3abn Employees Not Getting Annual Raises?, Does anyone know more? Options

[Observer]

The average 3ABN employee barely scraps by each month, at the very best. They have no retiremant plan nor do they have the funds to paraticipate in an individual retirement plan. Observer, I know you mean well when you say you have no problem with the salaries of the top employees at 3ABN, in fact you believe they should receive more. But I have a problem with it. This is supposed to be a ministry and should not be judged by the same standards as corperate America. The inequality of wages at 3ABN is a slap in the face of honest ministries.

According to the USA department of labor, the mean annual wage for a television camera operator (2005) is $36,560., if it is cable or other subscription programming the mean annual wage raises to $44,670. Camera operators at 3ABN earn less than half of the former mean annual wage. Most 3ABN employees earn so little that they qualify for public assistance.

Observer, Danny is very fond of saying that 3ABN is a ministry and the employees need to sacrifice for the ministry in regard to their pay. Why is it that Danny and a select few of his cronies in management positions are not asked to make the same sacrifices? This is a ministry, right? Or is it like George Orwell's novel Animal Farm? All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than other animals... The Bible says a workman is worthy of his hire. It appears that Danny is not aquainted with that scripture, perhaps he is too busy in his role as a "prophet".

Sister, I have said very little about the compensation that is paid to the majority of the people who work and otherwise contribute to the ministry of 3-ABN. My silence has been becasue I do not have any way to verify what they are paid.l I can comment on the compensation paid to the people listed as those figures are found in the IRS 990s.

In my thinking, the Bible is very clear that the person who works in ministry should be paid a reasonable living wage. I believe that all should be paid that living wage regardless of any other financial considerations. If someone is otherwise independently wealthy, pay them a living wage. They can then, as led by the Lord, gift from their income however they are led to do so. In the society in which we live I think that it is morally imparative that 3-ABN provide those who work in its ministry benefits such as medical and retirement, in addition to a wage sufficient to live in the area where they live.

In my thinking, organizations who fail to do the above tend to develop in their employees a mind-set by which their employees attempt to find "off the books" so to speak, methods of supplementing their income. In my thinking the organized SDA chruch has faced that problem in some areas. I will suggest that some of the financial scandals the the SDA Church has faced have been due to it not paying its employees an appropriate wage. We have places where our clergy can not afford to live near the congregations that they pastor, and they may live 100 miles away. In such cases ministry suffers. In such cases the people involved may attempt to find other sources of income. The result is that abuse may occur.

Sister, thank you for correctly pointing out that I should have been more vocal in regard to the compensation paid to other 3-ABN employees. 3-ABN has a moral obligation to pay all of its employees a living wage with appropriate benefits. If it is not doing so, it is a moral failure on its part.

It is, in my thinking, a moral failure on the part of a ministry to pay its employees compensation that qualifies them for public aid. I cannot immagine a God that would approve of such.

[Shiny Penny]

ooops.

This post has been edited by Shiny Penny: Nov 3 2007, 02:12 PM

[Observer]

Sister said:

This is supposed to be a ministry and should not be judged by the same standards as corperate America. The inequality of wages at 3ABN is a slap in the face of honest ministries.

To be clear: I have not suggested that the standards of corporate America should govern the compensation of a religous organization. I have more accurately stated that employees should be paid a living wage and should not be paid at a rate that make them eligible for government welfare.

However, to expand on where I am: I do believe that the prevailing wage should be taken into consideration. While I do not say that it should be equal, I do believe that it should be considered.

In addition, I also believe that God loves voluntary offerings. People can contribure as much of their salery as they wish. A corporate officer of 3-ABN who recieves a salery of $70,000 has the choice of how much of that to give as offerings to God, and where--3-ABN or elsewhere according to the way that God leads.

A person who recieves a sub-standard salary that qualifies them for government welfare does not have the same opportunity to voluntarly give as God leads.

[Shiny Penny]

The average 3ABN employee barely scraps by each month, at the very best. They have no retiremant plan nor do they have the funds to paraticipate in an individual retirement plan. Observer, I know you mean well when you say you have no problem with the salaries of the top employees at 3ABN, in fact you believe they should receive more. But I have a problem with it. This is supposed to be a ministry and should not be judged by the same standards as corperate America. The inequality of wages at 3ABN is a slap in the face of honest ministries.

According to the USA department of labor, the mean annual wage for a television camera operator (2005) is $36,560., if it is cable or other subscription programming the mean annual wage raises to $44,670. Camera operators at 3ABN earn less than half of the former mean annual wage. Most 3ABN employees earn so little that they qualify for public assistance.

Observer, Danny is very fond of saying that 3ABN is a ministry and the employees need to sacrifice for the ministry in regard to their pay. Why is it that Danny and a select few of his cronies in management positions are not asked to make the same sacrifices? This is a ministry, right? Or is it like George Orwell's novel Animal Farm? All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than other animals... The Bible says a workman is worthy of his hire. It appears that Danny is not aquainted with that scripture, perhaps he is too busy in his role as a "prophet".

You bring up an issue that I believe the church, as an employer, has faced in the past. They paid everyone what some one had determined was a living wage. This meant that wives who worked for the church were paid little to nothing, because the sum total of what they got when considered in the context of the family income, was a living wage. The lower level employees made less than the high level employees, but not by much. The less experienced made less than the more experienced, but not by much. And so you had the situation where entry-level workers and janitors made more, perhaps considerably more working for the church than they would have working in the business-world. But the higher level employees making a considerably less compared to what they could have made outside. All were working for ministry.

Is Danny still saying that employees need to sacrifice? I doubt he would have said something such lately. But perhaps he did.

Also, as you quote average wages for camera operators, keep in mind that there are differences in pay depending on locale. I'm sure that a camera operator in NYC or LA will be earning more than a camera operator in West Frankfort or Thompsonville, because the cost of living in the sticks of Southern Illinois is much less than it is in the cities.

"Most" employees qualify for assistance? What do you mean by this? What is the basis for your making this statement? Have you seen the payroll records? Have you seen them recently? What is the level of income that puts you into public assistance in West Frankfort? I suppose that if someone is making $7 per hour they would qualify for public assisance, especially if they were trying to support a family on that. But I would guess that with few marketable skills, that person would be glad for a job anywhere, includng 3ABN or Walmart.

Your comments drip with malice and bitterness...but please keep in mind that, according to what I have read here on BSDA, before she left Linda was making more than Danny, so she, according to your words, must have been one of those "cronies" as well. And if you will - what did Linda do while she was working there to get employees off of public assistance and making a living wage?

I know everyone here thinks I am a supporter of Danny. I am a great supporter of 3ABN since it is getting the good news out to the whole world. What annoys me is the criticism of 3ABN in the guise of criticizing Danny, when Linda apparantly did little herself when she was there running the day to day operations, taking the highest salary herself and evidently keeping the little people on below sustenance wages.

(I am prepared for everyone to come after me for these comments, but I would especially welcome Sister's responses to my questions).

[Snoopy]

You bring up an issue that I believe the church, as an employer, has faced in the past. They paid everyone what some one had determined was a living wage. This meant that wives who worked for the church were paid little to nothing, because the sum total of what they got when considered in the context of the family income, was a living wage. The lower level employees made less than the high level employees, but not by much. The less experienced made less than the more experienced, but not by much. And so you had the situation where entry-level workers and janitors made more, perhaps considerably more working for the church than they would have working in the business-world. But the higher level employees making a considerably less compared to what they could have made outside. All were working for ministry.

Is Danny still saying that employees need to sacrifice? I doubt he would have said something such lately. But perhaps he did.

Also, as you quote average wages for camera operators, keep in mind that there are differences in pay depending on locale. I'm sure that a camera operator in NYC or LA will be earning more than a camera operator in West Frankfort or Thompsonville, because the cost of living in the sticks of Southern Illinois is much less than it is in the cities.

"Most" employees qualify for assistance? What do you mean by this? What is the basis for your making this statement? Have you seen the payroll records? Have you seen them recently? What is the level of income that puts you into public assistance in West Frankfort? I suppose that if someone is making $7 per hour they would qualify for public assisance, especially if they were trying to support a family on that. But I would guess that with few marketable skills, that person would be glad for a job anywhere, includng 3ABN or Walmart.

Your comments drip with malice and bitterness...but please keep in mind that, according to what I have read here on BSDA, before she left Linda was making more than Danny, so she, according to your words, must have been one of those "cronies" as well. And if you will - what did Linda do while she was working there to get employees off of public assistance and making a living wage?

I know everyone here thinks I am a supporter of Danny. I am a great supporter of 3ABN since it is getting the good news out to the whole world. What annoys me is the criticism of 3ABN in the guise of criticizing Danny, when Linda apparantly did little herself when she was there running the day to day operations, taking the highest salary herself and evidently keeping the little people on below sustenance wages.

(I am prepared for everyone to come after me for these comments, but I would especially welcome Sister's responses to my questions).

For whatever its worth, I think you raise some very valid and thought provoking points, Shiny Penny.

My issue with the 3ABN payscale is the shape of the bell curve, not the bell curve itself.

~~Snoopy~~

[Observer]

You bring up an issue that I believe the church, as an employer, has faced in the past. They paid everyone what some one had determined was a living wage. This meant that wives who worked for the church were paid little to nothing, because the sum total of what they got when considered in the context of the family income, was a living wage. The lower level employees made less than the high level employees, but not by much. The less experienced made less than the more experienced, but not by much. And so you had the situation where entry-level workers and janitors made more, perhaps considerably more working for the church than they would have working in the business-world. But the higher level employees making a considerably less compared to what they could have made outside. All were working for ministry.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Also, as you quote average wages for camera operators, keep in mind that there are differences in pay depending on locale. I'm sure that a camera operator in NYC or LA will be earning more than a camera operator in West Frankfort or Thompsonville, because the cost of living in the sticks of Southern Illinois is much less than it is in the cities.

SP: Your comments which I have extracted from a larger post are quite valid. I appreciate your points.

I would never suggest that women be paid less than males, I do not imply that you suggseted such. I simply make the point.

In addition, I agree that the SDA denomination in its history has had a real problem with this issue.

I will suggest that the denomination has long ago resolved some of the issues. I will also suggest that the credit for that resolution lies with Merikay (McLeod) Silver. The men and women of this denomination owe her a vote of thanks for what she accomplished.

[YogusBearus]

For whatever its worth, I think you raise some very valid and thought provoking points, Shiny Penny.

My issue with the 3ABN payscale is the shape of the bell curve, not the bell curve itself.

~~Snoopy~~

I agree Snoopy. The points are quite valid. I don't believe I've ever heard anything attributable to Linda Shelton that she regrets what sounds like sacrificial pay to employees during her tenure. I don't expect we'll ever hear Danny admitting there is a problem with this.

Do you think the Sheltons created a trap for themselves when they repeatedly emphazied that their salaries were on par with Adventist ministers?

-bear

[fallible humanbe...]

. . .

Also, as you quote average wages for camera operators, keep in mind that there are differences in pay depending on locale. I'm sure that a camera operator in NYC or LA will be earning more than a camera operator in West Frankfort or Thompsonville, because the cost of living in the sticks of Southern Illinois is much less than it is in the cities.

"Most" employees qualify for assistance? What do you mean by this? What is the basis for your making this statement? Have you seen the payroll records? Have you seen them recently? What is the level of income that puts you into public assistance in West Frankfort? I suppose that if someone is making $7 per hour they would qualify for public assisance, especially if they were trying to support a family on that. But I would guess that with few marketable skills, that person would be glad for a job anywhere, includng 3ABN or Walmart.

Your comments drip with malice and bitterness...but please keep in mind that, according to what I have read here on BSDA, before she left Linda was making more than Danny, so she, according to your words, must have been one of those "cronies" as well. And if you will - what did Linda do while she was working there to get employees off of public assistance and making a living wage?

I know everyone here thinks I am a supporter of Danny. I am a great supporter of 3ABN since it is getting the good news out to the whole world. What annoys me is the criticism of 3ABN in the guise of criticizing Danny, when Linda apparantly did little herself when she was there running the day to day operations, taking the highest salary herself and evidently keeping the little people on below sustenance wages.

(I am prepared for everyone to come after me for these comments, but I would especially welcome Sister's responses to my questions).

I will agree, as well, with the others that you have postulated some very salient points and you are to be lauded for bringing them out. I agree that there seems to be, at the least, an underlying malice within the comments (that of course will be denied) and that there is a very real possibility that some to many of the comments/attacks on Danny Shelton are more correctly directed at the more conservative theology that comes from 3ABN. That opinion being stated, on to points in your post.

Much has been made of Danny, his salary, his home, etc . . . most of the time, almost all of the time, ignoring the fact that most of what is being hammered at does in fact include Linda - as she was there during most of these issues. There is the standard hue and cry that she didn't know what was happening, she didn't have any knowledge of anything that was going on on the business side of the ministry, she was a poor misguided and naive innocent bystander. However, any reasonably thinking human would have to smirk at this and acknowledge that it is merely spin from Linda's team of PR representatives (GM, RP, GJ, et. al.) . . . Linda knew, she was far to involved not to know.

The most pertinent of your questions for "sister" is the one in regards to her knowledge of the financial situation of the employee's of 3ABN. I would add to that, has she visited with each and everyone of them, so as to be accurate when she says that "most" employees qualify for assistance. Now, the claim is made that there are some former employees (DC being the only one to identify himself so as to accurately make the connection) and "sister" may very well be one of them - but when? How long ago? In what capacity? If there has been a significant amount of time between now and her employment at 3ABN then what is she basing her claims on, we don't see any real substantiation other than her "say so" . . . It would be interesting if "sister" was able to supply the COL statistics for a variety of locales, as well as the actual remuneration to employees of 3ABN so that the readers here could see her substantiate her claims. 3ABN continues to be compared (from a business angle) with the regular work world and attacked - then there is a shift when attacking Danny and his salary to a ministry model mind . . . no consistency, apples and oranges . . .

Being a supporter of 3ABN does not make one automatically wrong, nor being an advocate of Linda make one right . . . What is the result of the work that 3ABN is doing? Are seekers being lead to the foot of the cross? Even within the 12 there was one disgruntled member, others who doubted, those who self-righteously sought the right hand of the Saviour . . . Have there ever been employees of a ministry or organized entity of our church who have attempted to bring it down because they felt slighted? Is she privy to their prior financial planning to being involved with 3ABN? How many are retirement age and on SS and this is supplemental that that income as well as previous retirement planning? She makes statements with no real substantial support.

I can't say if 3ABN doesn't pay "enough" for its employees, I can't disprove "sisters" claims . . . but then there is the fact she has nothing to support her claims . . . so whose right? God knows. It would also be very interesting to hear the testimony of those working for 3ABN and (outside of HOTY) to see how many feel they are being underpaid. I know many who work for the denomination who could make much more outside of it - using the same set of skills - and yet choose to stay within because of their commitment to the work they do for the Lord, the point being that there seems to be much "defending" of those who probably don't want it, going on here.

- FHB

This post has been edited by fallible humanbeing: Nov 3 2007, 08:04 PM

[Rosyroi]

This Rose is going to enter into this intereting discussion about salaries from my weakening memory.

Outside of their low salary church workers have medical, dental, eye, ear and RX insurance. Some ministries also offer rent compensation. Besides that there is a percentage financial assistance for the children to attend church school and if the children so desire there is also some compensation for college assistance. At least that is what I remember from the ministry I am discussing.

When workers move from place to place there is help there also so there is no major financial burden moving from one church to another or from one conference to another.

I don't remember what else there is but after retirement they get what one person calls a pension. Along with the pension there is a good Medical, Dental, Eye, Ear, RX insurance that the retiree does pay for that helps immensly.

I don't see 3ABN/Danny Shelton doing anything close to that for his non-admin employees.

It is possible that I may have erred in some points. Feel free to add or subtract.

JMHO

[princessdi]

Long time no see FHB!

I for one, am not ignoring the fact that Linda was probably part of or at the very least benefitted from perks, some injustices, and wrong doing which occurred at 3ABN during her tenure. However, the problem is that Danny wanted to be the only one talking. He had her sign an gag order that stated that she was not to make any comments regarding 3ABN or it's officers( right?). Whether or not it is still in effect. I believe Linda to be wise in her decision to "remain" silent through all of this. I mean it has gotten so bad, that Danny con no longer play front man. So now, you all want somebody to talk with her, ask her some questions..... I think not. Danny wanted to be the only one talking and he talked her reputation into the ground with groundless accusations of "spiritual adultery".....he can just keep on being the only one talking himself out of this mess.....or not. I believe it is unrealistic of him to think that Linda will now be a "sport" and begin talk to help eleviate some of the pressure for him, and start giving reasonable explanations for those question and allegations. This is the path that satan leads us down when we do such things.

Then there is the fact that this is inconsistent what is being put forth by other of Danny supporters, who say that Linda was not cofounder. In fact she was little more than a secretary. She didn't do that much and she didn't do her job that well. So basically they were doing her a favor by paying her 250K to get lost. How is somebody who is supposed to be have done next to nothing supposed to answer for anything?According to you all Danny IS the Founder, once again, the buck stops with him......he alone is answerable.......as he considers he alone was the one and only founder. He can't hold the "help" accountable. So as you see your attempts to defer blame to Linda can't work a at least two levels.

I also want to say that I don't know what kind of theology comes out of 3ABN. It is not geared to my demographic, and it doesn't appeal to me on any level, as planned by 3ABN. I have no problem with this as I don't everything in this world to revolve around me. Now, I said that to say that my comments have nothing to do with theology but ethics and the accuracy of Danny's own claims and statements. I have enothing else on which to base them.

Now, I will say this, I do a rather different stance on salaries. While I am not upset about Danny's salary)or really any perks he may received at 3ABN, not even the plane. I am not drinking from that particular cup of haterade), I am more than concerened at him receiving his salary and perks when his employees are expewcted to "sacrifice" for the good of the ministry. Once again, the "leader in christian living" is failing to live up to his claims.

I will agree, as well, with the others that you have postulated some very salient points and you are to be lauded for bringing them out. I agree that there seems to be, at the least, an underlying malice within the comments (that of course will be denied) and that there is a very real possibility that some to many of the comments/attacks on Danny Shelton are more correctly directed at the more conservative theology that comes from 3ABN. That opinion being stated, on to points in your post.

Much has been made of Danny, his salary, his home, etc . . . most of the time, almost all of the time, ignoring the fact that most of what is being hammered at does in fact include Linda - as she was there during most of these issues. There is the standard hue and cry that she didn't know what was happening, she didn't have any knowledge of anything that was going on on the business side of the ministry, she was a poor misguided and naive innocent bystander. However, any reasonably thinking human would have to smirk at this and acknowledge that it is merely spin from Linda's team of PR representatives (GM, RP, GJ, et. al.) . . . Linda knew, she was far to involved not to know.

The most pertinent of your questions for "sister" is the one in regards to her knowledge of the financial situation of the employee's of 3ABN. I would add to that, has she visited with each and everyone of them, so as to be accurate when she says that "most" employees qualify for assistance. Now, the claim is made that there are some former employees (DC being the only one to identify himself so as to accurately make the connection) and "sister" may very well be one of them - but when? How long ago? In what capacity? If there has been a significant amount of time between now and her employment at 3ABN then what is she basing her claims on, we don't see any real substantiation other than her "say so" . . . It would be interesting if "sister" was able to supply the COL statistics for a variety of locales, as well as the actual remuneration to employees of 3ABN so that the readers here could see her substantiate her claims. 3ABN continues to be compared (from a business angle) with the regular work world and attacked - then there is a shift when attacking Danny and his salary to a ministry model mind . . . no consistency, apples and oranges . . .

Being a supporter of 3ABN does not make one automatically wrong, nor being an advocate of Linda make one right . . . What is the result of the work that 3ABN is doing? Are seekers being lead to the foot of the cross? Even within the 12 there was one disgruntled member, others who doubted, those who self-righteously sought the right hand of the Saviour . . . Have there ever been employees of a ministry or organized entity of our church who have attempted to bring it down because they felt slighted?

I can't say if 3ABN doesn't pay "enough" for its employees, I can't disprove "sisters" claims . . . but then there is the fact she has nothing to support her claims . . . so whose right? God knows. It would also be very interesting to hear the testimony of those working for 3ABN and (outside of HOTY) to see how many feel they are being underpaid. I know many who work for the denomination who could make much more outside of it - using the same set of skills - and yet choose to stay within because of their commitment to the work they do for the Lord, the point being that there seems to be much "defending" of those who probably don't want it, going on here.

- FHB

[Snoopy]

I agree Snoopy. The points are quite valid. I don't believe I've ever heard anything attributable to Linda Shelton that she regrets what sounds like sacrificial pay to employees during her tenure. I don't expect we'll ever hear Danny admitting there is a problem with this.

Do you think the Sheltons created a trap for themselves when they repeatedly emphazied that their salaries were on par with Adventist ministers?

-bear

I guess that depends on whether they meant just their salaries or their salaries plus unrecorded benefits...

~~Snoopy~~

[Panama_Pete]

Much has been made of Danny, his salary, his home, etc . . . most of the time, almost all of the time, ignoring the fact that most of what is being hammered at does in fact include Linda - as she was there during most of these issues. There is the standard hue and cry that she didn't know what was happening, she didn't have any knowledge of anything that was going on on the business side of the ministry, she was a poor misguided and naive innocent bystander. However, any reasonably thinking human would have to smirk at this and acknowledge that it is merely spin from Linda's team of PR representatives (GM, RP, GJ, et. al.) . . . Linda knew, she was far to involved not to know.

- FHB

Forget about Linda Shelton. What did the actual board know? Or, is this position predicated on the assumption that the board of directors had no knowledge and was outside the sphere of influence?

[4reneyonly]

he check is in the mail...Really. Honest

[Shiny Penny]

Rosyroi - I believe that 3ABN offers health - medical, dental, eye, ear, RX, toe, liver and fingernail - insurance.

The church does provide a moving allowance, but this would be for pastors and appointed conference officials etc. I do not think that the church is paying moving allowance for the secretaries, receptionists, janitors etc. If I am wrong, someone will kindly correct me. And on a side note, let me tell you, no matter how much assistance you get, moving is a major financial burden. The movers will bang up your furniture, break stuff (I know there is insurance, but not everything can be replaced or restored), your old curtains will not exactly fit the new place and I could go on and on.

Retirement benefits (in the traditional sense) have pretty much gone out the window at many, if not most companies or organizations. Used to be you worked and when you retired the retirement fund paid you until you died. Nowadays, the risk is on you, you contribute to the retirement plan, and hope and pray you die or Jesus comes before it runs out. The church is on a contributary plan, with the church contributing some small percent of the worker's salary (like 1%) to the plan regardless of whether the worker contributes and then matching some percentage (Unfortunately, I don't know the exact amounts, but I heard it is something like up to 2.5%).

All I have heard is that 3ABN does not offer a retirement plan to anyone, other than making the employer's contributions to social security. Does anyone else know differently?

This Rose is going to enter into this intereting discussion about salaries from my weakening memory.

Outside of their low salary church workers have medical, dental, eye, ear and RX insurance. Some ministries also offer rent compensation. Besides that there is a percentage financial assistance for the children to attend church school and if the children so desire there is also some compensation for college assistance. At least that is what I remember from the ministry I am discussing.

When workers move from place to place there is help there also so there is no major financial burden moving from one church to another or from one conference to another.

I don't remember what else there is but after retirement they get what one person calls a pension. Along with the pension there is a good Medical, Dental, Eye, Ear, RX insurance that the retiree does pay for that helps immensly.

I don't see 3ABN/Danny Shelton doing anything close to that for his non-admin employees.

It is possible that I may have erred in some points. Feel free to add or subtract.

JMHO

[Observer]

Rosyroi - I believe that 3ABN offers health - medical, dental, eye, ear, RX, toe, liver and fingernail - insurance.

The church does provide a moving allowance, but this would be for pastors and appointed conference officials etc. I do not think that the church is paying moving allowance for the secretaries, receptionists, janitors etc. If I am wrong, someone will kindly correct me. And on a side note, let me tell you, no matter how much assistance you get, moving is a major financial burden. The movers will bang up your furniture, break stuff (I know there is insurance, but not everything can be replaced or restored), your old curtains will not exactly fit the new place and I could go on and on.

Retirement benefits (in the traditional sense) have pretty much gone out the window at many, if not most companies or organizations. Used to be you worked and when you retired the retirement fund paid you until you died. Nowadays, the risk is on you, you contribute to the retirement plan, and hope and pray you die or Jesus comes before it runs out. The church is on a contributary plan, with the church contributing some small percent of the worker's salary (like 1%) to the plan regardless of whether the worker contributes and then matching some percentage (Unfortunately, I don't know the exact amounts, but I heard it is something like up to 2.5%).

All I have heard is that 3ABN does not offer a retirement plan to anyone, other than making the employer's contributions to social security. Does anyone else know differently?

Medical: The denomination, in my opinion, generally offers as good (or better) a medical plan as is offered in U.S. society. Some individual aspects may exceed other plans. The medical care that my family and I recieve is a Federal plan. In some individual aspects the denominational plan is better. Yet, I have what I consider to be a very good plan.

Retirement: Seccular U.S. society is moving from a defined benefit plan to a defined contribution plan. This frightens some denominational employeees due to the responsibility that such places upon them to invest wisely. Personally, I think that this is the only prudent fiscal choice for the denomination. The problem with the denominational plan is that for many years, while a defined benefit plan, it was severely underefunded, due to a number of complex reasons. As a result, denominational institutions today are required to make up the short-fall due to this underfunding, and the obligations that the retirement fund currently has. This requires a major invgestment that is being used to make right the mistakes of the past, and not for the present workforce. The complexity of this issues is such that several of the so-called regional conferences have opted out of the standard denominational retirement program and fund a seperate program commercially. NOTE: They were allowed to opt-out due to a beleif that they were required to pay more than their fair share of the underfunding.

Moving expenses: Denominational emploeyees other than clergy are moved at denominational expense. For example, teachers are so moved. Most denominational employees are required to self-pack, whereas in our society such would often be paid by the organization. The problem is that many who work for the denomination are not considered to be denominational employees. As such they typically have no benefits at all.

This post has been edited by Observer: Nov 4 2007, 10:48 AM