Was Linda Innocent? Options

[Lee]

FHB--you are right on in your remarks. I really appreciated them. Thanks for making things so clear and for being so Christ-like about it.
It matters not if you are attacked for what you said because clear-thinking people will see through all the hype on this thread.

[awesumtenor]

FHB--you are right on in your remarks. I really appreciated them. Thanks for making things so clear and for being so Christ-like about it.
It matters not if you are attacked for what you said because clear-thinking people will see through all the hype on this thread.

Can you be any more passive-agressive? Attacking those who differ by couching them in a purported compliment toward one who you happen to agree with? Implying those who differ with FHB are not 'clear thinking'?

Were you so enamored with his being "Christ-like" in your estimation that you lost sight of the mark for yourself?

It's a rhetorical question...mostly.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Johann]

- - -
Linda knew.

She bears responsibility.

She did more than burn the toast.

- fhb

I did once discuss that with Linda. Of course she bears responsibility. But what do you expect of a - like Gailon calls her - a naive and innocent young woman?

Linda's own answer now is, I learned early not to disagree with Dan nor cross his path. So she had to vote with him or the divorce had come a decade earlier.

Can you create a backbone in a person who has been taught that the president is always right? And that her marriage is at stake if she messses into his business?

Mr. Danny Shelton's friends and foes alike will testify that his refusal to let people cross his path is Danny in a nutshell, and even one of the main reasons some of them support him and think nobody else could have established 3ABN. The big question is, How long a robe will you let him have?

This post has been edited by Johann: Dec 30 2006, 01:33 PM

[Panama_Pete]

The point is, she knew.

- fhb

A bigger point is that Linda was stripped of any power or influence to effect change, so it wouldn't matter what she knew.

The ease with which Danny got rid of Linda demonstrates that Linda had absolutely no power or influence with the 3ABN board of directors.

All of the power at 3ABN is invested in one person, Danny Shelton. In addition, it really doesn't matter what the so-called 3ABN board members know, either, because they exercise little power or influence over Mr. Shelton.

[Panama_Pete]

FHB--you are right on in your remarks. I really appreciated them. Thanks for making things so clear and for being so Christ-like about it.
It matters not if you are attacked for what you said because clear-thinking people will see through all the hype on this thread.

And we all appreciate that you appreciate people, because you are appreciated, especially when you appreciate others, who are worthy of appreciation.

[PeacefulBe]

Linda was at 3ABN for 20 years.

She was the VP and privy to all the goings on at 3ABN.

She sat in the board meeting when it was decided that Tommy would stay.

She knew who lived in what housing.

She knew where all the finances were going.

She knew about any internal strife and disagreement.

The point is, she knew.

From all that I have read here at BSDA, all of these statements are well-supported by the facts.

She either agreed with it or she didn't - and until recently it seems that she agreed. To talk about burnt toast (Observer) is to either completely miss the point or an attempt to divert the spot light away from true facts. If you are uncomfortable with these facts it would seem to display a desire for revenge as opposed to discovery of the truth.

What I read in Observer's post was that this thread is not the place to discuss "burnt toast" type failings as they apply to Linda. It is, instead, a thread to discuss if she was innocent or guilty of the charges Danny and others have leveled against her that led to her ouster. At least that is what I deduced from it.

Danny has responded to accusations and attacks on him - something he should have avoided. He has made accusations against Linda - something he should have avoided. BUT, if you are going to try and sell people (be you "sister", Observer, watchbird or any other) that Linda has not spoken against Danny or others at 3ABN then you display an extreme level of naivety.

I have to agree that anyone in Linda's situation would find comfort in unloading her burdens on the sholders of her confidants, but has she gone on worldwide TV and aired her claims? No, not to my knowledge.

Now if you are going to admit that Linda was complict and knwoledegable of those things that transpired while she was there - you might be on the right path to finding some truth. If you are going to attempt to sweep under the rug her involvement or paint her (as was attempted in the Televangelist) as incompetent in her position and unaware of what was happening around her at 3ABN thereby absoving her of her responsibility in a number of the things you accuse Danny of - there can be no truth in you, nor in your claims and accusations.

Some here say that Linda went along with the status quo because she was living the life of an abused woman. I don't have any first-hand knowledge of that. What I have read here indicates that she was aware of things. At some point she, along with Danny, may have to face civil actions that will decide if she, being aware and being a VP, was complicit or responsible for illegal activities.

Linda does bear the responsibility for her votes and actions while she was there. She also bears the responsibility for the informaiton she has provided (in violation of the contract she willingly signed) to those who post here.

While I agree she may bear the responsibility for her votes and actions, I think it is a stretch to say she was in violation of the contract she signed. Are you certain that the information had to come from Linda and not from first hand experience by those posting it? I can't make such a claim.

The delight in the spurious announcement of Danny's stepping down was very indicative of the attitudes of some here - not what those who desire a change of heart reformation would want.

Thank you for qualifying the first part of your statement with "the attitudes of some here". That "delight" saddened me. I was glad to see it was quickly backed away from by most. God's power and a true and total love of Him could resolve every issue if allowed. Falsehood and selfishness, sexual immorality, the whole shebang, would find no home in the truly repentant heart.

Until someone sees the property settlement agreement, the bank accounts of both for the past three years, all titles to property of any kind, pictures, etc., etc. no one here will be satisfied - and most of that documentation will never be made public - because it is private and nobody's business but the holder of such information (yes, Fran, I know you will chime in and say the State has a right , that is a given).

Linda knew.

She bears responsibility.

She did more than burn the toast.

- fhb

If there is financial impropriety at 3abn and the civil courts pursue it further, the private financial records of all concerned will most likely become public. But I'm not an expert in this area so don't quote me on that.

[PeacefulBe]

I did once discuss that with Linda. Of course she bears responsibility. But what do you expect of a - like Gailon calls her - a naive and innocent young woman?

Linda's own answer now is, I learned early not to disagree with Dan nor cross his path. So she had to vote with him or the divorce had come a decade earlier.

Can you create a backbone in a person who has been taught that the president is always right? And that her marriage is at stake if she messses into his business?

Mr. Danny Shelton's friends and foes alike will testify that his refusal to let people cross his path is Danny in a nutshell, and even one of the main reasons some of them support him and think nobody else could have established 3ABN. The big question is, How long a robe will you let him have?

Johann, thank you for this. Unfortunately, ignorance may not be an acceptable defense. For example, a wife who knows her husband is abusing children but doesn't make any attempt to stop it is still responsible for the damage being caused to those children.

Wouldn't an earlier divorce have been preferable to voting against her conscience in some of these matters? Was it fear of repercussions from Danny or fear of losing her position and lifestyle that kept her silent? I would love to know. Anyway, she is out of that dilema now so Praise God!

[Johann]

Johann, thank you for this. Unfortunately, ignorance may not be an acceptable defense. For example, a wife who knows her husband is abusing children but doesn't make any attempt to stop it is still responsible for the damage being caused to those children.

Wouldn't an earlier divorce have been preferable to voting against her conscience in some of these matters? Was it fear of repercussions from Danny or fear of losing her position and lifestyle that kept her silent? I would love to know. Anyway, she is out of that dilema now so Praise God!

If Danny was able to convince Dr. Walt Thomson, the chairman of the board, that there was no damage to any children, why could he not have convinced his wife of the same?

[Clay]

FHB, you are so full of it your eyes must be brown.... and then you have offered some to Lee cause her eyes are the same color....

that is my observation.... and my opinion.... it is good I have no relatives married to either of you all....

[PeacefulBe]

If Danny was able to convince Dr. Walt Thomson, the chairman of the board, that there was no damage to any children, why could he not have convinced his wife of the same?

Yes, Johann, I do agree with you. I still would wonder what the motivation for even Dr. Walt Thompson would be to allow Danny to convince him. Is Danny so powerfully persuasive? Is Dr. Thompson's will so weak that he would not want to verify that what he was being told was the truth? Especially for such a volatile area as allegations of molestation.

Is it that he is willing to allow things to go unchecked so that the ministry will continue?
Is it that he truly believes Danny is telling the truth?
Is it that he is afraid he will be ousted by Danny if he questions what he says?
Is it that he believes that Danny's word and will actually are the will of God as some claim?
Do any of these reasons relieve him of the legal and moral responsibility of his actions?

By the way, my example of the wife knowing about child abuse happening was just that - an example. I wasn't accusing Linda of that. Sorry if I gave that impression.

I do understand somewhat the mentality of the "battered wife". I just question whether it totally applies here. Some things I have read that are attributed to Linda makes it obvious that she was aware of much of the goings on.

I hope that she is realizing now how important it is not to give control of her will to anyone other than God.

I avoided getting involved in the dialogue about the troubles at 3abn that became evident in 2004 because I didn't want to become a party to rumor and gossip. In August, when I was made aware of the possibility that an alleged child molestor was involved with the ministry, I felt I had a duty to check things out and look for the truth.

I believe I have been able to discern some of the truth. I am still on the journey. I am still praying for all involved.

FHB, you are so full of it your eyes must be brown.... and then you have offered some to Lee cause his eyes are the same color....

that is my observation.... and my opinion.... it is good I have no relatives married to either of you all....

Psst, Clay... Lee's a she.

[Clay]

thanks... correction made...

[PeacefulBe]

And we all appreciate that you appreciate people, because you are appreciated, especially when you appreciate others, who are worthy of appreciation.

Pete, I am grateful that you are so appreciative that clear-thinking people will be able to see through the hype posted in this thread. We usually are able to, aren't we.

From The Free Dictionary:

Hype:
1. Excessive publicity and the ensuing commotion: the hype surrounding the murder trial.
2. Exaggerated or extravagant claims made especially in advertising or promotional material: "It is pure hype, a gigantic PR job" Saturday Review.
3. An advertising or promotional ploy: "Some restaurant owners in town are cooking up a $75,000 hype to promote New York as 'Restaurant City, U.S.A.'" New York.
4. Something deliberately misleading; a deception: "[He] says that there isn't any energy crisis at all, that it's all a hype, to maintain outrageous profits for the oil companies" Joel Oppenheimer.
tr.v. hyped, hyp·ing, hypes
To publicize or promote, especially by extravagant, inflated, or misleading claims: hyped the new book by sending its author on a promotional tour.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lee, perhaps you can post some quotes from this thread that you believe to be "hype" and then state your reasons why you believe they qualify.
Thanks,
PB

[Observer]

Re: "The fundamental issue is: Did Linda give Danny Biblical grounds to divorce her? That is the issue. It is not whether or not she burned his toast one morning, or even six mornings."

Well, it appears that the post in which I made the above comment has attracted some attention and response.

Look carefully at the sentence that I quote above. My post was clearly devoted to the issue of Biblical grounds for a divorce. It did not attempt to address any other issue, of which there are many.

One of the issues that it did not address was the issue of Linda's personal responsibility, as a result of her being a corporate officer of 3-ABN. I am personally aware of the validity of such questions. I am a corporate officer, and member of the Board of a local, non-SDA, organization. I am aware of my personal responsibility for the manner in which I conduct business for the organization, and in regard to my personal votes in meetings of the Board. It is clear that valid questions may be raised in regard to the culpability of Linda in connection with her duties as Vice President.

We who advise Linda are aware of that. So, is Linda. We are also aware that certain people have stated that if there are attempts to "take down" 3-ABN in regard to certain mismanagement issues, that Linda will fall along with the others. Some of us who recognize the issues here, also believe that such comments have been made in an attempt to scare Linda and her supporters into keeping silent. But, if true in some cases, I do not say that it true in all cases.

I will point out to you that if attempts are made in any kind of a civil proceeding to bring Linda down along with the rest, it cannot automatically be assumed that such will happen. I am one of those who believe that Linda has several good defenses. If so, public discussion is not the place to discuss those. Those will need to come out at that proper time in any civil investigation that takes place.

Folks, hold on to your hats. The information is not all in, and public, yet. The longer this goes, the more that will likely be made pubic. Make your judgments when all is out in the open.

[fallible humanbe...]

I did once discuss that with Linda. Of course she bears responsibility. But what do you expect of a - like Gailon calls her - a naive and innocent young woman?

I am sorry, I, nor many others will never buy this excuse.

Linda's own answer now is, I learned early not to disagree with Dan nor cross his path. So she had to vote with him or the divorce had come a decade earlier.

An easy way out of responsibility. It is always easy to put the blame on someone else when your responsibility is brought to light. IF she was the woman of integrity you claim - and it is obvious that she is a woman of strong personality and drive - then if she felt it is wrong she should have stood up to it and denied herself the monetary benefits and various perks over the years. I carry around in my wallet the following poem in my wallet:

They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

This is a variation on the supposed original poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984).

Linda can not hide behind the claims that she has because they are after the fact. There are many who have stood up in the midst of the fire - husband of the year (who claims to still be employeed at 3ABN) continues to work there while posting his concerns and claims here. While that isn't quite the same it is impossible for a rational individual to look at what Linda gained and believe that she didn't willingly take part in all the "evils" that took place over the life of 3ABN. I already hear all the arguments that will arise - but Linda evidenced herself to be a woman of strength and chutzpa who wouldn't back down from people - this I have as first hand testament from a few individuals who knew her well, worked with her (and not at 3ABN).

Can you create a backbone in a person who has been taught that the president is always right? And that her marriage is at stake if she messses into his business?

I can not accept this picture of Linda. It is contray to even what has been described to me by some of those close to her.

The point of my posts in this thread are that, here could balance occur. But what has been evidenced is a full force effort to remove any responsibility from Linda that should rightfully fall at her feet. To have credibility Linda and those who support her here would admit that the point I made in my previous post are indeed accurate and there is much that she need atone for. Then present your facts that she was "shafted" in the marriage settlement. I can even accept that she and those close to her feel she should have been treated more fairly - and maybe she should have. But until those with the accusations and claims can show that she received less than she should have, and was essentially kicked to the curb financially, the claims will only hold as much weight as the digital paper they are printed on.

Are there two sides to every story? Here there seems to be only one - everything we think Danny has done wrong in the past fifty years. Now, since he is human I am sure we can collect a number of things he did wrong - but what about Linda . . . come on, do you really expect people to believe that she enjoyed the perks of being the co-founder of 3ABN for all those years and couldn't muster the where-with-all to speak up? You claim she was intimated by Danny, what about the board? Could she not find a member there to listen to her - or has 3ABN from its inception been headed up by evil men with anything but the Lord's work at heart? You can't really expect us to believe that - and if you do . . . well, that is naive.

- fhb

FHB, you are so full of it your eyes must be brown.... and then you have offered some to Lee cause her eyes are the same color....

that is my observation.... and my opinion.... it is good I have no relatives married to either of you all....

Nope, just checked, they are green. Will go ask the neighbors for first hand clarification if that will help.

- fhb

[PeacefulBe]

This whole topic is getting old. Too many accusations and not enough facts. Since everyone is so down on Danny does that mean that Linda is innocent of doing any wrong? She stayed for 20 years, I am sorry she had to know some of what was going on. She had perks. Maybe she had an affair maybe not, I don't know and neither does anybody else except Linda and the Dr. If we don't like what is happening with 3ABN don't support it. Unless there is a legal issue there is really nothing any one can do and writing about it on a forum isn't going to change anything. If it was something would have happened by now. If Tommy is guilty than the athorities need to be involved. The conference is not going to do anything by what is written here.

I do agree Linda was treated unfairly, looking in, but again none of us know everything that took place. We were not in her home when she was alone with Danny, we were not on the phone with her and the Dr. I think she made some poor choices, like the pregnancy test....maybe if everyone went on with their life Linda could get on with her's????

From what I have read, Danny thinks Linda is behind all of these rumors. Maybe if they stopped unless there is strong evidence, Linda could move on with what she wants to do, her ministry. Some of this talk is so ridiculous, who cares where Linda lives, if she can afford it who am I? So what if she has a pool, so does Danny. Why should she have any less than him if they built their home together for 20 years?

Just some thoughts I had floating around....

From what I can gather, the topic of this thread is broadly stated in Uncle Sam's opening statement.