Forgiveness, Must someone ask for it first before being forgiven? Options

[justice4jesus]

Much has been said about the act of forgiving Tommy Shelton for what has transpired over the years. I believe that even these acts can be forgiven, but when can forgiveness actually be extended?

God forgives sins of all kinds, but He does not extend this forgiveness until we ASK Him to forgive us. My question is, should we follow this same example? Many of Tommy's victims have not received a request for forgiveness. Can they forgive him even before he asks them to do so? Should they be expected to extend forgiveness before Tommy asks for it, just as God does not extend His forgiveness for all of our sins before we ask Him?

This is not an attempt to start a doctrinal argument. This is a serious question in the search for deep discussion of the issue at hand. The fact is, this applies not only to the Tommy Shelton situation, but to life in general, so this discussion could be a help to many people in all kinds of situations.

The question is very simple....As God does not forgive until He is asked to do so, should we use this same method with those who have wronged us?

[Snoopy]

Much has been said about the act of forgiving Tommy Shelton for what has transpired over the years. I believe that even these acts can be forgiven, but when can forgiveness actually be extended?

God forgives sins of all kinds, but He does not extend this forgiveness until we ASK Him to forgive us. My question is, should we follow this same example? Many of Tommy's victims have not received a request for forgiveness. Can they forgive him even before he asks them to do so? Should they be expected to extend forgiveness before Tommy asks for it, just as God does not extend His forgiveness for all of our sins before we ask Him?

This is not an attempt to start a doctrinal argument. This is a serious question in the search for deep discussion of the issue at hand. The fact is, this applies not only to the Tommy Shelton situation, but to life in general, so this discussion could be a help to many people in all kinds of situations.

The question is very simple....As God does not forgive until He is asked to do so, should we use this same method with those who have wronged us?

You raise a great question, J4J. My humble opinion is that yes, forgiveness can be extended without it being requested. I think the difference is in who actually benefits from the forgiveness. I have had many serious wrongs done to me, and I sure I am no different than anyone else who interacts with humans! And I have really struggled with the whole forgiveness thing.

I didn't want to give the one who wronged me the benefit of my forgiveness until they came to me and asked for it. But that approach turned out to be more hurtful to me than to the one(s) who had hurt me. By being able to forgive, I was more able to let the wrongs go in my own heart and move past them, regardless of the perspective of the "wronger". Now, if the "wronger" was able to approach me to talk about the issue and ask for my forgiveness, it greatly assisted my ability to FORGET! But when I was able to forgive the behavior even before the request came, it gave me the ability to move on (which turns out to be really important if the request never comes!). I guess for me, forgiveness is the ability to give up the hurt and turn it over to the Lord, leaving its final resolution between Him and the "wronger".

Maybe that sounds selfish, but that's what has worked for me. I am a firm believer that there is a great difference between FORGIVING vs. FORGETTING.

~~Snoopy~~

This post has been edited by Snoopy: Sep 8 2007, 02:56 PM

[LeePaDee]

JUSTICE4JESUS WROTE:
The question is very simple....As God does not forgive until He is asked to do so, should we use this same method with those who have wronged us?
------God does not forgive until...???? which scripture says that??

[Artiste]

JUSTICE4JESUS WROTE:
The question is very simple....As God does not forgive until He is asked to do so, should we use this same method with those who have wronged us?
------God does not forgive until...???? which scripture says that??

It goes like this: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". (reference?)


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[lurker]

I believe forgiving helps the one doing the forgiving. It helps us go on with life. You can forgive but still be realistic about the forgiven one's trustworthiness or lack of trustworthiess. When we know that someone has committed certain sins and has not repented, such a one is in no position to be put in a place where they would be tempted, both for their own sake and for the sake of any possible future victims.

God forgave Adam and Eve when they sinned (Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundtion of the world.) but He turned them out of the Garden so they wouldn't eat of the tree of life. God has forgivn enerybody for everything else except the only sin God cannot forgive is the sin against the Holy Spirit. That is, hardening the heart against the Holy Spirit until one of 3 things happens:

1.The sinner no longer feels the Holy Spirit drwing him to repentence. OR
2.The sinner dies without repenting and surrendering to God. OR
3.Probation closes for everybody.

If we commit the sin against the Holy Spirit there remains no sacrifice for sin for us and we will be judged for everything we have done including sins that God forgave until we made it impossible for Him to keep forgiving us.

This post has been edited by lurker: Sep 8 2007, 03:28 PM

[Grith]

------God does not forgive until...???? which scripture says that??

Try 1 John 1:9; Matthew 6:12; Mark 11:25-26

JUSTICE4JESUS WROTE:
The question is very simple....As God does not forgive until He is asked to do so, should we use this same method with those who have wronged us?

Remember what Jesus prayed: "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots." (Luke 23:34). The soldiers didn't ask for forgiveness, but Jesus prayed for them. His prayer says to me that He was willing to forgive them though they didn't ask. I think Snoopy said it well. We forgive, because very often those who don't, hold onto their anger which turns to bitterness and poisons the embittered person mentally, spiritually, and physically.

Perhaps we can say it this way. God has forgiveness available and waiting for every human on the planet. He extends that forgiveness and covers our sins with His blood when He is asked. When we forgive others without their asking, we are actually surrendering our hurt, angry, bitter feelings to Jesus and in its place He gives us His peace that passes all understanding. Then if the person who wronged us actually asks for forgiveness, we are in the proper state of mind spiritually to extend forgiveness lovingly, kindly and without wanting revenge. Even if the wrongdoer never asks, we have given it up to the One who told us to cast our cares on Him, for His burden is light (Matthew 11:28-30), and who has promised that vengeance is His and He will repay (Romans 12:19).

[Dallas]

The Bible is very clear, when Jesus died on the cross he was the propitiation for our sins and the sins of the entire world, from beginning to end, for all time. Otherwise he would have to come and be sacrificed again each time someone asks for forgiveness. Since he has already paid the price for the sin that you are asking forgiveness for, He has already forgiven you.

Our asking for forgiveness does not in any way change how God views us it is to remind us how we should view God. When I ask for forgiveness I’m basically saying God I can’t do it, I’ve tried and I have failed, I must rely upon you to make it right, because I am truly unworthy of what you did to obtain life for me because of my sin.

The Bible explains that our Salvation is based totally upon our belief in the fact that Jesus paid the price and was truly the propitiation for my sins. Paul is very clear, that there are only be two camps, those who believe and those who do not believe. John 3:16 the most quoted verse in the Bible states that our salvations is based totally upon our belief. My sin or lack of sin then cannot change how God views me because Jesus has paid for all sin. And my salvation is based on my belief, then the confessing of my sins only changes the perception that I have of God and not what he has of me! The change in my attitude then draws me closer to God out of Love and not fear of where I'll go!!

Much has been said about the act of forgiving Tommy Shelton for what has transpired over the years. I believe that even these acts can be forgiven, but when can forgiveness actually be extended?

God forgives sins of all kinds, but He does not extend this forgiveness until we ASK Him to forgive us. My question is, should we follow this same example? Many of Tommy's victims have not received a request for forgiveness. Can they forgive him even before he asks them to do so? Should they be expected to extend forgiveness before Tommy asks for it, just as God does not extend His forgiveness for all of our sins before we ask Him?

This is not an attempt to start a doctrinal argument. This is a serious question in the search for deep discussion of the issue at hand. The fact is, this applies not only to the Tommy Shelton situation, but to life in general, so this discussion could be a help to many people in all kinds of situations.

The question is very simple....As God does not forgive until He is asked to do so, should we use this same method with those who have wronged us?

This post has been edited by Dallas: Sep 8 2007, 04:54 PM

[Artiste]

Much has been said about the act of forgiving Tommy Shelton for what has transpired over the years. I believe that even these acts can be forgiven, but when can forgiveness actually be extended?

The possibililty of forgiving Tommy Shelton ... well one way to make this easier would be to remove him from 3ABN's programming, which I understand was done completely for Linda a few years ago.

I just watched Tommy Shelton, on Sabbath afternoon, accompanying a sweet little boy who was singing on Kids Time. Tommy was smiling...


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This post has been edited by Artiste: Sep 8 2007, 04:52 PM

[PeacefulBe]

You raise a great question, J4J. My humble opinion is that yes, forgiveness can be extended without it being requested. I think the difference is in who actually benefits from the forgiveness. I have had many serious wrongs done to me, and I sure I am no different than anyone else who interacts with humans! And I have really struggled with the whole forgiveness thing.

I didn't want to give the one who wronged me the benefit of my forgiveness until they came to me and asked for it. But that approach turned out to be more hurtful to me than to the one(s) who had hurt me. By being able to forgive, I was more able to let the wrongs go in my own heart and move past them, regardless of the perspective of the "wronger". Now, if the "wronger" was able to approach me to talk about the issue and ask for my forgiveness, it greatly assisted my ability to FORGET! But when I was able to forgive the behavior even before the request came, it gave me the ability to move on (which turns out to be really important if the request never comes!). I guess for me, forgiveness is the ability to give up the hurt and turn it over to the Lord, leaving its final resolution between Him and the "wronger".

Maybe that sounds selfish, but that's what has worked for me. I am a firm believer that there is a great difference between FORGIVING vs. FORGETTING.

~~Snoopy~~

Snoopy,

What an important statement you have made here! In my own life I have had to face the same struggle to forgive some for things that they have done to me but never admitted to, apologized or asked forgiveness for. Some of these people are long dead but, until I could forgive, their actions continued to cripple my life. That robbed me of many years that could have been spent in far more productive pursuits. Essentially, I robbed myself!

I pray that every victim of abuse, which includes any who might have been abused by Tommy Shelton, will read or hear the message in what you have said and take it to heart. We have heard reports that some of those who alledge abuse by Tommy Shelton have had problems with substance abuse and failed relationships. These victims may not have been able to forgive and may not have the spiritual understanding to do so. If they are, indeed, victims of abuse, the constant denial by the abuser and the abuser's family further compounds the victimization that they feel and further destroys their lives. This further destruction can stop, to a large degree, if they will take that hard step to forgive anyway.

If Tommy is guilty of abuse, he also needs to experience the true forgiveness that repentence - an acknowledging of and turning away from sin - can bring. He is precious to the Savior just as are each of his alleged victims.

For the sake of the alleged victims as well as for Tommy himself, I pray that the real truth in this sad situation will be fully brought to light and the allegations proven, once and for all, to either be true or false.

[Observer]

The Bible is very clear, when Jesus died on the cross he was the propitiation for our sins and the sins of the entire world, from beginning to end, for all time. Otherwise he would have to come and be sacrificed again each time someone asks for forgiveness. Since he has already paid the price for the sin that you are asking forgiveness for, He has already forgiven you.

Our asking for forgiveness does not in any way change how God views us it is to remind us how we should view God. When I ask for forgiveness I’m basically saying God I can’t do it, I’ve tried and I have failed, I must rely upon you to make it right, because I am truly unworthy of what you did to obtain life for me because of my sin.

The Bible explains that our Salvation is based totally upon our belief in the fact that Jesus paid the price and was truly the propitiation for my sins. Paul is very clear, that there are only be two camps, those who believe and those who do not believe. John 3:16 the most quoted verse in the Bible states that our salvations is based totally upon our belief. My sin or lack of sin then cannot change how God views me because Jesus has paid for all sin. And my salvation is based on my belief, then the confessing of my sins only changes the perception that I have of God and not what he has of me! The change in my attitude then draws me closer to God out of Love and not fear of where I'll go!!

I happen to agree with Dallas on this point. What Christ accomplished at Calvary, on the cross, forgive all past sins ever committed prior to that time, and all future sins to be committed following that time. That forgiveness does not depend upon anything that we humans might do to include asking for forgiveness.

However, we must be clear that the forgiveness of Christ does not mean that we will spend eternity with him.

You see we can still reject that forgiveness. We can still reject salvation. We can still assert that we have not sinned, and do not need Christ's salvation. We can still continue in our sinfull way.l Eternal salvation is not forced upon anyone. We who do not want to spend eternity with Christ, and prefer to go our own way, will not be forced to spend eternity with him.

But, the forgiveness of Christ has covered all sin, for all time, for eternity, and for all people. Those peopole who will be eternally lost are those who have rejected what Christ has freely offered them. That rejection is something that we have the freedom to do.

[justice4jesus]

Great commentary! Y'know, that's what's so appealing about the people here....open, honest discussion, seeking out any and all points of view and weighing the pros and cons of each until one good point stands out among the rest, with none of the childish "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude, except, of course, from some in the Danny crowd.

The point was raised that forgiveness is offered freely since Jesus died at Calvary. Correct! The point is also raised that we have the option to either accept or reject that forgiveness. Correct! The issue of whether we spend eternity with Jesus or go to Hell is our choice.

In regard to the case with Tommy, I hope that all of the victims can find it in their hearts to offer forgiveness for what has happened. It is up to Tommy to either accept or reject that forgiveness once it is offered. We must pray for everyone involved....for the victims AND for Tommy. Regardless, Tommy still must be expected to make restitution in whatever ways possible. Even if forgiveness is offered and accepted, there is still a price to pay.

Thanks for all the insight so far. It has helped me to sort out some things in regard to this issue. If anyone else has anything to add, please feel free.

[Johann]

Great commentary! Y'know, that's what's so appealing about the people here....open, honest discussion, seeking out any and all points of view and weighing the pros and cons of each until one good point stands out among the rest, with none of the childish "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude, except, of course, from some in the Danny crowd.

The point was raised that forgiveness is offered freely since Jesus died at Calvary. Correct! The point is also raised that we have the option to either accept or reject that forgiveness. Correct! The issue of whether we spend eternity with Jesus or go to Hell is our choice.

In regard to the case with Tommy, I hope that all of the victims can find it in their hearts to offer forgiveness for what has happened. It is up to Tommy to either accept or reject that forgiveness once it is offered. We must pray for everyone involved....for the victims AND for Tommy. Regardless, Tommy still must be expected to make restitution in whatever ways possible. Even if forgiveness is offered and accepted, there is still a price to pay.

Thanks for all the insight so far. It has helped me to sort out some things in regard to this issue. If anyone else has anything to add, please feel free.

This is beautifully worded, and is very true. I know that Linda has long since forgiven both Danny, Walt Thompson, John Lomacang, and all the others for the false accusations they have hurled at her and others, both through TV and other media since 2004. The question is, have they received the forgiveness as long as they make no indication they have accepted it? Do they accept the forgiveness of God, if they do not accept the forgiveness of a human being, and do nothing to make up for their great sin?

[Pickle]

"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him" (Lk. 17:3, 4).

Here we have an instance where repentance is almost appears to be a condition for our forgiveness of the sins of others.

Forgive comes from the Greek word aphiemi, which means to forsake or send away, as when the disciples forsook Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane (Mt 26:56; Mk. 14:50), or their nets beside Galilee (Mk. 1:18). Thus, it appears that forgive means in essence to forsake or send away or drop the sins that could be held against another. God, or we, drop charges, as it were.

Now in looking at the totality of Scripture, it appears that there are varying degrees of God not pressing charges against us. If there had been no forgiveness of any sort in Eden, then Adam and Eve would have perished right then and there. But to be able to live eternally and thus have charges dropped forever, certain conditions had to be met.

We would all do well to have the attitude of Christ, "Father, forgive them," even when no repentance is seen.

But to drop charges to the point that Peter would become the spokesman of the disciples on the day of Pentecost, certain conditions had to be met.

[justice4jesus]

"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him" (Lk. 17:3, 4).

Here we have an instance where repentance is almost appears to be a condition for our forgiveness of the sins of others.

Forgive comes from the Greek word aphiemi, which means to forsake or send away, as when the disciples forsook Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane (Mt 26:56; Mk. 14:50), or their nets beside Galilee (Mk. 1:18). Thus, it appears that forgive means in essence to forsake or send away or drop the sins that could be held against another. God, or we, drop charges, as it were.

Now in looking at the totality of Scripture, it appears that there are varying degrees of God not pressing charges against us. If there had been no forgiveness of any sort in Eden, then Adam and Eve would have perished right then and there. But to be able to live eternally and thus have charges dropped forever, certain conditions had to be met.

We would all do well to have the attitude of Christ, "Father, forgive them," even when no repentance is seen.

But to drop charges to the point that Peter would become the spokesman of the disciples on the day of Pentecost, certain conditions had to be met.

You have raised an interesting point, Pickle. Offering forgiveness even when there has been no repentance is a very effective way for all of us to exhibit the attitude of our hearts toward whoever has wronged us in whatever way(s).

If someone has wronged us and refuses to repent, and yet we pray "Father, forgive them", will God actually extend this forgiveness even in the absence of repentance? That, of course, is God's business, but if we sincerely pray "Father, forgive them", we are less likely to harbor a spirit of revenge. Vengeance is the Lord's, not ours.

[Pickle]

"While the soldiers were doing their fearful work, Jesus prayed for His enemies, 'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.' His mind passed from His own suffering to the sin of His persecutors, and the terrible retribution that would be theirs. No curses were called down upon the soldiers who were handling Him so roughly. No vengeance was invoked upon the priests and rulers, who were gloating over the accomplishment of their purpose. Christ pitied them in their ignorance and guilt. He breathed only a plea for their forgiveness,--'for they know not what they do.'

"Had they known that they were putting to torture One who had come to save the sinful race from eternal ruin, they would have been seized with remorse and horror. But their ignorance did not remove their guilt; for it was their privilege to know and accept Jesus as their Saviour. Some of them would yet see their sin, and repent, and be converted. Some by their impenitence would make it an impossibility for the prayer of Christ to be answered for them" (DA 744, 745)

"Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously" (1 Pet. 2:23).

He who says that vengeance is His will assuredly do the right thing at the right time, and that promise can liberate us to the point that we pray, "Father, forgive them."