Speaking in Tongues, from God, or something from Satan? Options

[watchbird]

I am going to differ with you just a bit on this one.... the issue is about a person's conversion first to Christ and then to the faith they claim. It has less to do with where a person has come from as do they believe what they say they do or are they "using the means available" to spread apostasy and corrupt what is in place. Sorry, but IMHO, this is more serious of an issue than anything else that has been presented (as a whole). If a person or people who do not share the belief system of the church are in authority (in general) the vision of the ministry is corrupt.

Let me be more specific: If a person is in leadership, in any capacity, it is more than reasonable to expect them to believe in the philosophy of the organization 100%--and the direction of the leadership. Jesus stated "a house divided against itself cannot stand"....it is a problem--a big problem.

If a person is in church leadership, but is "speaking in tongues" there is a big problem....this is not about music, or about a person who speaks in tongues and is Pentecostal. This is about whether you believe the message or not....if you do not, you are not fit to be a leader in that capacity. This is like me as a SDA Christian moving up into Catholic Church hierarchy....or me becoming the Director of an abortion clinic....or as a Black woman joining the Arian Nation.

I very much agree with you. While it is true that God meets everyone where they are, and so may indeed give a Pentecostal some message through their "speaking in tongues", it is also true that we as a church have taken the stand that the tongues spoken of in scripture were known languages and were for the purpose of spreading the gospel to those of many languages.

But the even more important question here is..... what have the Pentecostals who are so influential at 3abn teaching? Beartrap commented on this, calling it "A progression ... of the "God Complex." See http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=128116 and discussion following. And also his comment "Among charismatics, spiritual leaders are viewed as prophets and are not to be questioned. They have the full authority of God himself because they speak with the voice of God.... " at http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=133038

Sister took up this topic in more depth in the part of her series entitled "The Tree in the midst of the Garden..." in four parts.... where she describes the role and teachings of Mollie and ET Everett in building up Danny's charismatic beliefs system. See:

http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=128373
http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=128469
http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=128534
http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=135562

Her comments entitled "Persecution" also bear on this topic. http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=133691 , as also does her post called "Doing things for God...." at http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=134165 .

So whether we believe that the "gift of tongues" includes some ecstatic utterances as well as the "gift" of being able to learn multiple tongues and use them proficiency, or that it is restricted to the latter sense of the term "gift", I think that probably we would all agree that when this gift is constructed on a basic belief system which includes such concepts of "speaking for God".... or God speaking through an individual.... of the kind that has been described exists at 3ABN, then this is not merely a question of a "gift of the Spirit", but is a matter of setting one's self up "as god" and thus is not only a serious breaking of the first commandment, but also a part of the description of the "anti-Christ" power of scripture.

[Ralph]

Those who have the gift of teaching are teachers--but not without an education. So it is with tongues. I didn't learn to speak in multiple tongues overnight--rather it takes time to develop the gift.

In how many languages can you converse? I'm kinda stuck with English, but I have admiration for people who can speak more than one language -- and do it fluently.

[GrammieTana]

[quote name='SoulEspresso' date='Sep 19 2006, 11:42 AM' post='152563']
I'm not sure we're so far apart. Like I said, I don't approve of what's going on. And if the Steensons have a leadership role in a church whose doctrines they don't support, well, they need to be outed.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, so if I am, I welcome the correction. Do you have to disbelieve in speaking in tongues to be an Adventist? Is that a doctrinal thing with us?

I know our evangelists have trampled all over charismatics in their attempt to win people to our church (they love the Acts 2 passage on tongues and do their best to ignore 1 Cor 14), but they seem to love to kick other denominations down to make ours look taller --as if biblical doctrine weren't enough.

Like I said, maybe I'm missing your point. Someone who doesn't believe the 28 beliefs of the Adventist church shouldn't be in a leadership role--agreed. If the Steensons don't believe, they shouldn't be in leadership roles at 3ABN even if 3ABN isn't organically connected to the Adventist church.

I was more arguing with the viewpoint of, "Charismatics as such are patent unbelievers and will corrupt the message by speaking in tongues and believing in dreams and visions. Clearly they're of the devil." Hmm ... maybe I'm
[/quote

Dear SoulExpresso:

Not too long ago I came to the conclusion that 'speaking in tongues' is not an issue with God. I truly believe that it is just another tool of Satan to drive a wedge between people who believe differently from one another - 'speakers' think that SDA's and other mainline religions are not filled with the Holy Spirit because we don't 'speak in tongues' and even speak vociferously against it. By the same token our belief that those who do 'speak' are necessarily of the devil just doesn' follow with me. It keeps us from listening to their teachings regarding a working, active Faith from Scripture which is truly Biblical, not twisted out of context which show us that it is very important what words come out of our mouths that truly shapes our very lives for good or evil- in other words (and I have mentioned it on another thread in a more detailed way) when they are God's Word about a subject we can take the authority Jesus gave us to make these things happen. Because we have concluded that because they 'speak' they are 'of the devil' we won't listen to them; and because they believe that we are not filled with the Holy Spirit and are very legalistic (and let's face it, some of us are VERY legalistic in more ways than in doctrine -we try to use EGW as if everything she wrote came from the very mouth of God!), they refuse to listen to our core doctrines which are absolutely straight from Scripture.

And we apply Isaiah 8:20 to them as if EVERYTHING they teach is of the devil. That text is referring to the activity described in the previous text, Isaiah 8:19: which says "And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto the wizards that peep, that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?"

One of us is going to have to bite the bullet and at least examine what the other teaches to be certain that we are, first of all, not rejecting a precious teaching of Jesus, one which would allow us to do what Jesus said His followers would do in John 14:12: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father. 13: And whatsoever you shall ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14: If ye shall ask ANYTHING in MY NAME, I WILL do it.

Do they teach our pet doctrines - No! - and why should they?! We have already written them off as they have written us off!! I think if you ever get the courage to watch the Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar and other Charismatic programs, you will see a large audience which will be a part of the Latter Rain. And you just might learn some Bible truth that you would never hear in an SDA Church, at least for the time being. I pray that this will not be the status quo for much longer. I would love to see and be part of a miraculous healing or even a raising from the dead. What about you?

Okay, off the soapbox now.

Love you all, JT

This post has been edited by JustTana: Sep 19 2006, 12:53 PM

[simplysaved]

The issue of whether or not speaking in tongues is biblical should be addressed in the Adventist forum....

Let's get back on topic.

[Green Cochoa]

In how many languages can you converse? I'm kinda stuck with English, but I have admiration for people who can speak more than one language -- and do it fluently.

Well, only three right now, if we speak of fluency. I'm working on a fourth one which would give me the ability to converse in three of the four most populous languages of the world. My point, however, was simply that those "spiritual gifts" should not be understood to be "instant gifts" and that God expects us to develop our talents for His service. 3ABN is producing programs in several languages as well, so one might say they are using the gift of tongues. The gift of tongues IS NOT an "ability" to speak in words that no one can understand--the gift is for communication, not confusion. Any gibberish or nonsense coming out of someone's mouth who claims it's tongues won't impress me with their connection to God in the least, for God is not the author of confusion.

[Clay]

Well, only three right now, if we speak of fluency. I'm working on a fourth one which would give me the ability to converse in three of the four most populous languages of the world. My point, however, was simply that those "spiritual gifts" should not be understood to be "instant gifts" and that God expects us to develop our talents for His service. 3ABN is producing programs in several languages as well, so one might say they are using the gift of tongues. The gift of tongues IS NOT an "ability" to speak in words that no one can understand--the gift is for communication, not confusion. Any gibberish or nonsense coming out of someone's mouth who claims it's tongues won't impress me with their connection to God in the least, for God is not the author of confusion.

good points, and even so Paul said if there is one speaking in an unknown tongue they need to be doing that in an environment where its just them and God.....

[simplysaved]

That is what 1 Corinthians 14 says.....unfortunately, that is not what happens. There is usually no translator that can interpret, so the purpose does not edify the Church body.... and it is done in public as a sign that one has the Holy Spirit....

good points, and even so Paul said if there is one speaking in an unknown tongue they need to be doing that in an environment where its just them and God.....

This post has been edited by simplysaved: Sep 20 2006, 02:39 AM

[summertime]

good points, and even so Paul said if there is one speaking in an unknown tongue they need to be doing that in an environment where its just them and God.....

If we are going to speak in an environment where it is just God and me, then why do I need to speak in Tongues? Can not God understand English (or whatever Language one may speak)?

[Denny]

If we are going to speak in an environment where it is just God and me, then why do I need to speak in Tongues? Can not God understand English (or whatever Language one may speak)?

Agreed, I think Paul was being sarcastic....

[simplysaved]

¿Qué dijiste?

Agreed, I think Paul was being sarcastic....

[Clay]

¿Qué dijiste?

typing in tongues... where is the interpreter?

[simplysaved]

typing in tongues... where is the interpreter?

The Bible speaks to "speaking in tongues"...not typing.

"Say what?" or literally, "what did you say?"....

[Denny]

The Bible speaks to "speaking in tongues"...not typing.

"Say what?" or literally, "what did you say?"....

I said "I think Paul was being sarcastic" after all when one writes so many letters a little humour can be involved as well its not an invention of the devil.

[simplysaved]

...or ¿Cómo se dice? (what did you say/say what?) Al or LT problably knows this better than I do....

I think that is a reach on the interpretation...I do believe that a person can have a special communication with God and that there is a "language of heaven" ...I just also believe that it is personal and should be spoken (if out loud) in private or with a translator as the Bible says....BTJM

I said "I think Paul was being sarcastic" after all when one writes so many letters a little humour can be involved as well its not an invention of the devil.

This post has been edited by simplysaved: Sep 20 2006, 10:13 AM

[lurker]

I found this on a language website. I have the gift of Google. ¿Cómo? is the polite way of asking What? when you want someone to repeat what they have just said. (You may wish to add, “What did you say?” or ¿Qué dijiste?)

This post has been edited by lurker: Sep 20 2006, 10:14 AM