Can Danny Change Options

[PeacefulBe]

justme, your post reminded me of some passages that have been such a blessing to me. I thought I’d share them with all of you!

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Isaiah 26:3 You will keep in perfect peace him whose mind is steadfast, because he trusts in you.

Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

May you all rejoice in the Lord and have this peace!

[Expression]

I have been reading the different posts about the hardening of Danny's heart and that we don't see a change and what he would need to do for us to see a change or by your fruits we shall know you. I have been doing a lot of thinking about this and here is what I think. Danny CAN change. Even if the Lord is hardening his heart he can still change. If he stops long enough to listen.

SOoooo-the way I see it. Danny can change if he repents and changes. His hard heart can be softened by the Holy Spirit--IF he surrenders his whole self to God. That means-NO ME in 3abn. Just God. I believe that God is working through 3abn. It is winning souls to Jesus Christ everyday. However until Danny surrenders and repents God cannot work through HIM!! As long as he allows people to call him the annointed one and takes credit for 3abn God will not use him for his will.

Tomorrow evening 3ABN camp meeting is scheduled to begin. Though I’m not sure exactly what to expect, I wonder if what we saw during The Most Amazing Prophecies seminar was a sign of things to come. Danny is a smooth manipulator, and whether we see it this coming weekend or at a later time, I would not be surprised if at some point he plays the forgiveness/change card.

Christianity, especially Adventism, loves to buy the phrase “I’ve changed” and glorify God for the result. Too often however we do not know the real result. Things look good on the outside and so we tell ourselves they are. But looks, especially when it comes to abusers, can be extremely deceiving.

We owe it to ourselves to understand what constitutes true change so that we do not fall for the counterfeit.

I have referred several times to the book “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft. The reason being is that without excusing abuse Dr. Bancroft explains why it occurs. He talks about the attitudes that drive a controller and looks at the subject of change with a frankness and honesty I have come to appreciate.

Dr. Bancroft gives 13 ingredients for true change. If one of them is missing genuine change will not be the result.

The steps of an abuser who is truly changing are as follows:

1. Admit fully to his history of physiological, sexual, and physical abusiveness toward any current or past partners whom he has abused. Denial and minimizing need to stop, including discrediting your memory of what happened. He can’t change if he is continuing to cover up, to others or to himself, important parts of what he has done.

2. Acknowledge that the abuse was wrong, unconditionally.

3. Acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control. For example, he needs to recognize that there is a moment during each incident at which he gives himself permission to become abusive and that he chooses how far to let himself go.

4. Recognize the effects his abuse has had on you and on your children, and show empathy for those.

5. Identify in detail his pattern of controlling behaviors and entitled attitudes.

6. Develop respectful behaviors and attitudes to replace the abusive ones he is stopping.

7. Reevaluate his distorted image of you, replacing it with a more positive and empathic view.

8. Makes amends for the damage he has done.

9. Accept the consequences of his actions.

10. Commit to not repeating his abusive behaviors and honor that commitment.

11. Accept the need to give up his privileges to do so.

12. Accept that overcoming abusiveness is likely to be a lifelong process.

13. Be willing to be accountable to his actions, both past and future.

("Why Does He Do That?” pg. 339-342)

On page 360 Dr. Bancroft makes the following statement: “An abuser doesn’t change because he feels guilty or gets sober or finds God. He doesn’t change after seeing the fear in his children’s eyes or feeling them drift away from him. It doesn’t suddenly dawn on him that his partner deserves better treatment. Because of his self-focus, combined with the many rewards he gets from controlling you, an abuser changes only when he feels he has to, so the most important element in creating a context for change in an abuser is placing him in a situation where he has not other choice. Otherwise, it is highly unlikely that he will ever change his abusive behavior.”

At the end of the chapter Dr. Bancroft lists some key points to remember, some of which include the following:

You can’t make or even help an abusive man change. All you can do is
create the context for change, and the rest is up to him.

Change in an abusive man is not vague; it is highly specific.

An abusive man won’t change by “working on his anger,” unless he also does the more difficult work of changing his entitled attitudes.

Abusiveness is like poison ivy, with its extensive and entrenched root system. You can’t eradicate it by lopping off the superficial signs. It has to come out by the roots, which are the man’s attitudes and beliefs regarding partner relationships.

(“Why Does He Do That?” pg. 366)

May this be food for thought as we continue to watch the unfolding drama of 3ABN during the coming weeks and months.

[fallible humanbe...]

I have referred several times to the book “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft. The reason being is that without excusing abuse Dr. Bancroft explains why it occurs. He talks about the attitudes that drive a controller and looks at the subject of change with a frankness and honesty I have come to appreciate.

Dr. Bancroft gives 13 ingredients for true change. If one of them is missing genuine change will not be the result . . .

On page 360 Dr. Bancroft makes the following statement: “An abuser doesn’t change because he feels guilty or gets sober or finds God. He doesn’t change after seeing the fear in his children’s eyes or feeling them drift away from him. It doesn’t suddenly dawn on him that his partner deserves better treatment. Because of his self-focus, combined with the many rewards he gets from controlling you, an abuser changes only when he feels he has to, so the most important element in creating a context for change in an abuser is placing him in a situation where he has not other choice. Otherwise, it is highly unlikely that he will ever change his abusive behavior.”

May this be food for thought as we continue to watch the unfolding drama of 3ABN during the coming weeks and months.

Good and valuable stuff! However, I think there is a caveat in regards to this situation. The book does not indicate, insinuate, or otherwise require that the act of change (or the 13 items) be done publicly. The results are obvious through changed behavior that is observable by all outsiders. It is not our right as outsiders in the situation to demand that these things be done publicly (no insinuation here that you have done that, I am making a generalized statement). I would contend that there are many here who feel that they will never accept a change unless they get to see it happen - not the resulting change of behavior, but the actual process in all its detail step-by-step.

- fhb

[husbandoftheyear]

Tomorrow evening 3ABN camp meeting is scheduled to begin. Though I’m not sure exactly what to expect, I wonder if what we saw during The Most Amazing Prophecies seminar was a sign of things to come. Danny is a smooth manipulator, and whether we see it this coming weekend or at a later time, I would not be surprised if at some point he plays the forgiveness/change card.

I agree.

I think we'll either see some damage control or the forgiveness card played. He seems to like to use Campeeting as the platform for the 'first attack."

just my opinion...

This post has been edited by husbandoftheyear: Sep 27 2006, 06:22 PM

[Freedom]

[quote name='fallible humanbeing' date='Sep 27 2006, 02:26 PM' post='154000']
Good and valuable stuff! However, I think there is a caveat in regards to this situation. The book does not indicate, insinuate, or otherwise require that the act of change (or the 13 items) be done publicly. The results are obvious through changed behavior that is observable by all outsiders. It is not our right as outsiders in the situation to demand that these things be done publicly (no insinuation here that you have done that, I am making a generalized statement). I would contend that there are many here who feel that they will never accept a change unless they get to see it happen - not the resulting change of behavior, but the actual process in all its detail step-by-step.

- fhb
[/quote

WHOA, back off a minute FHB!

You just contricted yourself in your post.
"The results are obvious through changed behavior that is observable by all outsiders". "It is not our right as outsiders in the situation to demand that these things be done publicly".

If a person is in leadership and in such a public light - true change would be observable.
I haven't seen any other that from the 3ABN management/leadership people.

[summertime]

I agree.

I think we'll either see some damage control or the forgiveness card played. He seems to like to use Campeeting as the platform for the 'first attack."

just my opinion...

I just have trouble when the way is open for an abuser or a self seeking character to manipulate, abuse, coax and push until he gets what he wanted in the first place (such as a young, desired lady who is willing to marry an old man for the benefits it will give to her), and then the supposition is that when he/she has the desired changes, then we head for the forgiveness card, or the baptisimal tank, or the tears of hurt and false pretense, and we are told, that whatever his/her sins may have been, that God will forgive and those who have been hurt can just get over it. After all, they were expendable all along. I would like to see all these wrongs on the part of 3ABN be made right, but to tell you the truth, I am wondering if they ever will. Am I losing faith, or what?

[Treniece]

So I guess most persons who are comenting here are at least 99% sure that Danny Shelton is guilty of the things that are being said about him. Sixty percent of my intuition is sort of leaning towards his guilt. One thing for sure is, God is still using the 3abn ministry to reach others for Christ. If he is guilty and doesn't repent then he will be among those whom God will say: "depart from me I know you not" Maybe God is working through Danny Shelton's magnificent faith and his strong desire to spread the gospel. I believe if Danny Shelton wants to use God, God can use him also, this does not mean that he will make it into the kingdom of Heaven.



This post has been edited by Treniece: Oct 7 2006, 01:14 PM

[Lee]

Treniece--I agree with you. I'm about in the 60% camp too. But I've noticed how much people appreciate the programming on 3ABN. I like 3ABN better than Hope, although I do watch both.

[summertime]

[quote name=He brought a new women into his life and they got married and have 2 children and he has been straight for 14 years. His former wife and new wife have become friends. This man is a changed person and he preaches the grace of God. He doesn't tell the details of his story because he doesn't want to glorify Satan. (He has written a book telling more of the details you can get it at the ABC. Its called That Kind Can Never Change, Can They?) He preaches repentance and change. He tells you without repentnce and change there can be no forgiveness. I tell you you can see God shining in his eyes. He loves the Lord and the Lord has done a good work in him. It oozes out of him he can't hide it. He tells you we must die to self, surrender everything to God.

Just God. I believe that God is working through 3abn. It is winning souls to Jesus Christ everyday. However until Danny surrenders and repents God cannot work through HIM!! As long as he allows people to call him the annointed one and takes credit for 3abn God will not use him for his will.

What do you think? tb
[/quote]

I think I wonder if this man, who had given his heart to God in repentence, and I am happy for his change,----Did he commit adultry all over again when he found and married a new wife---Had his first wife remarried, thus giving him the idea that he was free to marry again and raise a new family? Praise God for his change, ---It is just that I do not understand him (in the eyes of God)to be able to pastor another church while at the same time marrying another wife. Maybe I am wrong. Will someone please explain this to me?

[summertime]

Treniece--I agree with you. I'm about in the 60% camp too. But I've noticed how much people appreciate the programming on 3ABN. I like 3ABN better than Hope, although I do watch both.

Lee, 3ABN, at this point, is being VP'd by a man who has hurt many people, used donor's money to further himself, does not admit that he has ever commited these things (plus others) while Hope TV is a Seventh Day Adventist network which is generating programs that are honest, sincere and working to line the gates of heaven--while 3ABN, is lining the pockets of a few men who live in comparative luxury--thank God for the good people who are keeping 3ABN alive. They are good people---Think how they will feel when the truth comes out. We need to pray that the leaders of our GC church will allow the truth to be told when the right time comes. There is a lot of good programming on 3ABN, but the story of Danny and his shananigans are not one of them. I chose not to watch as he goes on with his own charade. Hope TV may not yet be as polished and dramatic as 3ABN, but they are honest and truthful in where they intend for our donated dollars to go.

[summertime]

[Maybe God is working through Danny Shelton's magnificent faith and his strong desire to spread the gospel. I believe if Danny Shelton wants to use God, God can use him also, this does not mean that he will make it into the kingdom of Heaven.
[/quote]

Danny Shelton's magnificent faith!. I will see his magnificent faith when Linda and Alyssia's reputation is restored and the retribution is made of the misuse of donor's money. I am not worried about him showing magnificient faith---I would just like to see him admit to the mistreatment that he has bestowed to so many. Then maybe I would agree that he has magnificient faith. BY THEIR FRUITS YOU SHALL KNOW THEM.

Is he spreading the gospel?. A lot of our evangelists are spreading the gospel and they will be blessed. But even Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker claim to spread the Gospel.

[justme]

[Maybe God is working through Danny Shelton's magnificent faith and his strong desire to spread the gospel. I believe if Danny Shelton wants to use God, God can use him also, this does not mean that he will make it into the kingdom of Heaven.
Danny Shelton's magnificent faith!. I will see his magnificent faith when Linda and Alyssia's reputation is restored and the retribution is made of the misuse of donor's money. I am not worried about him showing magnificient faith---I would just like to see him admit to the mistreatment that he has bestowed to so many. Then maybe I would agree that he has magnificient faith. BY THEIR FRUITS YOU SHALL KNOW THEM.

Is he spreading the gospel?. A lot of our evangelists are spreading the gospel and they will be blessed. But even Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker claim to spread the Gospel.

May years ago, I became acquainted with a very godly man, who also, by the way, had his own 'self-supporting work" (meaning it took no conference money, including personal tithes from people). There was a new wave of "unconventional forms" of church services. At he time, a lot of "drama" was all the rage. Much controversey surrounded the subject. He like the more traditional church services, but he said that he would not speak for God. He pointed out that God can reach the sincere and repentent heart. He said that even the most seemingly-offensive thing can have a purpose. Anything be used by God when the soul is lead by the Holy Spirit.

He gave me an example of "moldy bread". He said that we regularly discard moldy bread. But moldy bread has something that may be used to save a life. Properly processed then administered in the right dose, at the right time, under the ausopices of a Physician, can save a life. Pennicillin.

Over the years I have remembered this illustration. EGW point out in regards to eating certain foods, that what nourishes one person can be poisonous to another. God knows the needs of each heart and just what He needs to use to reach that heart, if that heart will respond.

I wonder what the people thought the first time they saw "Paul" a.k.a."Saul" after his conversion experience. Saul murdered "Christians", and had quite a reputation followed him. Why? .... How? ... could anyone know that his preaching about the "need to become Christians" was not a ploy?

Remorse?, Repentance?, Conversion? Restitution? Dewfinitely needs to be done. Whatever it takes.

[Observer]

In regard tko the statement: "I believe if Danny Shelton wants to use God, God can use him also, this does not mean that he will make it into the kingdom of Heaven."

Created beings (humans) were not placed on earth to use God. BAck up there a little.

[summertime]

May years ago, I became acquainted with a very godly man, who also, by the way, had his own 'self-supporting work" (meaning it took no conference money, including personal tithes from people). There was a new wave of "unconventional forms" of church services. At he time, a lot of "drama" was all the rage. Much controversey surrounded the subject. He like the more traditional church services, but he said that he would not speak for God. He pointed out that God can reach the sincere and repentent heart. He said that even the most seemingly-offensive thing can have a purpose. Anything be used by God when the soul is lead by the Holy Spirit.

He gave me an example of "moldy bread". He said that we regularly discard moldy bread. But moldy bread has something that may be used to save a life. Properly processed then administered in the right dose, at the right time, under the ausopices of a Physician, can save a life. Pennicillin.

Over the years I have remembered this illustration. EGW point out in regards to eating certain foods, that what nourishes one person can be poisonous to another. God knows the needs of each heart and just what He needs to use to reach that heart, if that heart will respond.

I wonder what the people thought the first time they saw "Paul" a.k.a."Saul" after his conversion experience. Saul murdered "Christians", and had quite a reputation followed him. Why? .... How? ... could anyone know that his preaching about the "need to become Christians" was not a ploy?

Remorse?, Repentance?, Conversion? Restitution? Dewfinitely needs to be done. Whatever it takes.

Even though I do not understand the whole moral of the story, I will agree that apparently Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker have shown remorse, repentence and maybe conversion. It probably would have been impossible for them to make full restitution, but I have not seen remorse, repentence, or restitution coming from 3ABN, have you? If they ever are willing to do that, then maybe God could use the 'moldy bread' to his benefit. I hope so.

[husbandoftheyear]

I must admit that I was once "moldy" myself. Before I became a Christian, I was involved in some less-than-noble things. God saved my life more than once and when I realized that He loved me just as I was but enough to not leave me as He found me, I gave my life to Him. Now, years later, I have had many chances to tell others of Him and His grace and mercy.

So - moldy I once was - but I found the Light!