Gaj's Support Of 3-abn Options

[Observer]

In a post made earlier I stated that GAJ had been responsible for raising large gifts to 3-ABN from himself and others. In additions, I stated that he had been responsible for the distribution of a large number of the Ten Commandment book.

I was challenged on this. I stated that I would reply. Here it is. I will place a "GM" in front of my statements, a "GAJ" in front of Mr. Joy's statements, and a "Bystander" in front of his, as he is the one who challenged me:

Bystander: "Greg, normally you are careful about what you say and how you say it. This is the exception. I have made calls to verify what you have said. The records show that he has given a very small amount twice. I won't be as nasty as he and post the amount but "large sums of Money" it is not."

GAJ: "Answer: We just totaled the 2006 gifts to 3ABN in this household and they exceed $2,000.00 up to August 2006, at which time we ceased contributions."

GM: Mr. Joy then goes on to say that he does not have the figures for other relatives. This in not the "large" gift that I had in mind. My statement included other relatives. As Mr. Joy is unable to give exact figures, I will have to leave the contribution figure for 2006 at $2,000.00 Plus. In any case, that is likely to be a larger figure than most people give. I suspect that the majority of people give much less in a year to 3-ABN than $2,000. But, I may be wrong. I am quite willing for Bystander to tell us differently.


GAJ: "In Danny's defense, it has been better than ten years since I have written a personal check. Therefore, I guess . . . he would find nothing under my name in his records anywhere. I would post copies of the checks over on save3abn.com, but they just simply don't exist!!! You know how hard it is to prove the negative, ie: that an affair between Arild and Linda never happened? But we seem to always get the job done!!!"

Bystander: "Next you say he was responsible for the distribution.....In what way. That statement sounds as if he was a distribution manager for 3abn. The only distributing that Gailon did might have been passing out some that he or his church had ordered. You made your statement in a way that appears he had some important job in helping to get out millions of books. He didn't."

GAJ: "Answer: As I have stated before, in late April and early May, 2006, myself and a former LE Director lead a campaign to distribute over 6000 books entitled Ten Commandments Twice Removed by Danny Lee Shelton and Shelley Quinn throughout our territory. We had a door to door team of about a dozen that completed the entire project about a week after the Ten Commandments Weekend as they were delivered a bit late. "


GAJ: "By the way, Illinois Conference President and 3ABN Director, Pastor Kenneth Denzlow, one of the parties intending to sue me according to Danny Lee Shelton, gave a glowing report regarding 3ABN at the Conference Presidents meeting in Georgia and gave my name another ten minutes of fame, or was it infamy, while he was at it. This while 57 other conference presidents sat amazed and rushed back to their rooms to look up save3ABN.com... [sic.] what a witness list, hey??? Chock up another 57 visits. Thank-you Pastor Denzlow... [sic.] "

GM: As should be obvious, I have extracted the above from a longer message that GAJ has sent to me. I included the parts that directly responded to the issues raised by Bystander, and the last comment simply for interest. If this does not satisfy, I simply do not have anything better. So, reach your own conclusions. In any case I do not believe that it can be fairly stated that GAJ intends to destroy 3-ABN. Rather, I see him as a conservative SDA who supports the principles under which 3-ABN was founded, but wants a change in governance.

[ex3ABNemployee]

In a post made earlier I stated that GAJ had been responsible for raising large gifts to 3-ABN from himself and others. In additions, I stated that he had been responsible for the distribution of a large number of the Ten Commandment book.

I was challenged on this. I stated that I would reply. Here it is. I will place a "GM" in front of my statements, a "GAJ" in front of Mr. Joy's statements, and a "Bystander" in front of his, as he is the one who challenged me:

Bystander: "Greg, normally you are careful about what you say and how you say it. This is the exception. I have made calls to verify what you have said. The records show that he has given a very small amount twice. I won't be as nasty as he and post the amount but "large sums of Money" it is not."

GAJ: "Answer: We just totaled the 2006 gifts to 3ABN in this household and they exceed $2,000.00 up to August 2006, at which time we ceased contributions."

So, does 3ABN feel that $2000 is just not enough? According to Bystander, someone at 3ABN said he gave a "very small amount twice." Maybe we should tell potential donors that if they only have $2000 or less, don't send it in. If what Bystander says is true (and he seems to be very confident that it is), it appears to be more of a nuisance to them than a help.

GAJ: "By the way, Illinois Conference President and 3ABN Director, Pastor Kenneth Denzlow, one of the parties intending to sue me according to Danny Lee Shelton, gave a glowing report regarding 3ABN at the Conference Presidents meeting in Georgia and gave my name another ten minutes of fame, or was it infamy, while he was at it. This while 57 other conference presidents sat amazed and rushed back to their rooms to look up save3ABN.com... [sic.] what a witness list, hey??? Chock up another 57 visits. Thank-you Pastor Denzlow... [sic.] "

From what I hear, this is only the beginning of the publicity that save3abn.com is going to get. At present, over 17000 have already checked it out. It's opening a lot of folks' eyes in our area, I can tell you that. People are learning the truth, and they're not liking it.

[Noahswife]

Observer~

Thank you once again for your attention to detail and follow through.

Both are often sorely needed at times in these posts.

As I am sure you saw, last night we saw on another thread words (Johanns) taken out of context and twisted and repeated as fact with no admission of the error when challenged; even when initially given benefit of the doubt.

Speaking plainly and without rancor is appreciated by those of us reading these posts.

It speaks volumes.

nw

This post has been edited by Noahswife: Feb 10 2007, 07:20 PM

[Fran]

Observer;

Just some personal thoughts about Independent Ministries and donors in general.

"Large" is subjective. Large to me may be tiny to someone else.

Bystander:

"Greg, normally you are careful about what you say and how you say it. This is the exception. I have made calls to verify what you have said. The records show that he has given a very small amount twice. I won't be as nasty as he and post the amount but "large sums of Money" it is not."

Fran:

I wonder how many people give to 3ABN through the church. Many do! The money is sent to the conference to be forwarded to 3ABN.

I'm pretty sure that some churches send the money directly to 3ABN. Do the donations come with names? They should, but I know for a fact, they don't. Why? Because the church gives the tax records to the donor; sending names to 3ABN could cause duplicate tax receipts.

If the donor gives through their church, 3ABN has no idea who the funds came from! In fact, the donations could go straight to Danny, since he is there.

Who certifies this is posted properly?
Do these donations get mailed to 3ABN, or has 3ABN ever flown out to pick up these donations? If they do, are the offerings enough to pay for the use of the jet?
Do churches give you the offerings in cash or check?
Are they receipted back to the church?
My church never received receipts for donations sent to 3ABN. That is why I ask.

Also, many donors use business checks or electronic transfers for their donations. The donation would fall under the business name for each one to have a receipt for their business.

3ABN, I am guessing, sometimes makes mistakes when spelling peoples names. That could happen even at 3ABN. This would be a serious mistake if Danny has someone introduced to him as a large contributor and Danny goes to look but can't find that name in their database because it was misspelled. This could cause the donor not to donate anymore if this person is accused of not giving a penny and/or was called a liar. Has that ever happened?

#1. Bystander has no right to post on the internet something that is supposed to be confidential. Period. That trust has been broken.

#2. Turn “abouts” fair play. I would like to hear, on the internet, how much Bystander gave in direct donations in 2006 as donations to 3ABN. We don't count hours given by salaried employees. Those do not count. Not even those hours given on the Sabbath. If you are an hourly paid employee, you can count those hours because you never got paid for those hours, until forced to by the law.

So let's be fair. We are talking about $ contributions. Don't count tithe you give. That is supposed to be given to the church. That is the way the Seventh-day Adventist in good standing do. I assume Danny is a member in good standing and returns his tithe to the church to go to the conference. A leader of the church would do that. Do you Bystander?

#3 Bystanders has no idea about how many books people gave out, or were used to burn in the fire place. His interest in the books ended once the books got shipped. How many books anyone gave out or did not give out, is none of anybodies business! All he needed to know was how many books went out so he could get his income increase. You did declare that on your personal taxes in 2006, right?

Now I’m off my soap box. Carry on. Duck and run.

[Daryl Fawcett]

Can SDA Churches forward donations to a non-SDA entity, which 3ABN is, without running into problems with the government?

[Skyhook]

I heard Danny just recently tell the viewing audience that they could send money for support of another ministry directly to 3abn and he would forward it to the intended party. (The address of the other ministry was posted right on the screen)Interesting statement.

This post has been edited by Skyhook: Feb 9 2007, 07:41 PM

[inga]

Can SDA Churches forward donations to a non-SDA entity, which 3ABN is, without running into problems with the government?

That might depend on the constituency. I'm not an accountant, but I believe that non-profit organizations may transfer funds to another non-pofit registered in a similar manner. So it is likely that a local church could transfer money to 3ABN.

I heard Danny just recently tell the viewing audience that they could sent money for support of another ministry directly to 3abn and he would forward it to the intended party. Interesting concept.

Ah, yes, indeed!
How would the donors know where their money actually went?

In the local church, by contrast, we know where the money goes because the treasurer is accountable to the board each month, and we see the reports.

Interesting concept, indeed.

[Observer]

Can SDA Churches forward donations to a non-SDA entity, which 3ABN is, without running into problems with the government?

Yes.

[Daryl Fawcett]

Is it only because 3ABN is also a registered charity?

In other words, if 3ABN had not been a registered charity, could the local SDA Church still have forwarded the donations?

[PeacefulBe]

So, does 3ABN feel that $2000 is just not enough? According to Bystander, someone at 3ABN said he gave a "very small amount twice." Maybe we should tell potential donors that if they only have $2000 or less, don't send it in. If what Bystander says is true (and he seems to be very confident that it is), it appears to be more of a nuisance to them than a help.
From what I hear, this is only the beginning of the publicity that save3abn.com is going to get. At present, over 17000 have already checked it out. It's opening a lot of folks' eyes in our area, I can tell you that. People are learning the truth, and they're not liking it.

Thanks for this information, Duane. It's good to know that the truth is getting good exposure.

[Observer]

Is it only because 3ABN is also a registered charity?

In other words, if 3ABN had not been a registered charity, could the local SDA Church still have forwarded the donations?

Yes, with probably some exceptions.

[Ozzie]

Can SDA Churches forward donations to a non-SDA entity, which 3ABN is, without running into problems with the government?

In NNSW Conference of SPD, money was forwarded to Asian Aid for some time by the local church, till it was stopped at one point, by the Conferecne treasurer.

Locally, where we live now, offerings for Asian Aid are handled by the local Church. I'm just glad that I'm not the chruch treasurer this time, handling it.

So, it may be feasible in US and Canada, that this could happen. However, I am not familiar with the relevant legal issues associated with such offerings there.

[Bystander]

#1. Bystander has no right to post on the internet something that is supposed to be confidential. Period. That trust has been broken.

Gailon is the one that made it public by saying he has raised and give "large" amount of monies to 3abn. The receipts issued in his name from the accounting dept show a small amount. If you will carefully read his whole post, which was posted through observer, he says he has no receipts to prove the larger amount given. Why not, I have no idea


#2. Turn “abouts” fair play. I would like to hear, on the internet, how much Bystander gave in direct donations in 2006 as donations to 3ABN. We don't count hours given by salaried employees. Those do not count. Not even those hours given on the Sabbath. If you are an hourly paid employee, you can count those hours because you never got paid for those hours, until forced to by the law.

[b] I have never "bragged" on the internet how much I had given or how much work I have done to help 3abn. Gailon did. That was the only reason it was brought up and I think you know that. Any statement that comes from 3 abn, Gailon says he tries to verify it and then he posts whatever he thinks he found. Can 3abn not have the rights? He made a big statement about money, so it only makes sense to check it out.


#3 Bystanders has no idea about how many books people gave out, or were used to burn in the fire place. His interest in the books ended once the books got shipped. How many books anyone gave out or did not give out, is none of anybodies business! All he needed to know was how many books went out so he could get his income increase. You did declare that on your personal taxes in 2006, right?

I don't really know what you are saying about the books. Greg stated it as gailon was in charge of the books in general. He wasn't. He might have been in his own church with what they ordered and past out, but that wasn't my point.

[/b] Fran, you seem to have an obvious accounting background. That is why it never ceases to amaze me that you seem to think Danny/3abn can do anything they want financially and no one is the wiser. The question you ask about did he declare books in 2006 is ludicrous. How could he not?
If he wanted to be dishonest, (which he doesn't) he couldn't be with the publicity that the book has gotten. If a book contract with a publisher is even talked about, there are attorney's on both sides that go over everything with a fine tooth comb and they draw up the contracts for their clients. You act like he and 3abn are off in their own little world without accountability to anyone. Please, every venture that is undertaken, every book that's written, every bit of finances are taken care of by accountants, attorneys, auditors, ect ect. And, all of those people lay their credibility on the line if they do anything wrong... There are 7 in house full time finance workers and accountants + the chief financial officer who has an impressive "pedigree." 3abn and everything associated with it, is accountable to the financial offices, the auditors, the government, attorneys, the board and the thousands of supporters. To have a world wide ministry that takes approx 17 million a year to keep it going, and employ 200 people worldwide, with regulations being even more stringent for a tax free, organization, it would be ludicrous for anyone to think they can do whatever with no accountability.

I also believe it was you (maybe not) who had mentioned their "tax" problems. Insinuating that came from wrong practices at 3abn. The truth is, the town of thompsonville was trying to charge taxes for the church school and the property it sits on. Now Not one church school in Illinois is required to pay tax and certainly not in the county where 3abn is located. The same holds true for certain ministry buildings that they wanted to tax. For a change, 3abn had support from other denominations because they knew if the county could win this battle, it was just a matter of time before their ministries, schools, church camps ect would start being taxed. Of course it was all complicated and time consuming and a bunch of mumbo jumbo as court cases always are, but that, was the bottom line.

Your question, would a pick up be worth the jet....Let me get something straight. For approx 15 years, 3abn people drove the 2 hours to st louis and flew commercial. Because of flight schedules, delays, ect they would end up having to be gone from friday to sunday for a couple of sabbath services. Not to mention the complications that came after 911. After 15 years of traveling almost every weekend not to mention out of the US, those that did most of the traveling became "travel weary, physically and mentally. Those of you that travel commercially a lot know what I mean. Now that 3abn uses a small jet, they can actually do more traveling, rally's, preaching. Why? because now what used to take 3 days can, a lot of times, be done all in one day. They can even go to one state, if need be, for a friday night service, leave early the next morning and go across the country if necessary to do 2 or 3 sabbath services. More importantly, they can do it without the traffic, stress, delays, cancellations, searches and everything else that comes with commercial travel. Most times they can leave on Sabbath morning and be back by sat evening. Now, having said all of that, the truth is, 3abn does not pay for the"lease" of the plane. Right "lease". They don't own it. One or 2 supportors pay the cost. So lets lay that issue to bed.



Now I’m off my soap box. Carry on. Duck and run.
[/quote]

[Fran]

Bystander;

Thank you for your response. I will reply tomorrow. I haven't been to bed as yet.

By the way your spelling and grammar have greatly improved. I do appreciate your reply.

[Observer]

Greg stated it as gailon was in charge of the books in general. He wasn't. He might have been in his own church with what they ordered and past out, but that wasn't my point.

If that is what you thought I had said, O.K. That is what you thought. I doubt that very many people reading my post understood it in the same way you seem to have understood it. In any case, there are more important issues. At least now people know--I think.