Message To The Readers Options

[Clay]

Following the son.... follow him then.... love mercy and DO JUSTICE..... if we were to follow your formula then alot injustice would persist.... I can almost hear some people saying during slavery, "yes its bad, but God will handle it...." Or while the church leadership deliberately chose to segregate the church by color, people saying, " no its not right but God will take care of it....." This happened in the late 1920s and 30s and again in the 1940s and it has not been "fixed" yet...

Here is a passage from Amos that may be applicable.....

Amos 5:21-24
"I can't stand your religious meetings.
I'm fed up with your conferences and conventions.
I want nothing to do with your religion projects,
your pretentious slogans and goals.
I'm sick of your fund-raising schemes,
your public relations and image making.
I've had all I can take of your noisy ego-music.
When was the last time you sang to me?
Do you know what I want?
I want justice—oceans of it.
I want fairness—rivers of it.
That's what I want. That's all I want.

God wants justice and fairness.....and if in speaking out there is some fairness gained, then the desires of God have been met...

This post has been edited by Clay: Aug 26 2006, 04:34 PM

[watchbird]

Following the son.... follow him then.... love mercy and DO JUSTICE..... if we were to follow your formula then alot injustice would persist.... I can almost hear some people saying during slavery, "yes its bad, but God will handle it...." Or while the church leadership deliberately chose to segregate the church by color, people saying, " no its not right but God will take care of it....." This happened in the late 1920s and 30s and again in the 1940s and it has not been "fixed" yet...

Here is a passage from Amos that may be applicable.....


God wants justice and fairness.....and if in speaking out there is some fairness gained, then the desires of God have been met...

Ah, but if one is guilty........ then justice is the thing one abhors the most...... and flees from the fastest......

[Brother Sam]

I hear and read the "do gooders" spouting their mumbo jumbo regarding the "fact" that "God will take care of it"... yet, if somebody attacks them or their family, they get all exciting and want action on their behalf. God works through people, he does not send down lightening to strike out evil or directly punish the evil doers. People get sick, not just because of their sin, but due to other factors...if God is suppose to take care of everything, he would not have given any of us a brain - we would not have any laws or the law enforcement/prison system for the wrong does. Is not the law enforcement system based on laws given by God to Moses, via the 10 Commandments, which appear in many places all across this nation? If "God will take care of it", we would not need any laws - everyone could do as they pleased and according to their own rules - we have rules about how non-profts are to be run, and so called "christians" have an even more strict standard they should abide by so that the funds that God blesses them with is used in the most prudent manner. When we see something that is not right, we should say something, otherwise we become accessories to the wrong doing.

[princessdi]

Clay, I often think of this when people say things like that. In fact, FollowingtheSon, has not been following along with the this thread very well, or else they would know that sever before them have already stated that they were going to take the " let go and let God route on this one. I have come to the understnading that this maybe their lot, to sit back and pray. This kind of fight does take courage and perserverance, many have no stomach for either. It takes a lot to go against all who seem right, especially if they are in leadership, church leadership As in the examples you gave, there were "christian-church-going" people who used Bible texts to justify the attrocities inflicted upon blacks in this country since slavery. They would go to church each and every Sunday/Saturday, serve as pastors, elders deacons, and attend their kaln meetings, cross burnings, and lynchings just as religiously. It seemed right even biblical to them, but some knew it was wrong all along.

Following the son.... follow him then.... love mercy and DO JUSTICE..... if we were to follow your formula then alot injustice would persist.... I can almost hear some people saying during slavery, "yes its bad, but God will handle it...." Or while the church leadership deliberately chose to segregate the church by color, people saying, " no its not right but God will take care of it....." This happened in the late 1920s and 30s and again in the 1940s and it has not been "fixed" yet...

Here is a passage from Amos that may be applicable.....


God wants justice and fairness.....and if in speaking out there is some fairness gained, then the desires of God have been met...

[Expression]

People use the Bible in many different ways and come up with many different conclusions. You can play the gossip card, or the justice card, or something in-between. But I have a question--what about principle? What about doing the right thing because it is the right thing?

Deep down don’t we know that we are to protect and defend those who cannot protect themselves? Do we not believe in accountability?

FollowingtheSon, if we put your “suggestions” into practice we would have to do away with conscience. You are asking us to surrender our God-given right to think, to ask questions, to appeal for answers. This cannot be done.

Professed Christianity can be extremely manipulative at times. Guilt is often employed to accomplish a certain end. But BSDA is a forum composed of many thinking individuals--people that will not simply buy the popular idea.

Our church professes to love the truth, but do we really? Perhaps we do when it comes to proving the Seventh-day Sabbath. Perhaps we do when we’re talking about the three angel’s messages. But when we come to the place where the rubber meets the road do we really want to know the truth? When it comes to more than what we say to actually how we live, does truth still matter to the Seventh-day Adventist church? Truth can be very painful at times, it isn’t always easy to swallow. But in the long run which is better? How long do we want to live a lie?

[princessdi]

Well said!!!!

People use the Bible in many different ways and come up with many different conclusions. You can play the gossip card, or the justice card, or something in-between. But I have a question--what about principle? What about doing the right thing because it is the right thing?

Deep down don’t we know that we are to protect and defend those who cannot protect themselves? Do we not believe in accountability?

FollowingtheSon, if we put your “suggestions” into practice we would have to do away with conscience. You are asking us to surrender our God-given right to think, to ask questions, to appeal for answers. This cannot be done.

Professed Christianity can be extremely manipulative at times. Guilt is often employed to accomplish a certain end. But BSDA is a forum composed of many thinking individuals--people that will not simply buy the popular idea.

Our church professes to love the truth, but do we really? Perhaps we do when it comes to proving the Seventh-day Sabbath. Perhaps we do when we’re talking about the three angel’s messages. But when we come to the place where the rubber meets the road do we really want to know the truth? When it comes to more than what we say to actually how we live, does truth still matter to the Seventh-day Adventist church? Truth can be very painful at times, it isn’t always easy to swallow. But in the long run which is better? How long do we want to live a lie?

[Clay]

It is official. This site has become infected with a grievous disease. What a pity.

I think your assessment is a bit premature.... thus your pity is unwarranted.... and what official might you be that you can announce "its official?"

[Ralph]

I stand in a unique position of having had my life turned upside down by the actions of the 3ABN administration....

Would you care to explain how the actions of the 3ABN board have turned your life upside down?

[PrincessDrRe]

..... When you ask for the posts to be deleted, it is actually censorship that you are asking for, couched in a sprinkling of Bible verses here and there to make censorship look religious when it is not.

Whoa!

Deep.... fa real!

[sonshineonme]

Would you care to explain how the actions of the 3ABN board have turned your life upside down?

I too would like to know - I think this person needs the healing that many need that have experienced the dysfunction that goes on behind the scenes. My hope is the this person, who ever he/she is, if he/she is really telling the truth, will find that this is a good place to get that freedom and heal - because there are many others here that can relate and can support him/her. As we often see, people (such as FTS) have to work thru it to see that it's "OK" to take the next step and proclaim "that is not ok, this is not ok, and I am not going to allow myself to stay in this place anymore, I have choices, and I am worthy". Lets see if that growth takes place for FTS, and "others" in the same boat. FTS, you will find support here. No fear brother/sister!

Following the son.... follow him then.... love mercy and DO JUSTICE..... if we were to follow your formula then alot injustice would persist.... I can almost hear some people saying during slavery, "yes its bad, but God will handle it...." Or while the church leadership deliberately chose to segregate the church by color, people saying, " no its not right but God will take care of it....." This happened in the late 1920s and 30s and again in the 1940s and it has not been "fixed" yet...

Here is a passage from Amos that may be applicable.....


God wants justice and fairness.....and if in speaking out there is some fairness gained, then the desires of God have been met...

I loved this Clay - thank you for posting it!!!
I had read this a long while ago, and am glad to have it again! So fitting and timely.

Amos 5:21-24
"I can't stand your religious meetings.
I'm fed up with your conferences and conventions.
I want nothing to do with your religion projects,
your pretentious slogans and goals.
I'm sick of your fund-raising schemes,
your public relations and image making.
I've had all I can take of your noisy ego-music.
When was the last time you sang to me?
Do you know what I want?
I want justice—oceans of it.
I want fairness—rivers of it.
That's what I want. That's all I want.

[Chez]

People use the Bible in many different ways and come up with many different conclusions. You can play the gossip card, or the justice card, or something in-between. But I have a question--what about principle? What about doing the right thing because it is the right thing?

Deep down don’t we know that we are to protect and defend those who cannot protect themselves? Do we not believe in accountability?

FollowingtheSon, if we put your “suggestions” into practice we would have to do away with conscience. You are asking us to surrender our God-given right to think, to ask questions, to appeal for answers. This cannot be done.

Professed Christianity can be extremely manipulative at times. Guilt is often employed to accomplish a certain end. But BSDA is a forum composed of many thinking individuals--people that will not simply buy the popular idea.

Our church professes to love the truth, but do we really? Perhaps we do when it comes to proving the Seventh-day Sabbath. Perhaps we do when we’re talking about the three angel’s messages. But when we come to the place where the rubber meets the road do we really want to know the truth? When it comes to more than what we say to actually how we live, does truth still matter to the Seventh-day Adventist church? Truth can be very painful at times, it isn’t always easy to swallow. But in the long run which is better? How long do we want to live a lie?

Good point. If we are to sit back and do nothing (as suggested by FollowingtheSon), then we should ignore the great commission. We should be like those in the story of the Good Samaritan--look but don't act. In fact these people were condemned by Jesus. They could have said, "I'm going to pray and let God fix the problem." Jesus praised the Good Samaritan for being a man of action, who partnered with God to fix the problem. Jesus stated that the Good Samaritan exemplified a good neighbor, a good follower of Christ.

If we were to follow your suggestion, FollowingtheSon, we wouldn't be following the Son of God, but the sons of man. Yes, we pray and ask God for guidance of if, how, and when we should act; nevertheless, we don't run and hide and we don't leave a wounded soldier on the battlefield to die. We have a responsibility to each other. We are here to glorify God and to serve others. To stand by and see injustice(s) occuring, we unwittingly affirm them. Christian people are people of action. The Seventh-day Adventist Church is a movement! We are not going to stand by and let a gang of bullies misrepresent who God really is and bully those who stand for truth. It is totally unacceptable.

[husbandoftheyear]

But I have a question--what about principle? What about doing the right thing because it is the right thing?

What exactly is the right thing?

For some it is to speak up. For other it is to let God work.

I believe in both implementations, and I believe that both are being employed in this situation.

Don't ever forget that right and wrong, aside from being an age-old conflict) is nothing more than perception.

[Expression]

Don't ever forget that right and wrong, aside from being an age-old conflict) is nothing more than perception.

In other words there is not such a thing as absolutes? Is right and wrong simply based on our opinions, our perceptions, our feelings??

I simply cannot agree with this. In reality there are principles involved that are unchangable regardless of our perception of them.

I agree that there are different ways to do the right thing, but it only goes so far. Ignoring abuse and injustice simply does not fit into that category. Phrases such as "Let go and let God" simply do not apply here.

I honestly belive that many in "the world" see injustice for what it is, while many in "the church" choose to look the other way.

Quite frankly, a victim of abuse was never helped when someone ignored the situation. A person suffering injustice needs more than the cliche, "I'm letting God lead."

[husbandoftheyear]

In other words there is not such a thing as absolutes? Is right and wrong simply based on our opinions, our perceptions, our feelings??

I simply cannot agree with this. In reality there are principles involved that are unchangable regardless of our perception of them.

I agree that there are different ways to do the right thing, but it only goes so far. Ignoring abuse and injustice simply does not fit into that category. Phrases such as "Let go and let God" simply do not apply here.

I honestly belive that many in "the world" see injustice for what it is, while many in "the church" choose to look the other way.

Quite frankly, a victim of abuse was never helped when someone ignored the situation. A person suffering injustice needs more than the cliche, "I'm letting God lead."

As Christians, I would hope that we share some "absolute" principles. However, there are many people in the world who do not. Since absolutes are not embrace by the entire population, they cannot, obviously, be absolutes, can they? If you believe that humans live by "absolutes" try joinging an abortion debate. I promise there will be many different principles in the mix.

As for acting or letting God act - I am not saying that we shouldn't step in. I'm saying that perhaps it is God working when someone chooses not to act.


If one sticks too rigidly to one's principles, one would hardly see anybody.

Agatha Christie (1890 - 1976)

This post has been edited by husbandoftheyear: Aug 27 2006, 05:17 PM

[Expression]

As Christians, I would hope that we share some "absolute" principles. However, there are many people in the world who do not. Since absolutes are not embrace by the entire population, they cannot, obviously, be absolutes, can they?

Right has never been determined by the majority. If 99.9% of the American people believed that child molestation was okay that would not make it right. Many do not live by principle, but that does not mean that it is non-existent.