3abn?, Left Out Options

[västergötland]

Greenie, its not the details here but the entire concept. Your argument is invalid unless and until you can show that God has specifically asked 3abn, hopeTV and/or LL TV not to tell those seeking more information on their respective websites that they are working with (if not for) the SDA church. Your argument is invalid unless and untill you can show that God has specifically asked the pastor doing a citywide crusade or archeological meeting series or Daniel and Revelation seminar series not to tell their audience that they are working for or are sponsored by the SDA church. You write that

Not at all. I am arguing that when God commands, we should follow, and it is not always wise to proclaim oneself and one's motives to every person who happens along.

Show me where God has commanded in scripture or anywhere else that the SDA evangelists should hide the SDA name and logo. Show me that your point above contains any relevant substance at all.
You further wrote

I am saying only that we must be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, as Christ Himself commanded. God Himself gave Samuel his instructions, and God did not tell Samuel to go disguised.

And for that exact reason, Samuel is at best a very weak example to this particular situation that we are discussing here. I do not believe that "wise as serpants and harmless as doves" in any way mean that people are to find out about SDA participation in evangelistic efforts from the rumor mills.

As for Matthew 16:20, some insight is offered in this following quote from Matthew Henrys commentary.

Lastly, Here is the charge which Christ gave his disciples, to keep this private for the present (v. 20); They must tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. What they had professed to him, they must not yet publish to the world, for several reasons; 1. Because this was the time of preparation for his kingdom: the great thing now preached, was, that the kingdom of heaven was at hand; and therefore those things were now to be insisted on, which were proper to make way for Christ; as the doctrine of repentance; not this great truth, in and with which the kingdom of heaven was to be actually set up. Every thing is beautiful in its season, and it is good advice, Prepare thy work, and afterwards build, Prov. 24:27. 2. Christ would have his Messiahship proved by his works, and would rather they should testify of him than that his disciples should, because their testimony was but as his own, which he insisted not on. See Jn. 5:31, 34. He was so secure of the demonstration of his miracles, that he waived other witnesses, Jn. 10:25, 38. 3. If they had known that he was Jesus the Christ, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory, 1 Co. 2:8. 4. Christ would not have the apostles preach this, till they had the most convincing evidence ready to allege in confirmation of it. Great truths may suffer damage by being asserted before they can be sufficiently proved. Now the great proof of Jesus being the Christ was his resurrection: by that he was declared to be the Son of God, with power; and therefore the divine wisdom would not have this truth preached, till that could be alleged for proof of it. 5. It was requisite that the preachers of so great a truth should be furnished with greater measures of the Spirit than the apostles as yet had; therefore the open asserting of it was adjourned till the Spirit should be poured out upon them. But when Christ was glorified and the Spirit poured out, we find Peter proclaiming upon the house-tops what was here spoken in a corner (Acts 2:36), That God hath made this same Jesus both Lord and Christ; for, as there is a time to keep silence, so there is a time to speak.

Lastly

Fish are not caught by brandishing the hook. Jesus teaches us how to fish for men.

Fish are caught by net, the ones caught by hook are to 90% catched for sport.

[Green Cochoa]

Greenie, its not the details here but the entire concept. Your argument is invalid unless and until you can show that God has specifically asked 3abn, hopeTV and/or LL TV not to tell those seeking more information on their respective websites that they are working with (if not for) the SDA church.

You have no grounds to say it is an invalid argument on that basis. I could just as easily turn that around and say you must prove that God has not given them such instructions. It boils down to the fact that neither you nor I should try to them them what God is telling them. They should be getting their instructions firsthand.

Your argument is invalid unless and untill you can show that God has specifically asked the pastor doing a citywide crusade or archeological meeting series or Daniel and Revelation seminar series not to tell their audience that they are working for or are sponsored by the SDA church.

Can you prove God has NOT led pastors to reach people this way? You have completely mistaken my point, and that of the Bible. We are not to tell a lie. There is a very large and distinct difference between telling a half truth, or simply not disclosing everything, and telling a lie. I never advocated lying. If someone asks, tell. If they do not ask, it may not be in GOD'S best interest for us to broadcast some things, even though they are truth.

You write that Show me where God has commanded in scripture or anywhere else that the SDA evangelists should hide the SDA name and logo. Show me that your point above contains any relevant substance at all.

Jesus hid, as it were, His identity from the men on their way to Emmaus. He did reveal His identity in the end. But why did He not immediately identify Himself to them? What purpose would that serve? Do you question His wisdom?

You further wroteAnd for that exact reason, Samuel is at best a very weak example to this particular situation that we are discussing here. I do not believe that "wise as serpants and harmless as doves" in any way mean that people are to find out about SDA participation in evangelistic efforts from the rumor mills.

I know of a number of people who have become Christians because they were drawn into it WITHOUT REALIZING what they were getting into. If someone had come to them saying he/she was a Christian, they would have turned away. God does not reach everyone by the same methods. Because individual circumstances vary, who are we to tell the one witnessing how to do his/her work? God will give words to say. Samuel was not told to disguise himself. He was simply given an alibi. He was told to say something that was to be true, but was not his true motive. We will not easily win people by telling them that we are trying to catch them--they will run.

LastlyFish are caught by net, the ones caught by hook are to 90% catched for sport.

Color your net brightly with reflective material in clear water and see how many fish will come. Fish, like people, will not come near if the trap is obvious. Whether it's a net or a hook matters little.

The fact is that the devil doesn't play fair. He has prejudiced the minds of many against God's truths and against those who teach them. Many in the world believe the lies that they have heard regarding the church being a cult. Some do not even know we are Christians. There are some who would come to a meeting just because they heard it was an Adventist meeting. There are probably at least twice as many who would stay away if that fact were known. Then there are those who have no clue who Adventists are. To these, the name may not deter them. Put out your Adventist banner, if you wish, you will reach a certain class of people. God uses others who work differently to reach other classes of people. Let us all work together and recognize that God is not limited to just one style of evangelism.

As for 3ABN, LLBN, and Hope, only God knows what they should be doing, and hopefully they are following His orders to the best of their ability. I do not judge them.

I am proud to be an Adventist. I'm proud of the name. But just because I am not embarrassed about it does not mean it is always prudent to proclaim it. Enough said.

[Clay]

enough said? nope not even.... not until everything has been said....

[PeacefulBe]

GC,

There is a large difference between using wisdom in a particular situation and employing lack of faith. Wisdom in a “closed” country would be not verbally offering that you are a Christian when the information is unsolicited. Lack of faith is not admitting it when asked.

Jacob, Jonah and Abraham were, by their deceptions, most definitely exhibiting their lack of faith in God’s power. Each had to face the consequences of their faithless actions.

The instance with Samuel that you cited reminds me of when God told Moses to go back to Egypt and demand from Pharaoh the release of His enslaved children. Each lacked confidence, faith, that God’s power was sufficient for the task so God told Samuel to take a heifer and Moses to take Aaron. Could God have kept Samuel safe on his journey to find David? Of course. Samuel just didn’t have enough faith to believe it at the time. Could God have given Moses the words he needed for Pharaoh? Undoubtedly. Even though he had heard the voice of God speaking to him from the burning bush, Moses allowed fear to hobble his faith.

Are we to second-guess God? Are we omniscient so that we can rightly determine what the hearts of those we are trying to reach are ready to hear? Does spreading the Gospel really need a deceptive scheme?

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32

What is the bait we should disguise the hook with when fishing for men? Could it perhaps be a character –both personal and corporate – that so reflects the image of Christ that no deception is necessary?

[princessdi]

While you are there, PB, let's include the disciples and spostles who knew the authorities would be looking for themt to imprison and even torture and kill them, but they still never went into a city on the DL. Paul went right to the front of the temple. John the Baptist sure wasn't problaming anything Herod and his wife wanted to hear, but he proclaimed it just the same, in public.

I am sorry, it just won't wash. With all evangelistic meetings, we mean to add new members to our church, we need to be upfront with people about who is courting their membership. This is why we are still seen as a cult by some, and dismissed by others. We are not even true to ourselves.

GC,

There is a large difference between using wisdom in a particular situation and employing lack of faith. Wisdom in a “closed” country would be not verbally offering that you are a Christian when the information is unsolicited. Lack of faith is not admitting it when asked.

Jacob, Jonah and Abraham were, by their deceptions, most definitely exhibiting their lack of faith in God’s power. Each had to face the consequences of their faithless actions.

The instance with Samuel that you cited reminds me of when God told Moses to go back to Egypt and demand from Pharaoh the release of His enslaved children. Each lacked confidence, faith, that God’s power was sufficient for the task so God told Samuel to take a heifer and Moses to take Aaron. Could God have kept Samuel safe on his journey to find David? Of course. Samuel just didn’t have enough faith to believe it at the time. Could God have given Moses the words he needed for Pharaoh? Undoubtedly. Even though he had heard the voice of God speaking to him from the burning bush, Moses allowed fear to hobble his faith.

Are we to second-guess God? Are we omniscient so that we can rightly determine what the hearts of those we are trying to reach are ready to hear? Does spreading the Gospel really need a deceptive scheme?

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32

What is the bait we should disguise the hook with when fishing for men? Could it perhaps be a character –both personal and corporate – that so reflects the image of Christ that no deception is necessary?

[PeacefulBe]

While you are there, PB, let's include the disciples and spostles who knew the authorities would be looking for themt to imprison and even torture and kill them, but they still never went into a city on the DL. Paul went right to the front of the temple. John the Baptist sure wasn't problaming anything Herod and his wife wanted to hear, but he proclaimed it just the same, in public.

I am sorry, it just won't wash. With all evangelistic meetings, we mean to add new members to our church, we need to be upfront with people about who is courting their membership. This is why we are still seen as a cult by some, and dismissed by others. We are not even true to ourselves.

Too true! We've come a long way but still have quite a stretch to go!

[västergötland]

You have no grounds to say it is an invalid argument on that basis. I could just as easily turn that around and say you must prove that God has not given them such instructions. It boils down to the fact that neither you nor I should try to them them what God is telling them. They should be getting their instructions firsthand.

Oh, where to start with this all? Yes, I do think I have grounds, solid grounds, to my argument. Where? you will likely ask. In the fact that Gods government is based upon Love, Grace, Truth, this becourse that is what Gods character is like according to scripture. The shadow government that is based upon deception and "whatever works" is of another kind.

Can you prove God has NOT led pastors to reach people this way? You have completely mistaken my point, and that of the Bible. We are not to tell a lie. There is a very large and distinct difference between telling a half truth, or simply not disclosing everything, and telling a lie. I never advocated lying. If someone asks, tell. If they do not ask, it may not be in GOD'S best interest for us to broadcast some things, even though they are truth.

Are we talking about the same God here? The One who said -you have heard that sex between people who are not married is sin, but I tell you, even planing or dreaming about such sex is sin. The One who said -you have heard that killing another person is a sin, but I tell you that even planing or dreaming about killing another person is a sin. Would this same One draw a line between lying as in telling that which is not true and half lying in purposefully not telling the entire truth in order to decieve?

And notice that this in context is *very, very* far away from 'not telling you are a christian missionary to the Irani secret police'. We are talking about not identifying oneself or ones true purpose when doing mission towards other christians in western europe and USA. The lands of free speach and religion as we are told. You are risking nothing but your reputation by telling people you are trying to reach who you are. And while speaking about bad reputation, what religious group has a worse reputation than the JW? And they dont need to hide who they are to grow. Are we worse of than them?

Jesus hid, as it were, His identity from the men on their way to Emmaus. He did reveal His identity in the end. But why did He not immediately identify Himself to them? What purpose would that serve? Do you question His wisdom?

Jesus, having recently been dead and talking with diciples who had not yet grasped the fact of His resurection might have needed the time to help them understand so they wouldnt be terrified of ghosts as they might have been if He had come directly to them. We know from the time Jesus walked on water that the diciples did believe in ghosts.

I know of a number of people who have become Christians because they were drawn into it WITHOUT REALIZING what they were getting into. If someone had come to them saying he/she was a Christian, they would have turned away. God does not reach everyone by the same methods. Because individual circumstances vary, who are we to tell the one witnessing how to do his/her work? God will give words to say. Samuel was not told to disguise himself. He was simply given an alibi. He was told to say something that was to be true, but was not his true motive. We will not easily win people by telling them that we are trying to catch them--they will run.

Does God work through our deficiensies and faults or despite of them? Paul once wrote,

"And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. "

But he also wrote this

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And the righteous Job said

Lo, mine eye hath seen all [this], mine ear hath heard and understood it. What ye know, [the same] do I know also: I [am] not inferior unto you. Surely I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to reason with God. But ye [are] forgers of lies, ye [are] all physicians of no value. O that ye would altogether hold your peace! and it should be your wisdom. Hear now my reasoning, and hearken to the pleadings of my lips. Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him? Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God? Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye [so] mock him? He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons. Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you?

Color your net brightly with reflective material in clear water and see how many fish will come. : )sh, like people, will not come near if the trap is obvious. Whether it's a net or a hook matters little.

The trap? What is your true purpose here? Remember that God gave all men a free will, and the freedom to excersize it. To trap and decieve and other means to bypass it I cannot think comes from God.

The fact is that the devil doesn't play fair. He has prejudiced the minds of many against God's truths and against those who teach them. Many in the world believe the lies that they have heard regarding the church being a cult. Some do not even know we are Christians. There are some who would come to a meeting just because they heard it was an Adventist meeting. There are probably at least twice as many who would stay away if that fact were known. Then there are those who have no clue who Adventists are. To these, the name may not deter them. Put out your Adventist banner, if you wish, you will reach a certain class of people. God uses others who work differently to reach other classes of people. Let us all work together and recognize that God is not limited to just one style of evangelism.

And what, pray tell, does the devils game honesty have to do with what God and His people are doing? Let the devil cheat and cut corners all he wants (and is allowed to) but you and me, we should follow the LORD.

And while in another circumbstance Id be among the first to say you are right that God is not limmited to just one style of evangelism, I wont agree with you that God should purpose to have evangelism in such a way that it contradicts His play rules.

As for 3ABN, LLBN, and Hope, only God knows what they should be doing, and hopefully they are following His orders to the best of their ability. I do not judge them.

I am proud to be an Adventist. I'm proud of the name. But just because I am not embarrassed about it does not mean it is always prudent to proclaim it. Enough said.

Will it be prudent to proclaim the name of Jesus if you are ever thrown before a court of law for its sake? Or will it be prudent to deny Him to save your own skin, however temporarily that may be?



This post has been edited by västergötland: Nov 2 2006, 11:17 AM

[Green Cochoa]

While you are there, PB, let's include the disciples and spostles who knew the authorities would be looking for themt to imprison and even torture and kill them, but they still never went into a city on the DL. Paul went right to the front of the temple. John the Baptist sure wasn't problaming anything Herod and his wife wanted to hear, but he proclaimed it just the same, in public.

Would you agree that this was God's orders to those people? Just because God led them to take such open and decisive actions does not mean that God leads everyone to do the same thing.

I am sorry, it just won't wash. With all evangelistic meetings, we mean to add new members to our church, we need to be upfront with people about who is courting their membership. This is why we are still seen as a cult by some, and dismissed by others. We are not even true to ourselves.

PB made some very good points. I agree with most of what she said--she wasn't disagreeing much with what I have said. But, PrincessDi, as for being "upfront" with people regarding our identity, tell that to Tyndale and the Waldenses. It pays to know who you are talking to first. Hence, the saying, "Discretion is the better part of valor."

[västergötland]

PB made some very good points. I agree with most of what she said--she wasn't disagreeing much with what I have said. But, PrincessDi, as for being "upfront" with people regarding our identity, tell that to Tyndale and the Waldenses. It pays to know who you are talking to first. Hence, the saying, "Discretion is the better part of valor."

Tyndale and the Valdenses had a death warrant on their heads for their faith and many of them died in flames. Who in the western world risks death for the sake of Jesus name?

[Green Cochoa]

You have brought up some good points which do deserve more clarity.

Would this same One draw a line between lying as in telling that which is not true and half lying in purposefully not telling the entire truth in order to decieve?

For the sake of clarity and truth here, let us understand that "half-truth" does not equate to "half-lie." If I say the cup is half empty, that doesn't mean it is not half full. That I didn't tell you both parts to the equation does not make the first part false. To view this another way, Jesus Himself quoted the 10 Commandments in the New Testament--only He didn't quote them all. Does that make any part of the whole untrue? If I tell you that I am a student, and don't tell you that I am a missionary, a teacher, or any other role I may currently have as well, does that make any part of what I had told you false or necessarily deceptive? Prudence does not mean embarrassment. Just because I don't tell you that I am a missionary does not equate to me being embarrassed of it. Yes, I'm a student. Yes, I'm a teacher. Saying just one of them does not make the other false or embarrassing. It does not mean I'm afraid to tell. It only means that I have told you what seemed most appropriate or applicable to the situation or question.

If telling a partial truth, instead of the whole truth, equates to lying or deception, then we are all hopelessly liars...perhaps for eternity! None of us has all the truth.

And notice that this in context is *very, very* far away from 'not telling you are a christian missionary to the Irani secret police'. We are talking about not identifying oneself or ones true purpose when doing mission towards other christians in western europe and USA. The lands of free speach and religion as we are told.

Well, please excuse me then, for I am not working in those lands you mention, and I AM working toward reaching people in a closed Communist country. Perhaps, to you, none of what I have said applies to this discussion, since you are discussing only a narrowly-defined field.

You are risking nothing but your reputation by telling people you are trying to reach who you are.

I have spoken not for my own honor or pleasure, but out of respect for what God is trying to accomplish on this planet. Were it merely my own life at stake, I should be much less concerned about cloaking my intentions. But God is not honored, nor benefited when we speak brashly without thought and without regard for what will truly attract that individual to Him. It is too easy to simply blurt out who we are and what we are doing. It just doesn't catch everyone's hearts. It is not my honor at stake, it is God's reputation. As a representative of Christ, to bring dishonor upon myself is to bring dishonor upon God. Asian cultures have a good understanding of this principle, as it is embedded within the status system. To bring dishonor upon someone else is to bring dishonor upon yourself, and vice versa. Therefore, my reputation IS God's reputation.

God has spoken through Ellen White that the right arm of our message is the health message. Why? Because people put up their wall of defense to hear about religion; but reach out to them with something that shows you care about them as a person, in a way they can relate to, and you have found a formula for success in sowing seeds of the Gospel as well.

To trap and decieve and other means to bypass it I cannot think comes from God.And what, pray tell, does the devils game honesty have to do with what God and His people are doing? Let the devil cheat and cut corners all he wants (and is allowed to) but you and me, we should follow the LORD.

And why, then, would Jesus use the analogy of "fishing for men?" Have you ever caught a fish without sublety? The devil's game plan has very much to do with this. It is because the devil has poisoned the well of truth with his errors that people have been blinded to the truth. The poison not only injures the people's minds, preventing them from a clear understanding and ability to learn truth, but it also causes them to view the truth as error. Because of the abundance of confusion (and we know God is not the author of confusion), God Himself is forced to present the truth through subtle means sometimes, so that it flies in below the radar of the individual involved, who might otherwise misidentify the truth as falsehood.

The devil does such a good job with deceiving, that the deceived, in most cases, do not know they are deceived. God must bring truth to them without causing their mis-guided "error shields" to be activated.

And while in another circumbstance Id be among the first to say you are right that God is not limmited to just one style of evangelism, I wont agree with you that God should purpose to have evangelism in such a way that it contradicts His play rules. Will it be prudent to proclaim the name of Jesus if you are ever thrown before a court of law for its sake? Or will it be prudent to deny Him to save your own skin, however temporarily that may be?

Again, I was not speaking from any desire to save my skin. Regarding the game rules, Jude is quite clear that some are to be saved by love, some by fear. Hmmm....fear is a negative emotion, isn't it? Why would God use that? But God does bring some to Him through fear. I had a good friend who came to God during the Persian Gulf war, because he was afraid the world was about to end. As he so aptly said of his turnaround, "If this doesn't get your attention, what will?" God leads us to the same place in the end, but our starting points are all different. Not everyone can be lead in the same way to Christ. Praise the Lord that He knows how to reach us!

[awesumtenor]

You have brought up some good points which do deserve more clarity.
For the sake of clarity and truth here, let us understand that "half-truth" does not equate to "half-lie." If I say the cup is half empty, that doesn't mean it is not half full. That I didn't tell you both parts to the equation does not make the first part false. To view this another way, Jesus Himself quoted the 10 Commandments in the New Testament--only He didn't quote them all. Does that make any part of the whole untrue? If I tell you that I am a student, and don't tell you that I am a missionary, a teacher, or any other role I may currently have as well, does that make any part of what I had told you false or necessarily deceptive? Prudence does not mean embarrassment. Just because I don't tell you that I am a missionary does not equate to me being embarrassed of it. Yes, I'm a student. Yes, I'm a teacher. Saying just one of them does not make the other false or embarrassing. It does not mean I'm afraid to tell. It only means that I have told you what seemed most appropriate or applicable to the situation or question.

If telling a partial truth, instead of the whole truth, equates to lying or deception, then we are all hopelessly liars...perhaps for eternity! None of us has all the truth.

Since you, by your own admission, "believe Ellen White":

Those who are controlled by policy rather than by principle are not to be trusted. They will pervert the truth, conceal facts, and construe the words of others to mean that which was never intended. They will employ flattering words, while the poison of asps is under their tongue. He who does not earnestly seek the divine guidance will be deceived by their smooth words and their artful plans.

There are many who would scorn the appellation of policy men, yet who will stoop to concealment, evasion, and even misrepresentation, to accomplish their purposes. He who, in a matter of right and wrong, remains noncommittal that he may retain the friendship of all; he who seeks to secure by evasion of truth what should be won by courage; he who waits for others to take the lead, when he should go forward himself, and then feels at liberty to censure their course,--all these are in God's sight numbered as deceivers. -- EGW, Signs of the Times, Aug 4, 1881

If you do, as you claim, believe her, then the rest of your argument is just so much rationalization.

In His service,
Mr. J

This post has been edited by awesumtenor: Nov 2 2006, 01:14 PM

[västergötland]

You have brought up some good points which do deserve more clarity.

What happened to the scripture references I gave? They were not there to fill out more space you know.

For the sake of clarity and truth here, let us understand that "half-truth" does not equate to "half-lie." If I say the cup is half empty, that doesn't mean it is not half full. That I didn't tell you both parts to the equation does not make the first part false. To view this another way, Jesus Himself quoted the 10 Commandments in the New Testament--only He didn't quote them all. Does that make any part of the whole untrue? If I tell you that I am a student, and don't tell you that I am a missionary, a teacher, or any other role I may currently have as well, does that make any part of what I had told you false or necessarily deceptive? Prudence does not mean embarrassment. Just because I don't tell you that I am a missionary does not equate to me being embarrassed of it. Yes, I'm a student. Yes, I'm a teacher. Saying just one of them does not make the other false or embarrassing. It does not mean I'm afraid to tell. It only means that I have told you what seemed most appropriate or applicable to the situation or question.

If Jesus while speaking about murder where to quote nine of the ten commandments but exclude the one about murder, then we would be talking about the same thing. If you go to your teacher and present yourself as a missionary and a teacher but neglect to mention that you are also his student, then we would be talking about the same thing. If you where to go to the people whom you are a missionary for and tell them about being a student and a teacher but neglect to mention that you are also a missionary, then we would be talking about the same thing. It is not merely about not telling everything there is to know about a subject but about neglecting, willfully, to tell parts relevant to the particular situation one finds oneself in. Next time you get a new class of students in your role as a teacher, present yourself and act as your role as a student or as your role as a missionary and maybe you might start to understand what I am talking about. For your students, your role as a teacher is the relevant one and while you can tell them about the other two aswell they arent as important as you as a teacher.

If telling a partial truth, instead of the whole truth, equates to lying or deception, then we are all hopelessly liars...perhaps for eternity! None of us has all the truth.

As I said above, it is not as much that you dont tell everything as it is willfully suppressing important and relevant information.

Well, please excuse me then, for I am not working in those lands you mention, and I AM working toward reaching people in a closed Communist country. Perhaps, to you, none of what I have said applies to this discussion, since you are discussing only a narrowly-defined field.

If you remember, this did not start with your particular missionary situation but with the TV ministries based in the US. That is why the examples are to be relevant there mainly. We can discuss a secound application to your mission if you give some additional, relevant information to build such a discussion upon. The narrowly defined field you mention just happens to include all the industrialised nations on three continets. But maybe that is narrow since it apparently missed the country you are working in, oh well...

I have spoken not for my own honor or pleasure, but out of respect for what God is trying to accomplish on this planet. Were it merely my own life at stake, I should be much less concerned about cloaking my intentions. But God is not honored, nor benefited when we speak brashly without thought and without regard for what will truly attract that individual to Him. It is too easy to simply blurt out who we are and what we are doing. It just doesn't catch everyone's hearts. It is not my honor at stake, it is God's reputation. As a representative of Christ, to bring dishonor upon myself is to bring dishonor upon God. Asian cultures have a good understanding of this principle, as it is embedded within the status system. To bring dishonor upon someone else is to bring dishonor upon yourself, and vice versa. Therefore, my reputation IS God's reputation.

Here is where I really lost you. I cannot even begin to fathom that you are acctually suggesting that you are defending Gods reputation by lying by omission about yourself, your church and who knows what else. I find this utterly unbelivable. Let me repost one of the passages I had in my last reply, but in easier english.
Job 13:3 But I prefer to argue my case with God All-Powerful--
Job 13:4 you are merely useless doctors, who treat me with lies.
Job 13:5 The wisest thing you can do is to keep quiet
Job 13:6 and listen to my argument.
Job 13:7 Are you telling lies for God
Job 13:8 and not telling the whole truth when you argue his case?
Job 13:9 If he took you to court, could you fool him, just as you fool others?
Job 13:10 If you were secretly unfair, he would correct you,
Job 13:11 and his glorious splendor would make you terrified.
What in all of this is unclear? Or do you disagree with it?

God has spoken through Ellen White that the right arm of our message is the health message. Why? Because people put up their wall of defense to hear about religion; but reach out to them with something that shows you care about them as a person, in a way they can relate to, and you have found a formula for success in sowing seeds of the Gospel as well.

Jesus healed the sick, all who asked Him went away healed. He didnt demand anything in return from them but gave away health as a free gift. He also preached the good message about the kingdom of God. His altar call was "take up your cross and follow me", and He also told wouldbe followers, count the cost before you start the journey so you wont be quiting in the middle and thus humiliated." Jesus wasnt about deception.

And why, then, would Jesus use the analogy of "fishing for men?" Have you ever caught a fish without sublety? The devil's game plan has very much to do with this. It is because the devil has poisoned the well of truth with his errors that people have been blinded to the truth. The poison not only injures the people's minds, preventing them from a clear understanding and ability to learn truth, but it also causes them to view the truth as error. Because of the abundance of confusion (and we know God is not the author of confusion), God Himself is forced to present the truth through subtle means sometimes, so that it flies in below the radar of the individual involved, who might otherwise misidentify the truth as falsehood.

You can never drive out darkness with darkness. But it only takes a very smal candle and the light will be seen a long way. The devils game plan is darkness. Jesus compared His message with a ligth up city on the top of a mountain. It is a light that will be seen for miles around.

The devil does such a good job with deceiving, that the deceived, in most cases, do not know they are deceived. God must bring truth to them without causing their mis-guided "error shields" to be activated.

I was of the impression that it was indeed God who would do the job of dismantleing the error shields. Yours and mine is the job to preach the gospel and care for the sick, Gods is the job to take that preached and acted gospel and bring it to the heart of people. Dont change places, I think you might find those shues a bit to large to fill...

Again, I was not speaking from any desire to save my skin. Regarding the game rules, Jude is quite clear that some are to be saved by love, some by fear. Hmmm....fear is a negative emotion, isn't it? Why would God use that? But God does bring some to Him through fear. I had a good friend who came to God during the Persian Gulf war, because he was afraid the world was about to end. As he so aptly said of his turnaround, "If this doesn't get your attention, what will?" God leads us to the same place in the end, but our starting points are all different. Not everyone can be lead in the same way to Christ. Praise the Lord that He knows how to reach us!

Jude clear that some are to be saved by fear? Eh, no? Where more exactly do you find such a thing?

[PeacefulBe]

Would you agree that this was God's orders to those people? Just because God led them to take such open and decisive actions does not mean that God leads everyone to do the same thing.
PB made some very good points. I agree with most of what she said--she wasn't disagreeing much with what I have said. But, PrincessDi, as for being "upfront" with people regarding our identity, tell that to Tyndale and the Waldenses. It pays to know who you are talking to first. Hence, the saying, "Discretion is the better part of valor."

I believe it would be better to be burned in a cave than to hide our connection, our relationship with Jesus under a bushel.

[Richard Sherwin]

A good example of doing it right is ADRA. ADRA operates in many countries where they are prohibited from overtly preaching Christianity, however there is no doubt in those countries as to who they are because the very first word in their title boldly proclaims it. They don't disguise who they are, they are up front about it. Does it turn some people off? Undoubtedly. However they never have people wondering or thinking they are being deceived.

Another example is my child's academy gymnastic team. They go into a lot of public schools where they perform and give talks about healthful living. They are not allowed to bring religion into their talks but everyone there knows who they are because they proudly point our that they are from Great Lakes ADVENTIST Academy. They don't say Great Lakes Academy, or even Great Lakes Christian Academy. They don't have any need to deceive anyone as to who they are.

Richard

[Green Cochoa]

Those who are controlled by policy rather than by principle are not to be trusted. They will pervert the truth, conceal facts, and construe the words of others to mean that which was never intended. They will employ flattering words, while the poison of asps is under their tongue. He who does not earnestly seek the divine guidance will be deceived by their smooth words and their artful plans.
...

Yes, I totally agree. I've had more dealings with "policy" folk than I'd care to recount. To my viewpoint, politics are diametrically opposed to Christianity...but that's a topic for another day. And, BTW, I wasn't talking about politics in this thread, were you? I'm not sure how this applies. Just because I said that we must be discrete, does not mean I am saying that ALL those who conceal truth do well, nor that any/all forms of concealing truth are necessary. So let's not go there.