The Judgment Options

[PeacefulBe]

I believe that attacking another individual's relationship with God is never acceptable behavior no matter how different their opinion may be than your own. In my opinion doing so dressed in the armor of anonymity that this forum provides you is the behavior of a coward.

nw
Nicely put nw. Welcome watchman and vanburton. The only thing I could add would be that it is not right to attack another individuals relationship with God...UNLESS... It is Danny Shelton and many other 3abn personal. You will find here, That is the exception to the rule..Oh and one more thing...They will tell you repeatedly to go back and read the threads from the beginning so you will be intelligent enough to comment on these issues.

Hi Bystander,
I understand how you might feel sensitive to the point of making your somewhat mean-spirited remark above but it is sad that you would feel the need to use it on newbies.

vanburton pointed out last month some wonderful information in EGW's writings about our duty to reprove sin. I will post those paragraphs here for Watchman to read so she will see why some of us have a burden to reveal the truth about certain matters.

Duty to Reprove Sin

I have been shown that God here illustrates how He regards sin among those who profess to be

His commandment-keeping people. Those whom He has specially honored with witnessing the

remarkable exhibitions of His power, as did ancient Israel, and who will even then venture

to disregard His express directions, will be subjects of His wrath. He would teach His

people that disobedience and sin are exceedingly offensive to Him and are not to be lightly

regarded. He shows us that when His people are found in sin they should at once take decided

measures to put that sin from them, that His frown may not rest upon them all. But if the

sins of the people are passed over by those in responsible positions, His frown will be upon

them, and the people of God, as a body, will be held responsible for those sins. In His

dealings with His people in the past the Lord shows the necessity of purifying the church

from wrongs. One sinner may diffuse darkness that will exclude the light of God from the

entire congregation. When the people realize that darkness is settling upon them, and they

do not know the cause, they should seek God earnestly, in great humility and self-abasement,

until the wrongs which grieve His Spirit are searched out and put away. {3T 265.1}

The prejudice which has arisen against us because we have reproved the wrongs that God has

shown me existed, and the cry that has been raised of harshness and severity, are unjust.

God bids us speak, and we will not be silent. If wrongs are apparent among His people, and

if the servants of God pass on indifferent to them, they virtually sustain and justify the

sinner, and are alike guilty and will just as surely receive the displeasure of God; for

they will be made responsible for the sins of the guilty. In vision I have been pointed to

many instances where the displeasure of God has been incurred by a neglect on the part of

His servants to deal with the wrongs and sins existing among them. Those who have excused

these wrongs have been thought by the people to be very amiable and lovely in disposition,

simply because they shunned to discharge a plain Scriptural duty. The task was not agreeable

to their feelings; therefore they avoided it. {3T 265.2}

The spirit of hatred which has existed with some because the wrongs among God's people have

been reproved has brought blindness and a fearful deception upon their own souls, making it

impossible for them to discriminate between right and wrong. They have put out their own

spiritual eyesight. They may witness wrongs, but they do not feel as did Joshua and humble

themselves because the danger of souls is felt by them. {3T 266.1}

The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of

souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the

side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God.

Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and

forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel

most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people. This is forcibly set forth by the

prophet's illustration of the last work under the figure of the men each having a slaughter

weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by

his side. "And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst

of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all

the abominations that be done in the midst thereof." {3T 266.2}

Who are standing in the counsel of God at this time? Is it those who virtually excuse wrongs

among the professed people of God and who murmur in their hearts, if not openly, against

those who would reprove sin? Is it those who take their stand against them and sympathize

with those who commit wrong? No, indeed! Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in

oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in

Zion, they will never receive the mark of God's sealing approval. They will fall in the

general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter

weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in

them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those

"that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done" in the church. Their love for

purity and the honor and glory of God is such, and they have so clear a view of the

exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and

crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel. {3T 267.1}

But the general slaughter of all those who do not thus see the wide contrast between sin and

righteousness, and do not feel as those do who stand in the counsel of God and receive the

mark, is described in the order to the five men with slaughter weapons: "Go ye after him

through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: slay utterly old

and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom

is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary." {3T 267.2}

This post has been edited by Clay: Feb 10 2007, 08:36 PM

[Bystander]

I seriously doubt that she meant to trash people all over the internet

Eg is the one who said to never ever gossip about another period. She goes on to say you can't know what's true if you didn't see it with your own eyes.

edited for content....

This post has been edited by Clay: Feb 10 2007, 08:37 PM

[erik]

I believe that attacking another individual's relationship with God is never acceptable behavior no matter how different their opinion may be than your own. In my opinion doing so dressed in the armor of anonymity that this forum provides you is the behavior of a coward.

nw
Nicely put nw. Welcome watchman and vanburton. The only thing I could add would be that it is not right to attack another individuals relationship with God...UNLESS... It is Danny Shelton and many other 3abn personal. You will find here, That is the exception to the rule..Oh and one more thing...They will tell you repeatedly to go back and read the threads from the beginning so you will be intelligent enough to comment on these issues.

Bystander


A few yes or no questions for you?


if you care to answer them.

1. Is it attacking or building up a persons relationship with God, to look the other way if they are in open sin? Yes or no.


2. Is it building up of ones relationship with God to us lawyers to settle disputes with others believers? yes or no.



Erik




2.

I seriously doubt that she meant to trash people all over the internet

Eg is the one who said to never ever gossip about another period. She goes on to say you can't know what's true if you didn't see it with your own eyes.

how about provide the cites for your qoutes, please?


erik

[Ralph]

Watchman, if you've not done so I would encourage you to wade through the pinned areas as well as spending a few days simply reading the topics here before you jump into the deep end of the pool. Sharks do abound

Richard

I agree, Richard. It is an excellent idea to read the pinned articles first. Probably what has helped me steer my way through muddied waters was to go back and read The Televangelist (Just click the name and it will take you to the article.) I first read it on May 20, 2005. The first time I read it, I found it to be an interesting fable, but over the months, as more pieces of information come in, I find that it Jorgen VanBraun's article very close to reality.

[husbandoftheyear]

Eg is the one who said to never ever gossip about another period. She goes on to say you can't know what's true if you didn't see it with your own eyes.

Agreed. But the way I understand your posts, you only receive information from others. By your own admittance, BTW.

[PeacefulBe]

I seriously doubt that she meant to trash people all over the internet

Eg is the one who said to never ever gossip about another period. She goes on to say you can't know what's true if you didn't see it with your own eyes.

edited for content....

Bystander, can you tell me how working to bring out truth is "trash"ing people all over the internet?

What you refer to as gossip is not what I find here. There are people here who have seen it with their own eyes - past and present employees of 3abn such as sister, paper tigers, husbandoftheyear and panama_pete for example. There are also the statements/testimonies of the alleged victims of pastoral sexual abuse. Two or three witnesses is what the Bible tells us is needed. We have that.

In Sister White's statements I find a clear message that sin is to be dealt with or else we share in the punishment.

[princessdi]

Now see everyone was being so nice, until Bystnader ruined it....quoti.ng scriptures?.....Ye shall know them by their fruits..............tsk, tsk, tsk, Bystander........Everyone else, Good job!

BTW, Welcome Watchman and Vanburton!!! I hope you will both stay and check out the rest of our site. The forums, and particularly Live Chat and game arcade!

[Watchman]

The real point of the scriptures which I quoted have been overlooked. But then, I should not be surprised. 1 Cor. 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. " I have not come on this site to enter into clever debates or wordplays. Rather, the character of God and worth of souls is my concern. I have been reading these posts for weeks. The reason I do not know who is right or wrong is because I am not God or the judge. One only need to consider God's people from Biblical times to realize that nothing has changed that much. However, the issue here is the BROADCASTING ALL OVER THE INTERNATIONAL INTERNET OF THIS INFORMATION. Two wrongs do not make one right. And even if people are right, as someone once said-"often when people are in the right they sin the most. " It is fine to quote Ellen White. But she would NOT endorse what is taking place here. As Jesus said to the woman taken in adultery, John 8:7 "he that is without sin among you let him first cast a stone." How much time are you spending in fasting and prayer over this? I have been. The words we speak exert a powerful influence. Matt 18:6,7 "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh." Do you have any idea of the baleful influence this site has on people outside of the faith reading this for the first time? Or on those weak in the faith and struggling along? Do you REALLY want on your conscience the loss of their eternal life? I would not want to answer to God for that. Rebuking perceived sin is one thing, SPREADING THIS TYPE OF THING LIKE WILDFIRE IN THE PUBLIC FORUM is not pleasing or helping God. Is He desperate? To explain further. God does not need our money. We give to His cause because it is a privilege to be co-workers with Him. It is really a test of our selfish natures. All the gold and silver are His, with the cattle on a thousand hills. Can anyone actually think God cannot finish the work without their money? Ludicrous. Likewise, God does NOT NEED HELP in solving the 3abn dilemma. He is the fountain of wisdom. What is going on here, apparently unknowingly to the folks in this forum is a test of everyone's character, not just the 3abn folks. Would you believe that people are already leaving the Adventist faith and being turned away from joining it, by your website? A poem by Will Carlton to ponder. BOYS FLYING KITES HAUL IN THEIR WHITE WINGED BIRDS
BUT YOU CAN'T DO THAT WHEN YOU'RE FLYING WORDS
CAREFUL WITH FIRE IS GOOD ADVICE WE KNOW
CAREFUL WITH WORDS IS TEN TIMES DOUBLY SO
THOUGHTS UNEXPRESSED MAY SOMETIMES FALL BACK DEAD
BUT ONLY GOD CAN KILL THEM ONCE THEY'RE SAID
God be with you is my prayer for the influence you are casting for eternity on this website.


This post has been edited by Watchman: Feb 11 2007, 02:52 AM

[wwjd]

Bystander, can you tell me how working to bring out truth is "trash"ing people all over the internet?

What you refer to as gossip is not what I find here. There are people here who have seen it with their own eyes - past and present employees of 3abn such as sister, paper tigers, husbandoftheyear and panama_pete for example. There are also the statements/testimonies of the alleged victims of pastoral sexual abuse. Two or three witnesses is what the Bible tells us is needed. We have that.

In Sister White's statements I find a clear message that sin is to be dealt with or else we share in the punishment.

I would like to answer this, If bystander chooses to answer at a later time, he can....
So you are saying that hoty, paper tigers, pete, saw with their own eyes...what? Danny embezzling funds? the financial dept doctoring books? that he was seeing Brandi on the side? they saw him doing anything illegal? They saw him being abusive to Linda? Those are most of the allegations I can think of on Danny, so, what did they see? This is the problem. They might not like him or like the way he handled something but they didn't like Linda either, maybe more so. That does not give them the privilege to say they "saw" these accusations taking place and it doesn not give you or anyone else the right to say they were witnesses to anything when they weren't. Maybe I should say they were not witnesses to anything relevant to these accusations.
While I am talking I will give you my opinion on Danny. The worst fault that Danny had was giving his exwife her way constantly. He built her up constantly, he bragged on her constantly to the point of making some gag, and he waited on her all the time. Those were faults that bothered a lot of people because they felt that she more than took advantage of it and it contributed to an ego problem. just my opinion

[Green Cochoa]

[SNIP
I have been reading these posts for weeks. The reason I do not know who is right or wrong is because I am not God or the judge. One only need to consider God's people from Biblical times to realize that nothing has changed that much. However, the issue here is the BROADCASTING ALL OVER THE INTERNATIONAL INTERNET OF THIS INFORMATION. Two wrongs do not make one right. And even if people are right, as someone once said-"often when people are in the right they sin the most. " It is fine to quote Ellen White. But she would NOT endorse what is taking place here. As Jesus said to the woman taken in adultery, John 8:7 "he that is without sin among you let him first cast a stone." How much time are you spending in fasting and prayer over this? I have been. [SNIP]

With all due respect, Watchman, you have just touched on something which causes me to speak. I am a witness to a particular situation relevant to such a call for fasting and prayer as you have asked for here. The call was sent out to a number of people, and found its way to 3ABN as well. Apparently, DS did not appreciate the call for fasting and prayer, as it accompanied the idea that 3ABN was experiencing difficulties and going through some changes. In response, DS threatened legal action against the sender of that call to prayer message. May such not become your experience as well.

Of course, Danny has often broadcasted his gaffes on INTERNATIONAL TELEVISION AND INTERNET, which I would estimate to have at least ten thousand times as much exposure as does this website. On the other hand, Danny has been advertising this website, too, so he has promoted its exposure a little.

[wwjd]

I agree, Richard. It is an excellent idea to read the pinned articles first. Probably what has helped me steer my way through muddied waters was to go back and read The Televangelist (Just click the name and it will take you to the article.) I first read it on May 20, 2005. The first time I read it, I found it to be an interesting fable, but over the months, as more pieces of information come in, I find that it Jorgen VanBraun's article very close to reality.

question, where you do think jorgen got the intimate seeds of information even though twisted beyond recognition? Had to be Danny or Linda. Honestly even if I didn't know anything about these people, the televangelist is one of the most ludicrous pieces of work I have ever read. When you know some of the people being described it is beyond ludicrous and actually turns into incredible lies. Just one example. I knew Goldie and Tommy Shelton Sr. my whole life. They were 2 of the most wonderful sincere god fearing christians that I have ever known. In early years when times were hard Tommy Sr did play in the night clubs of the time simply to put food on the table. He didn't make enough in his trucking business to support the family full time. One thing I can tell you for a fact, even when he wasn't a christian he was one of the most moral men I ever knew. He did his job and came home. He never smoked, he never drank and he never "caroused." Contrary to what I read on here, he never ever took the children with him. When he became an Adventist christian it just amplified all the wonderful traits that he had already.
Goldie had a hard time raising children in near poverty and things only got worse after Tom had his massive, disabling hear tattack at the age of 35. In order to put food on the table, she worked at painting houses inside, cleaning houses, working in a baker for minimum wage, working in a restaurant and at 49 years old after Tom's death she even mowed some lawns!! She loved her family and was as faithful of a christian woman as anyone I ever knew. She played the piano at the adventist church for over 50 years!!! and that included when all 5 of her children were young and growing up. She was always there for their church services or any evangelistic meetings. She loved her church with a vengence and she loved her husband and family the same.
Tears rolled down my face when I read on THE TELEVANGELIST That she was unfaithful to her husband because he was sick. What a terrible terrible lie. All the years that I knew her, what people thought of her was of the utmost importance. She never ever wanted to be a stumbling block in any way to anybody. Her reputation was unsullied up until she died in 99. If she were alive to know what had been written about her, I don't know if she would have ever recovered from such a lie told on the internet, of all things. Whoever gave the author of this piece of trash, those terrible lies, as well as many others, will account before God one day.
I said all that to say this: I gave an example of just one terrible lie in that book. How many others are there? This one had not even a seed of truth. How many others are just as blatant. Please please do not get your information from that piece of filth. IT ISN'T TRUE.

[Panama_Pete]

So you are saying that hoty, paper tigers, pete, saw with their own eyes...what? Danny embezzling funds? the financial dept doctoring books? that he was seeing Brandi on the side? they saw him doing anything illegal? They saw him being abusive to Linda? Those are most of the allegations I can think of on Danny, so, what did they see?

Dear Newbies reading this,

Keep in mind that this is a hypothetical retort. The posters named above, including myself, have not stated that they watched the financial department books being doctored or followed Brandy and Danny around the countryside to see people together, as could be inferred by the above post. The post appears to be sarcastic conjecture relating imagined events being supplied by the poster, WWJD.

This retort is of the type known as reductio ad absurdum. However, in this case, WWJD seems to muddy the waters a bit in an attempt to impose such an argument.

In addition, I spell her name "Brandy" with a y, not i, because I believe that to be the correct spelling.

Pete

[PeacefulBe]

I would like to answer this, If bystander chooses to answer at a later time, he can....
So you are saying that hoty, paper tigers, pete, saw with their own eyes...what? Danny embezzling funds? the financial dept doctoring books? that he was seeing Brandi on the side? they saw him doing anything illegal? They saw him being abusive to Linda? Those are most of the allegations I can think of on Danny, so, what did they see? This is the problem. They might not like him or like the way he handled something but they didn't like Linda either, maybe more so. That does not give them the privilege to say they "saw" these accusations taking place and it doesn not give you or anyone else the right to say they were witnesses to anything when they weren't. Maybe I should say they were not witnesses to anything relevant to these accusations.
While I am talking I will give you my opinion on Danny. The worst fault that Danny had was giving his exwife her way constantly. He built her up constantly, he bragged on her constantly to the point of making some gag, and he waited on her all the time. Those were faults that bothered a lot of people because they felt that she more than took advantage of it and it contributed to an ego problem. just my opinion

Thank you for your opinion on the part of my post regarding past and present employees. I don't think it speaks to why I invoked past and present employees as first hand witnesses but it is interesting nonetheless. I look forward to a response from Bystander as well.

Your opinion on Danny's worst fault is quite interesting.

What is your opinion on the statements/testimonies we have as evidence from the alleged victims of pastoral sexual abuse?

PB

This post has been edited by PeacefullyBewildered: Feb 11 2007, 11:24 AM

[erik]

question, where you do think jorgen got the intimate seeds of information even though twisted beyond recognition? Had to be Danny or Linda. Honestly even if I didn't know anything about these people, the televangelist is one of the most ludicrous pieces of work I have ever read. When you know some of the people being described it is beyond ludicrous and actually turns into incredible lies. Just one example. I knew Goldie and Tommy Shelton Sr. my whole life. They were 2 of the most wonderful sincere god fearing christians that I have ever known. In early years when times were hard Tommy Sr did play in the night clubs of the time simply to put food on the table. He didn't make enough in his trucking business to support the family full time. One thing I can tell you for a fact, even when he wasn't a christian he was one of the most moral men I ever knew. He did his job and came home. He never smoked, he never drank and he never "caroused." Contrary to what I read on here, he never ever took the children with him. When he became an Adventist christian it just amplified all the wonderful traits that he had already.
Goldie had a hard time raising children in near poverty and things only got worse after Tom had his massive, disabling hear tattack at the age of 35. In order to put food on the table, she worked at painting houses inside, cleaning houses, working in a baker for minimum wage, working in a restaurant and at 49 years old after Tom's death she even mowed some lawns!! She loved her family and was as faithful of a christian woman as anyone I ever knew. She played the piano at the adventist church for over 50 years!!! and that included when all 5 of her children were young and growing up. She was always there for their church services or any evangelistic meetings. She loved her church with a vengence and she loved her husband and family the same.
Tears rolled down my face when I read on THE TELEVANGELIST That she was unfaithful to her husband because he was sick. What a terrible terrible lie. All the years that I knew her, what people thought of her was of the utmost importance. She never ever wanted to be a stumbling block in any way to anybody. Her reputation was unsullied up until she died in 99. If she were alive to know what had been written about her, I don't know if she would have ever recovered from such a lie told on the internet, of all things. Whoever gave the author of this piece of trash, those terrible lies, as well as many others, will account before God one day.
I said all that to say this: I gave an example of just one terrible lie in that book. How many others are there? This one had not even a seed of truth. How many others are just as blatant. Please please do not get your information from that piece of filth. IT ISN'T TRUE.

WWJd,

I am glad to hear that danny and tommy parents were better people then what has been presentted,


Just so questions that come to mind how did tommy wander so far from his solid upbringing, and why is he not a SDA like his mother was?

I just told Watchman in different post that i will to for discussion sake say everything about danny and 3 abn is gossip, But charges against Tommy are Well past would be need to by DA to sit grand jury down and look at bring formal charges against Tommy, so it goes to reason that if the secular legal world could do that that the church should be willing to do the same. So lets put the charges agaisnt Tommy to rest by proving them wrong or by at least giving some reason why seven different men would bring the same story forward?

ALso since you are in the know way is Tommy not any SDA?


Erik

[Ralph]

question, where you do think jorgen got the intimate seeds of information even though twisted beyond recognition?
...
IT ISN'T TRUE.

Keep talkin'. I'm listening.