ministry, WHAT IS THE PROCESS TO GET THEIR DONATIONS REFUNDED???

OK, "ta ta" panther....

You seem quite sure of yourself when it comes to "God's money", or whatever is left after Danny's basketball courts and trucks are paid for.

How can those gullible donors who thought they were contributing to an SDA ministry get their money back??

TATATATATATATATA.......


Hey Sonshine,

Is there any possibility of a class action suit???

~~Snoopy~~

This post has been edited by Snoopy: Aug 26 2007, 08:59 PM

[ex3ABNemployee]

Wanta bet sonshine? Mr. Joy better have a "plan B" because plan A isn't going to happen. None of God's money will ever go to that man!

ta ta!
Lee

PS: I didn't see any documentation about Joy and Pickles defense fund--sorry, I don't believe it unless there is documentation (not that I care anyway).

But it's ok for it to go to attorneys who are suing a brother in the faith?

[Observer]

Here ya go mr/mrs "appletree"...and anyone else that may like to know.


1) The Contributions to the Joy Pickle Defense Fund deposit directly into the the IOLTA account of Attorney Laird Heal;

2) The Joy Pickle defense fund does not cover any expenses for Joy;

3) The Mass Board of Bar Overseers review all IOLTA accounts annually, therefore there is accountability to the Mass Board of Bar Overseers, probably more reliable than Danny's obviously deficient auditors;

4) When Danny wants to disclose his Legal Bills for the SIX (6) ATTORNEYS that 3ABN has been paying for and the money paid for the his divorce attorneys during the past two years, we will be happy to arrange a copy of the legal bill for Pickle...maybe 3ABN would like to pay that also, now rather than later, and I will bet it is comparably very affordable;

5) When Danny is prepared to account for every dime of royalties earned but undisclosed on the 990's or to his board of directors, we will be happy to provide Danny with an accounting of every dime in the defense fund, or he can make an early contribution and I will credit it to the award in 2009;

6) Joy is not paid to represent himself, unlike Danny's Royalty problems, but Joy does intend to get paid quite handsomely by 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton, his board, et al, for the grotesque misuse of process that this action represents... and Joy intends to collect sometime in 2009.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

Appletree:

As I said, Joy would be quite willing to respond.

If that was your best shot, I am sorry for you.

[fallible humanbe...]

3) The Mass Board of Bar Overseers review all IOLTA accounts annually, therefore there is accountability to the Mass Board of Bar Overseers, probably more reliable than Danny's obviously deficient auditors;

So since this is a monetary benefit for at least Robert Pickle, will the save/not team not have to claim this on their 1040s as income of some sort? If so, who is going to make sure they are being accountable? Will you, ssom, or will they publish their returns?

4) When Danny wants to disclose his Legal Bills for the SIX (6) ATTORNEYS that 3ABN has been paying for and the money paid for the his divorce attorneys during the past two years, we will be happy to arrange a copy of the legal bill for Pickle...maybe 3ABN would like to pay that also, now rather than later, and I will bet it is comparably very affordable;

A prime example of how the save/not crowd just have not been "listening" . . . the legal fees are not being paid from the coffers of 3ABN, they are being handled by a group of supporters who have taken this responsibility on. But, to accept such wouldn't allow this group the opportunity to continue to rail on this issue, so of course they will not acknowledge it - or they just simply haven't been reading.

5) When Danny is prepared to account for every dime of royalties earned but undisclosed on the 990's or to his board of directors, we will be happy to provide Danny with an accounting of every dime in the defense fund, or he can make an early contribution and I will credit it to the award in 2009;

The members of the save/not crowd would not/will not ever make anything of this sort public regardless of what 3ABN, Danny or any of the others they have attempted to commit character assassination on made their information public IMRO.

6) Joy is not paid to represent himself, unlike Danny's Royalty problems, but Joy does intend to get paid quite handsomely by 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton, his board, et al, for the grotesque misuse of process that this action represents... and Joy intends to collect sometime in 2009.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

Has Gailon Joy been granted prophetic powers? Or is this a case of "If Wishes Were Fishes . . . We'd All Have a Fry"

- FHB

This post has been edited by fallible humanbeing: Aug 26 2007, 09:38 PM

[Ozzie]

A prime example of how the save/not crowd just have not been "listening" . . . the legal fees are not being paid from the coffers of 3ABN, they are being handled by a group of supporters who have taken this responsibility on. But, to accept such wouldn't allow this group the opportunity to continue to rail on this issue, so of course they will not acknowledge it - or they just simply haven't been reading.
- FHB

So, these 'loyal supporters' see this as 'THEIR MONEY' rather than God's money do they? Srewardship principles remind us that ALL that we have, belongs to God. We are favoured with the means to do God's Will and His Work. Would you call it 'responsible stewardship' taking brethren to Court? I wonder how God sees it, or doesn't that matter to DS and Co?