10 Commandments Twice Removed - Amazon $0.01, what does it say in a nutshell? Options

[Statrei]

I thought I did. Didn't I?

You know you did not. Posting a quotation from the originator of the view hardly qualifies as evidence that the Holy Spirit endorses the view.

[Pickle]

You know you did not. Posting a quotation from the originator of the view hardly qualifies as evidence that the Holy Spirit endorses the view.

Long before Ellen White was born, the Baptist commentator John Gill wrote:

Ver. 14. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances, &c.] Various are the senses interpreters give of these words; some think by the handwriting is meant the covenant God made with Adam, #Ge 2:17, which being broken, obliged him and all his posterity to the penalty of death, but is cancelled and abolished by Christ; others, the agreement which the Israelites made with God at Mount Sinai, when they said, "all that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient," #Ex 24:7; which was as it were setting their hands, and laying themselves under obligation to obedience, and, in case of failure, to the penalty of the law; others, God’s book of remembrance of the sins of men, out of which they are blotted when pardoned; others, the book of conscience, which bears witness to every debt, to every violation and transgression of the law, which may be said to be blotted out, when pacified with an application of the blood and righteousness of Christ; rather with others it signifies the ceremonial law, which lay in divers ordinances and commands, and is what, the apostle afterwards speaks of more clearly and particularly; and may be called so, because submission to it was an acknowledgment both of the faith and guilt of sin; every washing was saying, that a man was polluted and unclean; and every sacrifice was signing a man’s own guilt and condemnation, and testifying that he deserved to die as the creature did, which was offered in sacrifice: or rather the whole law of Moses is intended, which was the handwriting of God, and obliged to obedience to it, and to punishment in case of disobedience; and this the Jews {z} call bwx rjv, "the writing of the debt," and is the very phrase the Syriac version uses here: now this was as a debt book, which showed and testified the debts of men; that is, their sins, how many they are guilty of, and what punishment is due unto them: and may well be said to be that

So there is no way that Ellen White originated the view.

But regardless, I posted a quotation written by someone who was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

[västergötland]

Go to any cemetary and toss as many buckets of water on the tombstones as you want, and the letters won't disappear.

If the cemetary is old enough, not all of the stones will still be readable. How did that happen? And if you were to take one of the stones and store it in a waterfall for some time, the text would bleach away soon enough.

There is no indication whatsoever in Col. 2:14 that Paul meant a blotting out that takes years to happen.

It does look like a figure of speach. As such it would not be intended to be taken quite so litterarily.

I have an engraved piece of granite. Come over to my house and drive a nail through it. I dare you to try.

There is no indication whatsoever that God wrote the 10 Commandments on stone akin to slate.

There are also no indications that He did not.

The first time I did this illustration in a sermon, the burly farmer wouldn't try to nail the stone, but he sure went at it with the phone book. I had to stop him because the nail was long enough that it would have gone through the book and the board into the pulpit.

And as many times as I've done this, not once has the paper broke.

Depends on what you mean by "broke".

[västergötland]

Interesting.

And how do you make the same point that Jesus made when He said, "Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken" (Luke 24:25)? We certainly can't have folks elevating Ellen White to the Roman Catholic mary, but equally as dangerous is unbelief of the kind Jesus warned about.

I dont doubt that the prophets prophecy about Jesus and that they foretell Him. Thats what Jesus was talking about on that Emmaus road, wasnt it?

[Clay]

I dont doubt that the prophets prophecy about Jesus and that they foretell Him. Thats what Jesus was talking about on that Emmaus road, wasnt it?

probably, however nothing like stretching a text to make a ummmm point.....

[awesumtenor]

Long before Ellen White was born, the Baptist commentator John Gill wrote:
So there is no way that Ellen White originated the view.

But regardless, I posted a quotation written by someone who was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Before you attribute her stating it to the Holy Spirit, you first have to show she didn't get it from Gill... unless, of course, you are saying Gill is now an inspired writer... along with Matthew Henry and Clarke and Barnes... since all make the claim... rather than going through all these gyrations to make it seem a divine revelation, it makes far more sense to say this was something she retained from the Methodism of her youth, where she was exposed to all of the above commentators and which she presumed true because of the ubiquitous nature of the teaching...

In His service,
Mr. J

[GRAT]

Maybe off topic but I heard part of a sermon by Dwight Nelson where he indicated (if I understood correctly) he felt that the stone the 10 commandments were written on may have been made of the same material that the throne of God was made of or sat on - Jasper maybe? Anyway I liked the thought.

[Clay]

Maybe off topic but I heard part of a sermon by Dwight Nelson where he indicated (if I understood correctly) he felt that the stone the 10 commandments were written on may have been made of the same material that the throne of God was made of or sat on - Jasper maybe? Anyway I liked the thought.

interesting.... i suppose that statement could be attributed to divine imagination......

[Denny]

interesting.... i suppose that statement could be attributed to divine imagination......

of just a fertile one considering Moses smashed it to pieces.....

[watchbird]

In adition to what WatchBird said, I want to add that the formal titles with Ellen can be seen as hijacked by the groups within Adventism who are Ellenatorious. Those who make Ellen into the likeness of the Roman Catholic Mary. I am conciously making a statement against that by only using the first name.

I fail to see how you are making any kind of statment against Mariolotry by "using the first name". Frankly, I've never heard Mary referred to by anything other than her first name.

But I do agree with the point you are making. That rather than seeing Ellen as a fellow human and church member to whom God gave messages for our benefit, some in our church elevate her to a position that is inappropriate and incorrect.

[awesumtenor]

Go to any cemetary and toss as many buckets of water on the tombstones as you want, and the letters won't disappear.

Go to the same cemetery with a high pressure power washer, however... if I can still deliver as much water as I want, I can take the letters off...

There is no indication whatsoever that God wrote the 10 Commandments on stone akin to slate.

There is no indication they were written in granite either... the geology of the region says either sandstone or basalt are far more likely...

In His service,
Mr. J

[watchbird]

It isn't contrived.

Obviously, we disagree.

As I've told Sunday keepers a number of times who claim that Col. 2:14 is talking about the 10 Commandments anyway, since it's only metaphorical, then Paul chose the wrong metaphors, since the language doesn't fit.
. . . .
But I thought we agreed on that?

We agree on it not being the 10 commandments that were nailed to the cross. We agree that Paul was using metaphorical language. We disagree when you switch to literal language and claim that he was talking about the ceremonial law.... when the language used does not speak of laws but writings... accusations, in fact.... against us... each one of us. And what Paul is saying is that Christ took all of these bills of indebtedness against us and wrote "paid in full" with his own blood on every one of them.

J. N. Andrews certainly is considered a scholar, and I was happy to discover that he wrote out the same ideas I came up with.

In his day.... "considered".... yes.... but he didn't even have the tools that today's scholars have to determine the best interpretations of a text.

You can choose to put human reason above what God has testified by His Spirit through His prophet, but I shall not. Yet you aren't really making sense, since "sound exegisis of the text" of Col. 2:14 in no way contradicts what I wrote.

Since there are scholars on all sides of these issues, obviously you can choose which one you want to agree with. But when you so choose, you are using "human reason" just as much as I am when I choose to believe scholars who say that it means something different. And if you are speaking of Ellen White when you say "His prophet"... rather than of Paul who wrote it in the first place... then you will have to show that somewhere the Holy Spirit expressly dictated that interpretation to her.... which you cannot do.

. . .
"There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. " R&H, Dec 20, 1892

This statement is the only motivation for everything I've said in this thread.
. . . .

I can take your walk into account... but if you are not yet at the place in said walk where you can handle topics that will question what you believe without your taking it as a personal affront, then perhaps you would be better served to avoid those topics... as EGW notes above "Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation."

If [we] believed this, then there need be no rush to stave off said close investigation in the name of "defending God's prophet".. nor is there a need to paint those who would closely examine as being anti-EGW... particularly in a topic where she was not even at issue.

In His service,
Mr. J

Amen and amen, Mr J.

For those who are ready to closely examine the development of Ellen's own views.... and she did, after all, significantly change her own views on some topics after the 1982 date of the quotation... and she had already changed some between the time she first began to tell her visions and this date. So this was not merely something she said that sounded good.... but was something that she genuinely believed, and lived in accordance with...... But I derail my own train of thought.... to get back on track by starting over again.....

For those who are ready to closely examine the development of Ellen's own views, I again highly recommend the book that is available for reading on the SDAnet/At Issue site, More Than a Prophet, by Graeme Bradford. And for the person who would prefer to listen rather than read, I recommend the Inspiration/Revelation Conference held jointly by Alden Thompson and Graeme Bradford, in Glendale, Arizona, Spring, 2006.

Alden especially, explicates some of the changes she made in her views on various topics.

[västergötland]

Maybe off topic but I heard part of a sermon by Dwight Nelson where he indicated (if I understood correctly) he felt that the stone the 10 commandments were written on may have been made of the same material that the throne of God was made of or sat on - Jasper maybe? Anyway I liked the thought.

Where would Moses have found Jasper out in the desert?

[västergötland]

I fail to see how you are making any kind of statment against Mariolotry by "using the first name". Frankly, I've never heard Mary referred to by anything other than her first name.

Not against Mariolotry, but against the tendency to ascribe the same characteristics of Mariolotry to Ellen White. The people who are in the habbit of doing that are also very carefull to put the different titles in their right places, and hence I am not. Maybe silly, but sometimes I do silly things. As you may have noticed.

But I do agree with the point you are making. That rather than seeing Ellen as a fellow human and church member to whom God gave messages for our benefit, some in our church elevate her to a position that is inappropriate and incorrect.

[västergötland]

Go to the same cemetery with a high pressure power washer, however... if I can still deliver as much water as I want, I can take the letters off...



There is no indication they were written in granite either... the geology of the region says either sandstone or basalt are far more likely...

In His service,
Mr. J

If it was sandstone, you wont have to spend much time there with the high pressure power washer.