How Much Of Concern About 3abn Is Motivated By Liberalism?, Neutralizing one of Danny's alibis Options

[Ian]

Well that's the last straw. How can anyone support a man lifting his hand toward heaven while the music goes on.

-bear

[Ian]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. The pastor I referred to is concerned about 3ABN regardless. He isn't swayed one bit by such. But he still is concerned about the attacks against Adventist beliefs and the gift of prophecy that are made here, thinks some of the folks posting here aren't really Adventists even when they claim to be, and thinks that some of the motivation for the concern on the part of some about 3ABN is coming from that direction.

And it's my concern that the attacks against core Adventist beliefs and standards that are made here can hinder resolution by making some folks out there think that they have to choose between truth/3ABN and falsehood/Shelton gone, even though both the pastor I referred to and myself believe there can be no compromise with corruption at 3ABN, regardless of what the consequences might appear to be.

That most of 3ABN's critics and accusers are liberals is, I believe, a view and concern held by many; at least all those I have talked to, and who have approached me. And although I wouldn't call you a liberal, going by posts here and elsewhere, I believe it is one that fits many of the posters who are critical of 3ABN.

I don't really like the terms Liberal, or conservative, as they smack of trying to put people in boxes, and some don't fit either one or the other entirely, I'm one of those. My beliefs are conservative my view of others liberal. I use them for lack of better terms. Those who espouse a New theology vs those who uphold the Foundational beliefs maybe a better way of distinguishing between the groups in Adventism today??

There are a lot of people out there who come across a question or a doubt or a problem, and then they search for an answer after assuming that the position we have held is wrong. That is not approaching the matter in an attiude of faith, in my opinion, and that is specifically what I was referring to.

I contend that we must first search diligently for an answer that supports our position before looking for something else. The reality of the human mind is that we see what we are looking for, and not necessarily much else. And so if we don't look for answers that support our positions, we risk arriving at an erroneous conclusion unnecessarily.

If we look for what we already believe we are using our thoughts and feelings as a standard, and will only find what we seek, to confirm our own postition. That can be dangerous.

For Satan said "ye shall be as gods knowing good from evil"and implying right from wrong. That kind of thing can lead to us becoming our own god, and forming God in our image rather then the other way around.

We were bluntly warned by our Creator that the fallen human heart is desparately wicked and that our thoughts and ways are not his, and his are so very much higher.

He follows that up with a invitation.

"come, let us reason together..."

We need to heed that, as it relates to the Laodicean problem,, where we may think we have all, and need nothing, but are actually in a very sad condition.

I agree that we shouldn't assume previous held positions are wrong, but neither should we assume we are correct and cannot be in error.

We need to be between the two extremes, for both are a ditch to either side of that narrow path. I believe that when doubts and questions arise, we need to have a open heart and mind and a teachable spirit and ask the Lord to lead in resolving doubts and supplying answers and study God's word humbly and prayerfully, and allow him to answer.

If people disagree to begin with? well, so what! If both can respectfully study and pray together and seek God's truth rather then seeking to prove themselves right and another wrong, I think the Lord will lead them both in the right direction.

Pride, involving self righteousness and self justification, is one of the hardest things to overcome.

We need to lose self.

My two bit piece.


edited content to add more explanation and fix punctuation, as there were no replies to the thread yet.

This post has been edited by Ian: Nov 14 2007, 06:46 PM

[Pickle]

Bob~

My initial response to your response to YB's post was, huh? So I read your post several times before responding.

I understand YB's post to be about respectful dialogue between the differing viewpoints and that maybe AT can stimulate that with the recent change of editor. Your response seems primarily about whether any dialogue would be meaningful unless all were agreed on certain foundational premises. Are you suggesting that it is impossible for the different viewpoints to dialogue in a respectful way because the positions held are so hardened that nothing of value would come from the discussion?

nw

Not at all. I was just expressing in a different way what one of our college professors told a group of ministers in 1989.

Respectful dialog is important. And it can be fruitful and create less heat if we recognize that sometimes we have to look at foundational premises before we look at various issues that are built on that premise.

Ken Hamm wrote a book that covers that issue too, but from a non-Adventist perspective, regarding various hot-button topics. He called for discussing what he considered to be the foundational premises before looking at the hot-button topics.

[Pickle]

That most of 3ABN's critics and accusers are liberals is, I believe, a view and concern held by many, ...

Thanks to Danny's spin, perhaps?

We need to heed that, as that is a Laodician problem,, where we may think we have all, and need nothing, but are actually in a very sad condition.

Perhaps this is the major problem.

[princessdi]

But do/did you see Danny doing that on 3ABN? Is that the praise and worship style that Danny normally exhibits. Believe me, 3ABN's music is super conservative.

I'll ask something that has almost nagged me before. It seems that I recall that in 1984 at his concert in Slidell, LA, or perhaps he told our pastor sometime, or somehow I recall that he was claiming that a conference president out east had thought his music was of Satan.

Is his music different now than then? Or is contemporary music now different than it was then?

I recall Danny under Oscar Lane's big red tent lifting one hand toward heaven with a mike in the other, there in New Orleans in 1984 as the music went on.

[princessdi]

Okee dokee Bob, then, this train of thought is not worth your time. It still makes no difference whatsoever who is asking the questions. Sin is sin, does it make a difference who calls it? Those who cling to this train of thought are just grasping at yet one more straw to excuse the wrong doings by Danny and the 3ABN board. I admit to being liberal, and kicking your wife of 20 years to the curb for Gidget is yet and still as wrong as it was when this mess started. Lying on your now ex wife and trashing her reputation to cover your own mess makes it even worse. Before you Danny supporters get excited, once again, I call as I see them. This is what the facts as they exist now say to me. If you want to change my thinking add some facts, something other than some thus far non existent proof about trips and phone calls.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. The pastor I referred to is concerned about 3ABN regardless. He isn't swayed one bit by such. But he still is concerned about the attacks against Adventist beliefs and the gift of prophecy that are made here, thinks some of the folks posting here aren't really Adventists even when they claim to be, and thinks that some of the motivation for the concern on the part of some about 3ABN is coming from that direction.

And it's my concern that the attacks against core Adventist beliefs and standards that are made here can hinder resolution by making some folks out there think that they have to choose between truth/3ABN and falsehood/Shelton gone, even though both the pastor I referred to and myself believe there can be no compromise with corruption at 3ABN, regardless of what the consequences might appear to be.

How often we face this same kind of thing in society: people vote Democrat even though some things are right, lest they lose something they hold dear, while others vote Republican even though some things are right, lest they lose something they hold dear. (Hope that was a safe analogy. If not, disregard.)

[Johann]

My beliefs are conservative my view of others liberal. I use them for lack of better terms.


He follows that up with a invitation.

"come, let us reason together..."

If your evaluation of yourself is correct, then we are on the same wavelength. It may also surprise you that my friend, Dr. Arild Abrahamsen,, is also like you in that respect. But does that mean we must agree to all the falsehood that has been presented to cover up what really happened? I am by nature very liberal in my ways of looking at others. But when I see some people vilifying and projecting their own evil on the innocent, like I have experienced myself in this case, I cannot exonerate the guilty. Then I would be one with the guilty, and that does not hold in the final judgment. Just stating that the guilty is doing a great work for the Lord is no excuse for evil.

Let us rather reason together and ask for cleansing.

You will notice that I have always used my real name in these discussions, because I believe truth has nothing to hide.

I have not participated in the discussions on financial matters nor the accusations against Tommy, because I want to limit what I say to what I have seen and observed.

This post has been edited by Johann: Nov 14 2007, 10:47 PM

[Pickle]

But do/did you see Danny doing that on 3ABN? Is that the praise and worship style that Danny normally exhibits. Believe me, 3ABN's music is super conservative.

My apologies for not being more clear.

Others have accused Danny of doing certain things just to cater to his particular supporters. Is that true for his music?

It has been said that his music is conservative. And yet I recall the statement that a church leader out east thought his music was of the devil.

Either his music has changed or what is considered of the devil has changed. Which is it? I don't know.

Anyone have cassettes of his music from the first half of the 1980's? I'd be interested in comparing it with now to see if there is a difference.

[Pickle]

Sin is sin, does it make a difference who calls it?

Not at all. The Bible story of the death of Josiah proves that.

I admit to being liberal, and kicking your wife of 20 years to the curb for Gidget is yet and still as wrong as it was when this mess started. Lying on your now ex wife and trashing her reputation to cover your own mess makes it even worse. Before you Danny supporters get excited, once again, I call as I see them. This is what the facts as they exist now say to me. If you want to change my thinking add some facts, something other than some thus far non existent proof about trips and phone calls.

I am glad that we agree on so many points, and that you are so strait-laced and conservative in matters of basic Christian conduct and decency. May the Lord bless you for your courageous stand.

(Hope that was an alright way to express my appreciation.)

[Ian]

Thanks to Danny's spin, perhaps?

No.

It might suit your purpose or bolster your position to claim that. but many who have e-mailed me or talked to me, don't even watch 3ABN, (3ABN is only available via the internet in my area) or know who Danny Shelton is, except that he is a Seventh-day Adventist who has a ministry and broadcastiing network, until they come across all this junk on the internet. I myself have read here and elsewhere posters claiming they became acquainted with 3ABN and Danny Shelton and all this mess only because of the internet forums.

SDA's see that those attacking or criticizing 3ABN are in the majority also attacking and being critical of SDA foundational beliefs, and doctrines, and even Ellen white and that rightly concerns them, just as the Pastor you referred to was concerned, although himself being concerned about 3ABN issues and finding fault with them.

This impression is given by the critics of 3ABN themselves, by their own posts and words. That is how I myself formed my own opinion and views here.

Non-SDA, and Ex-SDA critics and attackers just join right in as this the kind of thing they like.. and excel at, proved by every SDA group and forum you find them in.

Princess Di was honest enough to identify herself as a SDA liberal and give her point of view re 3ABN issues , which we all know you agree with, and then you tried to repaint her as a SDA conservative in your reply.

I don't think that kind of thing is helpful in this discussion, or honest.

Perhaps this is the major problem. (Laodiceia and the problem of justifying self)

Yes.

This post has been edited by Ian: Nov 17 2007, 04:47 AM

[Pickle]

So Ian, if you think that the major problem is Laodicea and the justifying self, does that mean that you think that lukewarmness reigns at 3ABN, and that if Danny Shelton wasn't so bent on justifying himself instead of making things right, there really wouldn't be a problem?

I suggest you back up your claim about how most Adventists feel by giving us some real numbers. What percentage of Adventists are concerned? What percentage are not? How many did you survey? Was the survey random? Did you sample differing localities, genders, economic strata, and the like?

My understanding is that the new theology teaches that behavior does not affect our standing with God. Now if PrincessDi believes that child molestation, unbiblical divorce, and deceit can possibly affect our salvation in some way if we do not repent, and if you do not, I would say that she is the conservative on these points, and you are the liberal.

One has to wonder what theological positions would lead a person to take one or the other of these two positions on these particular points.

There is another possibility. We should remember the Phariseeism of Jesus' day. The Pharisees set up a woman, let the guy who was their accomplice go free, dragged only her, in blatant violation of the Mosaic code, to Jesus, asked Jesus whether she should be stoned, and then stole away after seeing that Jesus knew the dark secrets of their hypocrisy.

It would be unusual to call the Pharisees of that story liberals. So maybe it is out of place to suggest that Pharisees of today are liberal, if we do indeed have Pharisees today who strain out gnats from their drinking water but who readily chow down on camels.

[Johann]

No.

It might suit your purpose or bolster your position to claim that. but many who have e-mailed me or talked to me, don't even watch 3ABN, (3ABN is only available via the internet in my area) or know who Danny Shelton is, except that he is a Seventh-day Adventist who has a ministry and broadcastiing network, until they come across all this junk on the internet. I myself have read here and elsewhere posters claiming they became acquainted with 3ABN and Danny Shelton and all this mess only because of the internet forums.

SDA's see that those attacking or criticizing 3ABN are in the majority also attacking and being critical of SDA foundational beliefs, and doctrines, and even Ellen white and that rightly concerns them, just as the Pastor you referred to was concerned, although himself being concerned about 3ABN issues and finding fault with them.

This impression is given by the critics of 3ABN themselves, by their own posts and words. That is how I myself formed my own opinion and views here.

Non-SDA, and Ex-SDA critics and attackers just join right in as this the kind of thing they like.. and excel at, proved by every SDA group and forum you find them in.

Princess Di was honest enough to identify herself as a SDA liberal and give her point of view re 3ABN issues , which we all know you agree with, and then you tried to repaint her as a SDA conservative in your reply.

I don't think that kind of thing is helpful in this discussion, or honest.
Yes.

Are you stating here that your main concern is the method by which 3ABN is being exposed rather than the need for clearing up immoral conducts at 3ABN?

[SoulEspresso]

General comment on this thread:

Liberal or conservative, do we believe that the Ten Commandments are binding?

If we think a church leader who is admired by thousands is breaking some of them, shouldn't we speak out?

[Clay]

General comment on this thread:

Liberal or conservative, do we believe that the Ten Commandments are binding?

If we think a church leader who is admired by thousands is breaking some of them, shouldn't we speak out?

sure but start with telling on yourself FIRST..... isn't that what the bible recommends? That whole before picking out what's in your brother's eye, deal with whats in yours first.... so sure, speak out, but start at home....

[PeacefulBe]

sure but start with telling on yourself FIRST..... isn't that what the bible recommends? That whole before picking out what's in your brother's eye, deal with whats in yours first.... so sure, speak out, but start at home....

Clay, your response to SE brought several thoughts to mind. Should those of us who have not yet attained perfection sit in silence when we see evidence of destructive behavior in others? Isn't motivation the determining factor in that log and toothpick counsel? If we are calling attention to the condition of others in order to deflect attention from the mess in our own selves, then we best just hush. On the other hand, if we hush when we see evidence of sin that is hurting others but don't call it out because we are also struggling with imperfection in our own lives, aren't we helping the sinful behavior to flourish?