An Ellen White Reality Check..., something long overdue... Options

[SoulEspresso]

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/more-prophet.asp
A NOTICE REGARDING MORE THAN A PROPHET
Dr. Graeme Bradford, retired professor from the Theology Department of Avondale College, recently authored a privately-published book entitled, More Than a Prophet: How We Lost and Found Again the Real Ellen White. The Foreword and advertising incorrectly state that the manuscript was evaluated favorably by officers of the Ellen G. White Estate. In actuality, while recognizing elements of the book on which we can agree, the White Estate staff has strong concerns regarding several of the viewpoints expressed in the book.
Included among these concerns are the following:
· The book expresses the view that prophets in the New Testament and beyond generally carry less authority than Old Testament prophets, and that the individual and/or congregation must separate the wheat from the chaff in the messages even of genuine prophets. Such a view confirms people in the human tendency to accept what they like in inspired writings and to reject as “chaff” the things with which they disagree.
· The book suggests that because Ellen White used sources in her writings relating to history, prophecy, health, or theology, the views she expressed may have originated more from her contemporaries than divine inspiration. Her depiction of end-time events, for example, as found in The Great Controversy, is portrayed as deriving primarily from the expectations of 19th century North American Adventists, having little application to today’s global society.
· While the White Estate staff recognizes that Ellen White was fallible and subject to human frailties—not unlike the biblical prophets—we maintain that certain positions taken in the book do not fairly reflect the understanding of Ellen White and her associates regarding her prophetic ministry, and fail to represent fully Ellen White’s prophetic contributions to the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
A review of More Than a Prophet will be offered at this site in the future. For a well-balanced discussion of God’s system of communication with human beings, we recommend The Voice of the Spirit, by the former director of the White Estate, Dr. Juan Carlos Viera, and Messenger of the Lord, by Dr. Herbert E. Douglass.

Well, all due respect to the White Estate, but they've got a long history of inflating her role and authority ($ a factor, perhaps?) ... and Messenger of the Lord is not a balanced book. It's hagiography. Bradford's stuff is a little better, what I've seen of it anyway.


This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Oct 2 2006, 02:41 PM

[awesumtenor]

Dr Patrick’s assessment of Ellen White and her writings seems to be much the same as Dr Graeme Bradford’s. Someone has just directed us to this official statement by the White Estate.

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/more-prophet.asp
A NOTICE REGARDING MORE THAN A PROPHET
Dr. Graeme Bradford, retired professor from the Theology Department of Avondale College, recently authored a privately-published book entitled, More Than a Prophet: How We Lost and Found Again the Real Ellen White. The Foreword and advertising incorrectly state that the manuscript was evaluated favorably by officers of the Ellen G. White Estate. In actuality, while recognizing elements of the book on which we can agree, the White Estate staff has strong concerns regarding several of the viewpoints expressed in the book.
Included among these concerns are the following:
· The book expresses the view that prophets in the New Testament and beyond generally carry less authority than Old Testament prophets, and that the individual and/or congregation must separate the wheat from the chaff in the messages even of genuine prophets. Such a view confirms people in the human tendency to accept what they like in inspired writings and to reject as “chaff” the things with which they disagree.
· The book suggests that because Ellen White used sources in her writings relating to history, prophecy, health, or theology, the views she expressed may have originated more from her contemporaries than divine inspiration. Her depiction of end-time events, for example, as found in The Great Controversy, is portrayed as deriving primarily from the expectations of 19th century North American Adventists, having little application to today’s global society.
· While the White Estate staff recognizes that Ellen White was fallible and subject to human frailties—not unlike the biblical prophets—we maintain that certain positions taken in the book do not fairly reflect the understanding of Ellen White and her associates regarding her prophetic ministry, and fail to represent fully Ellen White’s prophetic contributions to the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
A review of More Than a Prophet will be offered at this site in the future. For a well-balanced discussion of God’s system of communication with human beings, we recommend The Voice of the Spirit, by the former director of the White Estate, Dr. Juan Carlos Viera, and Messenger of the Lord, by Dr. Herbert E. Douglass.

You'd think that some could do just a little better than guilt by association as a means of discrediting...

Riddle me this, batman...

If the views of Dr. Patrick and anyone else who diverges from the .org party line are so dismissable, why did the transcripts of the 1919 Bible Conference lie hidden for 64 years? The issues raised by Dr. Patrick, Dr. Bradford and others are not new; they are merely new to this generation of Adventists. Had the information they are addressing been brought out 65 years ago as it should have been, in all likelihood, there is no "The White Lie" because Ellen White would not have be set up as someone worthy of worship... yeah I know; I've already heard it.... the whole 'we dont worship EGW' spiel... and from many of those spouting it they sound like the current administration on torture... the track record is patently inconsistent with the claim.

The church, IMO, has so embraced the ellenolatrist view that they have no choice but to try to discredit anything that could do damage to that view or call it into question...

The church disagrees with Dr Bradford... and by associative extension Dr. Patrick... but given that the points they make were not initiated by them but rather were items of concern for those who worked with Sis. White going back 100 years from today, concerns that the church saw fit to bury in favor of the revisionist, infallible posthumous pope of Adventism slant speaking ex cathedra ex sepulchra and hoping that none of the concerns which were widely known in the church prior to 1920 and buried since saw the light of day...

Why is that?

In His service,
Mr. J

[Clay]

as Soul Espresso hinted... follow the money... and the other factor, but elevating her writings the powers that be could control the members... literally causing many to stop thinking and rely on egw for everything from dress, to diet, to proper marriage activity...... and the dollars keep rolling in....

[Mel]

the fact is that her writings are used incorrectly.... and they are used in a manner she would not have liked... Now let's deal with the issues of the church covering up the leaderships reservations about her writings and how they should be used.... not to mention they met about it then burying the minutes of the meeting for decades....

Here's some historical research and facts that speak to this matter. Following are the first 8 or 9 paragraphs of a chapter on the 1919 Bible Conference/History Teacher's Council from Dr. Herb Douglass's book "Messenger of the Lord". It was particularly interesting for me to note the circumstances and motivations around the "burying of the minutes for decades". The balance of this chapter (indeed the whole book) can be found on the White Estate's website at http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt38.html -Mel

P.S. Just noticed the following comment by SoulExpresso, "...Messenger of the Lord is not a balanced book. It's hagiography...". I have not seen anything like that in the little I've read in this book. Mind sharing some examples of what has struck you as the book's hagiographic lack of balance...? Thanks... -Mel


Chapter 38
Hermeneutics/7
1919 Bible Conference/History Teachers Council

The Locked-up Manuscript
The Fruit of Ellen White’s Ministry
The Core Issue
Dark Cloud of Verbal Inspiration
What Should We Learn From the 1919 Conference/Council?
W. C. White Not Present
Downside of Verbal Inspiration
Endnotes
Study Questions


“The ‘pioneer position’ urged that the writings could not be divided into ‘inspired’ and ‘uninspired’ sections, but seemed to have no real means of dealing with apparent discrepancies. The ‘new view position,’ with its emphasis upon context, offered a means of explaining those apparent discrepancies. Each side seemed to have additional concepts that could have been useful to the other. Sufficient opportunity for a dialogue seemed to be present.”1

In 1919 a Bible Conference was held July 1-19, and a Teachers Council July 20-August 1. About sixty-five people attended these two meetings, not all present for both. About twenty-eight teachers are listed in attendance at the Council, representing fourteen colleges (2- and 4-year).2

Stenographers transcribed not only the lectures but also much of the ensuing discussions—a massive record of 2,494 pages. However, nearly half of these pages are duplicates, with the first copy totaling 1,308 pages. Of the 1,308 pages, about 1,100 are from the Bible Conference, the remainder from the Council.3

This material lay unnoticed in the General Conference archives until a year after the establishment of the General Conference Archives in 1983. Why were these records placed in the archives? The answer lies in the record itself. Many delegates talked freely, often in strong disagreement. Some would make comments that they would moderate after discussion. The judgment of many suggested that no possible good could come from publicizing the disagreements among leading Adventist thinkers over such colorful topics as “the Eastern question.” Some believed that it would be “a rather hazardous thing to throw this out all over.” Others wanted the material reduced about fifty percent and provided to the delegates only. Some wanted a synopsis sent to all church members, and others wanted nothing sent out.

After listening to the discussion, A. G. Daniells, president of the General Conference and chairman of the Bible Conference, said: “I sometimes think it would be just as well to lock this manuscript up in a vault, and have anyone who wishes to do so come there for personal study and research.”4

The Locked-up Manuscript

It is more than interesting that the president’s suggestion (which was eventually followed) was made subsequent to a spirited discussion regarding such subjects as the Eastern question and the Arian-Trinity controversy.5 Unfortunately, some have used Daniells’ statement to include the discussion on the authority and inspiration of Ellen White, a discussion that took place on July 30 and August 1, two weeks after Daniells’s suggestion “to lock up this manuscript.”

The two-day discussion in the Teachers Council on the role and function of Ellen White illuminated how Christians through the centuries, especially since the Reformation, have been in disagreement as to how God speaks through His prophets. One of the Adventist advantages is that Adventists lived very closely to Ellen White throughout her seventy-year ministry. They saw all aspects of her life and work. But even then, some Adventists strongly advocated the verbal inspiration position while others, more keenly aware of the process of revelation/inspiration, maintained the thought-inspiration position. This fundamental contention lay at the bottom of the discussion in 1919.

With W. E. Howell as chair of the Council, Daniells was asked to make the opening statement. He referred to his confidence in Ellen White even though he “had perplexities through the forty years” of his ministry, “but time has helped me to understand; and I have concluded that we do not see from the Lord’s standpoint.”

One of his concerns was the charge that he himself was a “doubter of the Testimonies” because he did not believe that they were verbally inspired.6 He appealed to the teachers: “Oh, I would feel terribly to have this denomination lose its true, genuine, proper faith in this gift that God gave to this church in these messages that have come to us. I want that we shall stay by this clear through to the end.”7
< s n i p >
--------------------------------------
Endnotes for the above excerpts...

1. Bert Haloviak, “Background and Aftermath of the 1919 Bible and History Teachers Conference,” an unpublished paper, 1979.

2. Robert W. Olson, “The 1919 Bible Conference and Bible and History Teachers Council,” available from the E. G. White Estate.

3. Ibid.

4. Stenographic report of the 1919 Bible Conference and Bible and History Teachers Council, p. 912.

5. The Eastern question refers to the interpretation of the “king of the North” in Daniel 11. Most had been preaching strongly, especially in evangelism, that the “king” was Turkey; others believed that the “king” referred to the activities of the Papacy at the end of time; see Schwarz, Light Bearers, pp. 400-402.

6. See pp. 16, 120, 173, 375, 376, 421 for a discussion of the difference between verbal inspiration and thought inspiration.

7. One of Daniells’s most lasting contributions to this church was his book, The Abiding Gift of Prophecy.

8. As an example of such “demonstrations,” Daniells referred to the story of Ellen White holding a “heavy Bible” on her outstretched hand. J. N. Loughborough records this miracle in his Rise and Progress of Seventh-day Adventists (pages 103, 104) and later in The Great Second Advent Movement (pages 236, 237) based on interviews he had with eyewitnesses of the event. Cursory readers of this discussion have mistakenly concluded that Daniells questioned the historicity of the event. They have missed Daniells’s point, which he clarified later in the discussion when specifically asked whether he was discrediting the miracle or stating that he would not use such manifestations as a “proof” of inspiration. He replied, “No, I do not discount them nor disbelieve them; but they are not the kind of evidence I would use with students or with unbelievers. . . . I do not question them, but I do not think they are the best kind of evidence to produce.” (Spectrum, vol. 10, No. 1, p. 37.)

This post has been edited by Mel: Oct 4 2006, 09:14 PM

[PrincessDrRe]

Just a quick note - When I went to Elmshaven; the home of EG White - it was stated that the story of her holding a giant bible for hours while preaching on one hand was an exaggeration. They did show her "Bible" - but it was stated by her own relatives that the story had been blown out of proportion (in other words - stretched/a lie).

[Guest_Lubega_*]

WOW that is news to me. Tell me this, Why do they allow the church to print things like that if they have no truth to them? It the church

But really why?

[Green Cochoa]

WOW that is news to me. Tell me this, Why do they allow the church to print things like that if they have no truth to them? ...

They have truth. But some folks have exaggerated, that's all. Did they say at Elmshaven that she had held the Bible for about 15-30 minutes? That's what I learned in grade school. Not hours. But we all tried to hold out a large dictionary which would have been equivalent of her family Bible, and we couldn't hold it at arm's length more than a minute. I'd say it was a miracle...I don't know even any grown men who would hold such a weight at arms length for 15 minutes. (I had never heard the "hours" figure before, so that was news to me....)

[PrincessDrRe]

They have truth. But some folks have exaggerated, that's all. Did they say at Elmshaven that she had held the Bible for about 15-30 minutes? That's what I learned in grade school. Not hours. But we all tried to hold out a large dictionary which would have been equivalent of her family Bible, and we couldn't hold it at arm's length more than a minute. I'd say it was a miracle...I don't know even any grown men who would hold such a weight at arms length for 15 minutes. (I had never heard the "hours" figure before, so that was news to me....)

When I saw the Bible - (replica of same in case) and was given the tour - it was stated that it was held for 5 TO 10 MINUTES and that it wasn't held by ONE HAND but switched back and forth BETWEEN BOTH OF HER HANDS

...by HER OWN RELATIVES.....

[Green Cochoa]

Heh...let's see you do that! Switch it back and forth between your hands, still holding it out at ARMS LENGTH for, let's say 5 minutes! I'd like to see this! You might actually be able to do it, if you are extremely determined and don't mind a little sweat poppin' out on your forehead! I doubt you'd feel too comfortable though.

Heh, when I was in school, one of my teachers used to inflict punishments on us for our mischiefs such as "the wall sit", the "dying cockroach", or the "duck waddle!" Hahaha....none of those was pleasant. Any of you get such punishments? Maybe I'm giving clues to my age now...hahaha... The wall sit was only for a minute usually, maybe two...and if you ever got up to three, you were getting pretty uncomfortable!

As for the relatives...a prophet is not without honor, except in his own house...in Jesus' words. I guess I don't give the relatives any more credibility than any other witness--maybe less. To me, a book that size at arm's length for even 10 minutes, if you wish are wishing to play down those numbers, is still nothing short of a miracle for a woman whose weakness and frailty is well-documented. BTJM.

[PrincessDrRe]

Heh...let's see you do that! Switch it back and forth between your hands, still holding it out at ARMS LENGTH for, let's say 5 minutes! I'd like to see this! You might actually be able to do it, if you are extremely determined and don't mind a little sweat poppin' out on your forehead! I doubt you'd feel too comfortable though.

Heh, when I was in school, one of my teachers used to inflict punishments on us for our mischiefs such as "the wall sit", the "dying cockroach", or the "duck waddle!" Hahaha....none of those was pleasant. Any of you get such punishments? Maybe I'm giving clues to my age now...hahaha... The wall sit was only for a minute usually, maybe two...and if you ever got up to three, you were getting pretty uncomfortable!

As for the relatives...a prophet is not without honor, except in his own house...in Jesus' words. I guess I don't give the relatives any more credibility than any other witness--maybe less. To me, a book that size at arm's length for even 10 minutes, if you wish are wishing to play down those numbers, is still nothing short of a miracle for a woman whose weakness and frailty is well-documented. BTJM.

Go to Elmshaven. Again - we chose to believe what we want to. While in the tour they (EGW's relatives) also spoke of her not being a "prophet" but having "words from GOD" - and her hate of the elevation to "prophet" (her actual direct command to not do so also).

We call the woman a "prophet" - when she herself stated not to.
We believe what we want; even when given factual information by those that have the true story.

Frail? Naw. Slightly unhealthy due to a head injury - possible. I'll give you that. ...but not frail (per her own relatives again....) Not discrediting the "story" (clutch the invisible/missing pearls!) but showing the fallicy of it and still the story being the basis of a miracle. A true miracle doesn't need embellishment.

Who am I to believe you over them (her own descendents/relatives)? Then again - who are you to believe me who took the tour - spoke directly with her direct descendents (who hold original documents that have not been seen by "outsiders of the family") - over the stories, (proven) lies, and fables that you have heard over the years of your life?

[Denny]

Whether EGW held the bible for 10 seconds or 10 hours the fact that some Adventists seem to need these stories to bolster the truth of her messages or that yes EGW was a true whatever to me is no better than people making a trip to Lourdes to see visions etc.... And we like to look down on churches that have that kind of thing don't we.... Good thing the dead know nothing cos Sista Ellen would turn in her grave.

This post has been edited by Denny: Oct 20 2006, 05:24 AM

[Green Cochoa]

Hmmm....

Some food for thought:

And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

* * * *

And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

* * * *

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

[watchbird]

Whether EGW held the bible for 10 seconds or 10 hours the fact that some Adventists seem to need these stories to bolster the truth of her messages or that yes EGW was a true whatever to me is no better than people making a trip to Lourdes to see visions etc.... And we like to look down on churches that have that kind of thing don't we.... Good thing the dead know nothing cos Sista Ellen would turn in her grave.

One of the great mysteries of the Adventist church is why the EGW Estate, which was originally founded to "carry out the instructions of Ellen White" regarding the use of her materials in perpetuity, so quickly and so thoroughly disobeyed those orders and have continued to "shoot her in the foot" to this very day.

Examples ... she was VERY explicit in forbidding the excerpting of her works.... even going so far as to say that "I have not written a book of proverbs".... and urging people to examine the context, not only of any specific statement, but also comparing that with other statements on the same subject. Yet the books of bound excerpts rolled from the presses ... are still sold ... and books even more fitting the description "proverbs" are still being assembled and marketed.

Meanwhile ... back on the ranch .... people like Craig Newborn, Jon Paulien, George Knight, Woodrow Whidden, Arthur Patrick, and Greame Bradford ... to name but a few ... are working diligently to "save" the real Ellen for future generations. And while the EGW Estate is also working towards the same goal.... and making it much easier to attain.... by making all the source material available to researchers... and working on making it all available to everyone... they are at the same time, picking and choosing whom they will support and whom they will refuse to support, thus calling into question not only the integrity of the persons they cast doubts upon, but upon their own integrity as well.

For a very current and explicit example of this, please take a look at the official EGW Estate webpage, http://www.ellenwhite.com/ and note the item marked with a "new" gif that reads .......

More Than A Prophet
Official White Estate Statement
Dr. Graeme Bradford, retired professor from the Theology Department of Avondale College, recently authored a privately-published book entitled, More Than a Prophet: How We Lost and Found Again the Real Ellen White. Click here to read the White Estate's initial statement about this new book

It is very short ... very vague ... please read before continuing to the info below....



Now ... once you have ruminated on the statement above a bit.... go read Graeme Bradford's response.... which you will find at http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/white/bradford/response.htm


This will take longer. Take your time.



This post has been edited by watchbird: Oct 21 2006, 03:01 AM

[PrincessDrRe]

Well!

[Guest_Lubega_*]

Now ... once you have ruminated on the statement above a bit.... go read Graeme Bradford's response.... which you will find at <a href="http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/white/bradford/response.htm" target="_blank">http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/white/bradford/response.htm</a>

This will take longer. Take your time.


[/quote]
I tried to open this site and it would not load. I would love to read it if you can check it and see what the problem may be.

WOW once I copied it into my reply to you then it opened. So disregard my last post I will go and read now. Carry on