Speaking in Tongues, from God, or something from Satan? Options

[Green Cochoa]

God can give any gift He chooses to give. God can give it, as He usually does, by gifting the recipient with a "talent" or an ability which can then be developed into actual skill to work for God. OR God can give the gift instantly, and/or temporarily. I have heard of God giving the gift of piano playing--instantly. I have heard of God giving the gift of reading (the Bible of course)--instantly. But it is the exception, not the rule. So it is with tongues: instant capability is rare, and the gift more commonly makes its recipient able to learn languages with skill.

Why is that still a gift, then, if I must develop it on my own? Because "every good gift, and every perfect gift, is from above." It is important to realize that the God who made each of us has also empowered us with EVERY ability we have--whether or not we even use those abilities for Him. Additionally, while anyone can learn something given enough time and effort on their own, God gives the ability to learn more proficiently. For example, to use my case with languages and the reason I truly believe I have the gift of tongues: God has given me the ability to both hear and imitate many sounds which are not in my mother tongue (English). I have had more than one Asian-language speaker tell me that I'm the first American they have heard with such fluent pronunciation (accent) of their language. Some of those languages are tonal--which are infamous among English speakers for their difficulty, yet tones have never been difficult for me. For me to take credit to myself for my own abilities would be to deny God's Creatorship of me. I KNOW God has given me this ability, just as He has given me every other ability I own.

All the gifts should be considered in this light. God empowers us to do the work He has for us. If He wishes to send us as an ambassador for Him to a people of another language, He will give us the ability to reach them--to speak their language, if necessary. But, just as Daniel in Babylon, we must study to develop that "natural" ability. Many English speakers use terms such as "natural ability", "knack for something", "intuitive", "s/he's just a natural", etc. all which hide the fact that God has provided those gifts to us.

Danny Shelton, and his family, certainly have a gift for music. Danny has a gift for presentation (do we say "photogenic"?). Danny has a great many gifts, all which God has given him, but all which he has the power of choice in how he uses them. Just because God gives a gift does not mean God is glorified always by its use. We must maintain our constant connection to Christ, or risk using His gifts against Him.

This post has been edited by Green Cochoa: Sep 21 2006, 05:09 PM

[princessdi]

ITA!

. For example, to use my case with languages and the reason I truly believe I have the gift of tongues: God has given me the ability to both hear and imitate many sounds which are not in my mother tongue (English). I have had more than one Asian-language speaker tell me that I'm the first American they have heard with such fluent pronunciation (accent) of their language. Some of those languages are tonal--which are infamous among English speakers for their difficulty, yet tones have never been difficult for me. For me to take credit to myself for my own abilities would be to deny God's Creatorship of me. I KNOW God has given me this ability, just as He has given me every other ability I own.

[SoulEspresso]

This thread has gotten real interesting in the last two days. Luv it here.

Re: the young man who understood the English lessons in Spanish ... happened to a pastor I'm close to. A lady visiting one Sabbath commented to her friend what beautiful Spanish he preached in -- and I know he struggles with the most basic words outside of English. "Como esta?" is a struggle for him ... ... God is awesome.

So there's
1. The gift of speaking other human languages (developed over time--Green Cochoa and myself, although mine doesn't sound nearly as useful, and I'm out of practice )
2. The gift of learning other human languages spontaneously (happened to a friend of mine from SAU when she was an SM)
3. The gift of hearing in your own language what someone is saying in another
4. Ecstatic speech/glossalalia (sp?)

What I don't think we've reached a consensus on is the value of 4, speaking in tongues as practiced by many Christians mostly associated with the charismatic movement. Am I right?

I've read here that because of the mental dynamics involved, ecstatic speech potentially leaves a person open to demonic influence. I'm not sure I agree. Think of it like this: if a person lives her life in touch with the Holy Spirit generally, is He going to leave her because she has learned to relax her mind and enter ecstatic speech? (I describe it this way because of some descriptions I've read.) Does that go with what we know about God?

The reason I ask is that I seem to hear an assumption among us that God's presence with us, His children, is fickle and dependent on what spiritual activities we do or don't do. That doesn't seem to go along with John 10:27-29 ("... No one can snatch them out of My hand ...") or Matthew 28:20. If your mind is bent toward the Holy Spirit, you're not open to demonic possession.

God holds us responsible for what we know or what we're capable of knowing, not what we don't know or can't know because of our backgrounds/experiences/mental abilities.

It seems to me God is content to let people practice various things that aren't necessarily anti-biblical as He leads them along in their faith journey. Ecstatic speech is practiced widely across many faiths--but so are prayer and meditation. Should we quit those? This is why Adventists have concentrated so much on the cognitive content of faith--the things we "know," doctrine, Scripture. Any experience which leads a person away from the Bible isn't of the Holy Spirit, obviously. That can happen in prayer and meditation that aren't biblically grounded.

Some who speak ecstatically have described the experience as transporting them into the Presence of God very quickly. That's not a bad thing, is it? As long as any ideas, thoughts, guidance, that occurs in an ecstatic experience don't contradict Scripture, it can't be. We Adventists don't always realize that while we have to have the mental content, the doctrine, the cognition provided by Scripture to ground everything else, if we have all that without a living (dare I say "mystical"?) connection to God, you are spiritually dead.

I've had only a couple of ecstatic, mystical, transporting experiences with the Lord and none of them were accompanied by ecstatic speech. The cognitive content was very broad and biblical, too, but not particularly unique--the Lord just reminding me of things I already knew .

I would argue that the problem with 3ABN is neither the "signs and wonders" theology nor the idea that any of the leaders is specially led by God. Whether or not any of these ideas is valid in application to 3ABN depends on "the fruits" (or to use justme's definitions, the "manifestations"). The problem, then, is the total lack of transparency and accountability in the organization in
1) the treatment of Linda Shelton
2) financial management
3) other matters which are too sensitive to discuss at length, at this time.

While it's clear to me that God, Opportunist that He is, uses 3ABN all the time, it would seem to me that at least some of the individual lives are animated by another spirit altogether ... "by their fruits/manifestations."

Am I right? Or full of it?

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Sep 22 2006, 08:58 AM

[Clay]

You are ON POINT.... well said SoulExpresso you are preachin up in dis place.... mercy.....

[princessdi]

I told you I knew I liked that name!!! Preach!!!!! I am glad I did not try to explain. You broke that down! You got cds? LOL!!!!!

[Clay]

where is that "shoutin" smiley? How about the "slain in the spirit" smiley..... he broke it all the way down did he not...... give him a church right now.....

[PeacefulBe]

SoulEspresso, very well said! WooHoo!(um, did I just use glossalalia?)

[västergötland]

Some who speak ecstatically have described the experience as transporting them into the Presence of God very quickly. That's not a bad thing, is it? As long as any ideas, thoughts, guidance, that occurs in an ecstatic experience don't contradict Scripture, it can't be. We Adventists don't always realize that while we have to have the mental content, the doctrine, the cognition provided by Scripture to ground everything else, if we have all that without a living (dare I say "mystical"?) connection to God, you are spiritually dead.

Am I right? Or full of it?

Many good points in this, Ill just comment on these. I think this describes, not every individual adventist, but many benchwarmer as well as what is thaught by (again not all who preach) adventism. Or maybe it is just me lacking the spirit to disern the spirit in others? Where could we go to learn and experience life in the Spirit?

/Thomas

[saharafan]

NOTE: The contents of this post is intended only for those among us who are grateful to God for the gift of the Spirit of Phopecy and who believe in its manifestation in the ministry and writings of Ellen G. White and are willing to accept guidance and counsel and insight and correction and help for our spiritual life and growth from God through her writings even if some of our dearly held views are contradicted by her testimonies. All others are welcome to simply ignore it.

MARANATHA p. 154
Chap. 146 - Fanaticism and Tongues Speaking

The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1 Cor. 14:32, 33.

A spirit of fanaticism has ruled a certain class of Sabbathkeepers. . . . They have sipped but lightly at the fountain of truth and are unacquainted with the spirit of the message of the third angel. Nothing can be done for this class until their fanatical views are corrected. . . . {Mar 154.1}
Some of these persons have exercises which they call gifts and say that the Lord has placed them in the church. They have an unmeaning gibberish which they call the unknown tongue, which is unknown not only by man but by the Lord and all heaven. Such gifts are manufactured by men and women, aided by the great deceiver. Fanaticism, false excitement, false talking in tongues, and noisy exercises have been considered gifts which God has placed in the Church. Some have been deceived here. The fruits of all this have not been good. . . . {Mar 154.2} (1T 412)

1 TESTIMONIES p. 412
"Ye shall know them by their fruits." Fanaticism and noise have been considered special evidences of faith. Some are not satisfied with a meeting unless they have a powerful and happy time. They work for this and get up an excitement of feeling. But the influence of such meetings is not beneficial. When the happy flight of feeling is gone, they sink lower than before the meeting because their happiness did not come from the right source. The most profitable meetings for spiritual advancement are those which are characterized with solemnity and deep searching of heart; each seeking to know himself, and earnestly, and in deep humility, seeking to learn of Christ. {1T 412.1}

1 TESTIMONIES p. 414
There are wandering stars professing to be ministers sent of God who are preaching the Sabbath from place to place, but who have truth mixed up with error and are throwing out their mass of discordant views to the people. Satan has pushed them in to disgust intelligent and sensible unbelievers. Some of these have much to say upon the gifts and are often especially exercised. They give themselves up to wild, excitable feelings and make unintelligible sounds which they call the gift of tongues, and a certain class seem to be charmed with these strange manifestations. A strange spirit rules with this class, which would bear down and run over anyone who would reprove them. God's Spirit is not in the work and does not attend such workmen. They have another spirit. Still, such preachers have success among a certain class. But this will greatly increase the labor of those servants whom God shall send, who are qualified to present before the people the Sabbath and the gifts in their proper light, and whose influence and example are worthy of imitation. {1T 414.1}

1 TESTIMONIES pp. 418f
Some rejoice and exult that they have the gifts, which others have not. May God deliver His people from such gifts. What do these gifts do for them? Are they through the exercise of these gifts, brought into the unity of the faith? And do they convince the unbeliever that God is with them of a truth? When these discordant ones, holding their different views, come together and there is considerable excitement and the unknown tongue, they let their light so shine that unbelievers would say: These people are not sane; they are carried away with a false excitement, and we know that they do not have the truth. (1T 418.2)

GREAT CONTROVERSY pp. 464f
Before the final visitation of God's judgments upon the earth there will be among the people of the Lord such a revival of primitive godliness as has not been witnessed since apostolic times. The Spirit and power of God will be poured out upon His children. ... The enemy of souls desires to hinder this work; and before the time for such a movement shall come, he will endeavor to prevent it by introducing a counterfeit. In those churches which he can bring under his deceptive power he will make it appear that God's special blessing is poured out; there will be manifest what is thought to be great religious interest. Multitudes will exult that God is working marvelously for them, when the work is that of another spirit. Under a religious guise, Satan will seek to extend his influence over the Christian world. {GC 464.1}
In many of the revivals which have occurred during the last half century, the same influences have been at work, to a greater or less degree, that will be manifest in the more extensive movements of the future. There is an emotional excitement, a mingling of the true with the false, that is well adapted to mislead. Yet none need be deceived. In the light of God's word it is not difficult to determine the nature of these movements. Wherever men neglect the testimony of the Bible, turning away from those plain, soul-testing truths which require self-denial and renunciation of the world, there we may be sure that God's blessing is not bestowed. And by the rule which Christ Himself has given, "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16), it is evident that these movements are not the work of the Spirit of God. {GC 464.2}

Please read also SELECTED MESSAGES, BOOK 3, PP. 362-379; BOOK 2, PP. 40-47

[awesumtenor]

NOTE: The contents of this post is intended only for those among us who are grateful to God for the gift of the Spirit of Phopecy and who believe in its manifestation in the ministry and writings of Ellen G. White and are willing to accept guidance and counsel and insight and correction and help for our spiritual life and growth from God through her writings even if some of our dearly held views are contradicted by her testimonies. All others are welcome to simply ignore it.
Please read also SELECTED MESSAGES, BOOK 3, PP. 362-379; BOOK 2, PP. 40-47

NOTE: Preemptive ad hominem shots across the bows of those who may not see eye to eye with you are not conducive to dialog. This is a public forum and any can agree or disagree, in part or in full, with any post made to the forum. You are not in a position to presume who is or is not 'grateful to God for' any spiritual gift He may give as He wills... and if some have taken it upon themselves to point such persons out to you as if they know... please keep in mind who the accuser of the brethren is and whether his tactics are of God.

Also know that one's disagreeing with your application of what Sister White may say does not mean they disagree with Sister White; even if one accepts her writings as inspired, you application of said writings is not and never has been...and it is invariably that application that is being disagreed with... so to paint such disagreement as one's rejecting EGW is disingenuous at best.

In His service,
Mr. J

[simplysaved]

Thank you for sharing this counsel...it has indeed given me much to think about and is very much appreciated....

NOTE: The contents of this post is intended only for those among us who are grateful to God for the gift of the Spirit of Phopecy and who believe in its manifestation in the ministry and writings of Ellen G. White and are willing to accept guidance and counsel and insight and correction and help for our spiritual life and growth from God through her writings even if some of our dearly held views are contradicted by her testimonies. All others are welcome to simply ignore it.
Please read also SELECTED MESSAGES, BOOK 3, PP. 362-379; BOOK 2, PP. 40-47

I have Maranatha...and need to give it another good read....

[saharafan]

NOTE: Preemptive ad hominem shots across the bows of those who may not see eye to eye with you are not conducive to dialog. This is a public forum and any can agree or disagree, in part or in full, with any post made to the forum. You are not in a position to presume who is or is not 'grateful to God for' any spiritual gift He may give as He wills... and if some have taken it upon themselves to point such persons out to you as if they know... please keep in mind who the accuser of the brethren is and whether his tactics are of God.

My little "note" was not intended to be a "preemtive ad hominem shot" (I don't even know for sure what this means...). If it is easily misunderstood as such, I appologize... It was just a simple and honest statement that I don't want to "proof my case" with some "proof-texts" but that I want to help those who accept Ellen White in the mentioned way to gain a better understanding, or a warning, or to have at least something serious to think about. I just have had somewhat negative experiences on this forum in the past when I quoted Ellen White so far from some who had a different viewpoint and there were some reactions where I could even have felt to be personally attacked if I would be very sensitive. Therefore this time, I wanted to leave it to the reader to decide for himself whether to accept these statements from sister White or not, and what he will do with it, and I didn't want to give the impression that I want to "push my way" or to "defend" myself with her writings. That's all.

Also know that one's disagreeing with your application of what Sister White may say does not mean they disagree with Sister White; even if one accepts her writings as inspired, you application of said writings is not and never has been...and it is invariably that application that is being disagreed with... so to paint such disagreement as one's rejecting EGW is disingenuous at best.

I didn't expressively give any clear "application" of those statements. But besides that I accept your comment and would agree with it. Every reader has to use his own mind and ratio to interpret her writings on this subject, and I don't claim infallibility in this area... However, to me those quoted statements are very clear and leave little room for variety... We need to be honest with ourselves. And very similar principles of interpretation would apply to her writings as to the Bible. I am willing to discuss the interpretation of her writings on this subject in a fair way with those who believe in her inspiration, but I don't see any need or usefulness to again start a discussion right here now about her inspiration and authority and don't want to be ridiculed here again for "believing" in her gift by those who seem to disagree with her (and my) position on this (or any given) point.

Again, I wanted to help those who have questions on this subject and seek for answers and would accept help from Ellen White's writings to come to those answers. Those who don't have any questions and don't appreciate being warned when in danger of being deceived or those who don't attribute any authority to her writings don't need to be bothered by her statements nor by my posting of them... (This is not ment in any way polemically or accusatively, it simply is a honest and factual personal statement.)

This post has been edited by saharafan: Sep 23 2006, 08:06 AM

[awesumtenor]

My little "note" was not intended to be a "preemtive ad hominem shot" (I don't even know for sure what this means...). If it is easily misunderstood as such, I appologize... It was just a simple and honest statement that I don't want to "proof my case" with some "proof-texts" but that I want to help those who accept Ellen White in the mentioned way to gain a better understanding, or a warning, or to have at least something serious to think about. I just have had somewhat negative experiences on this forum in the past when I quoted Ellen White so far from some who had a different viewpoint and there were some reactions where I could even have felt to be personally attacked if I would be very sensitive. Therefore this time, I wanted to leave it to the reader to decide for himself whether to accept these statements from sister White or not, and what he will do with it, and I didn't want to give the impression that I want to "push my way" or to "defend" myself with her writings. That's all.

While your intent may have been good, to quote George Bernard Shaw, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions..." As I noted before, you are not in a position to say who does or does not accept EGW in the overall; individual poster may have stated such specifically to you but beyond that where you have differed with others is not in whether or not they 'accept EGW' but rather in how you choose to apply her writings and whether said application is correct. Anything, posted by anyone, is left up to the reader to do with as he will and if they choose to differ with you, that is not an issue of personal animosity, nor does it mean they perceive you to be a bad person because they agree... so there is no need to be defensive and to come out of your corner swinging.

There will be disagreement and occasionally said disagreement will be passionate; that is the nature of this forum... but it's not personal, even if some are inclined to take it personally. Your disclaimer comes off as " this is for people who agree with me; those who dont, your opinions dont count because I wasnt talking to you in the first place"... and there are those who like to believe that this is the republican national convention where only long time, card carrying conservative ideologues who toe the .org party line need present themselves to say anything... the problem with such thinking is that is not how things are done here and dissent is not only allowed, it is expected ( or at least should be ). That doesnt mean you are obligated to alter what you believe one iota, however.

I didn't expressively give any clear "application" of those statements. But besides that I accept your comment and would agree with it. Every reader has to use his own mind and ratio to interpret her writings on this subject, and I don't claim infallibility in this area... However, to me those quoted statements are very clear and leave little room for variety... We need to be honest with ourselves. And very similar principles of interpretation would apply to her writings as to the Bible. I am willing to discuss the interpretation of her writings on this subject in a fair way with those who believe in her inspiration, but I don't see any need or usefulness to again start a discussion right here now about her inspiration and authority and don't want to be ridiculed here again for "believing" in her gift by those who seem to disagree with her (and my) position on this (or any given) point.

For one who claims to have not taken disagreement as a personal attack, you sure sound like one who felt disagreement was a personal attack ... your application of this is problematic in this wise. If what EGW said in the quoted text can and should be extrapolated to a universal application... IOW if her assessment of the meetings spoken of should be applied to every time there is ecstatic utterance, what of the rest of what she writes? Should it be viewed as universally applicable as well? What about a ststement like:

"Let none be educated to look to Sister White, but to the mighty God, who gives instruction to Sister White."--Letter 11, 1894. {3SM 29.3}

By the 'cut and dried' approach you have presented here, this should be universally applied as well... but if it were universally applied, you would be wrong in even presenting quotes from Sis. White to bolster your position. There are other places, where one can find passages from her writings to support the stance of both sides of an issue; which one is correct?

It is not as plain as you claim once one goes deeper than the varnish...

Again, I wanted to help those who have questions on this subject and seek for answers and would accept help from Ellen White's writings to come to those answers. Those who don't have any questions and don't appreciate being warned when in danger of being deceived or those who don't attribute any authority to her writings don't need to be bothered by her statements nor by my posting of them...

Since I fall into neither camp, my question to you stands.

In His service,
Mr. J

[PeacefulBe]

NOTE: The contents of this post is intended only for those among us who are grateful to God for the gift of the Spirit of Phopecy and who believe in its manifestation in the ministry and writings of Ellen G. White and are willing to accept guidance and counsel and insight and correction and help for our spiritual life and growth from God through her writings even if some of our dearly held views are contradicted by her testimonies. All others are welcome to simply ignore it.
Please read also SELECTED MESSAGES, BOOK 3, PP. 362-379; BOOK 2, PP. 40-47

Thank you for gathering and presenting these EGW selections. I believe they are applicable to the discussion on the gift of tongues that is going on here.

I appreciate your introduction as well. My take on it was that you weren't trying to force Sister White down anyone's throat. What I don't understand is the statement that I have highlighted. What do you see as our "dearly held views that are contradicted by her testimonies"?

[PeacefulBe]

NOTE: Preemptive ad hominem shots across the bows of those who may not see eye to eye with you are not conducive to dialog. This is a public forum and any can agree or disagree, in part or in full, with any post made to the forum. You are not in a position to presume who is or is not 'grateful to God for' any spiritual gift He may give as He wills... and if some have taken it upon themselves to point such persons out to you as if they know... please keep in mind who the accuser of the brethren is and whether his tactics are of God.

Also know that one's disagreeing with your application of what Sister White may say does not mean they disagree with Sister White; even if one accepts her writings as inspired, you application of said writings is not and never has been...and it is invariably that application that is being disagreed with... so to paint such disagreement as one's rejecting EGW is disingenuous at best.

In His service,
Mr. J

I sure didn't read saharafan's post as him claiming to be inspired. However, I believe that the Holy Spirit can bring to our minds texts, passages, etc. and that certainly can be considered "inspiration". Just my humble opinion.