Can One Defy The 3abn Board & Get Away With It?, Linda, Tommy, Danny, & Brandy Options

[Observer]

I said:

There is another posibility. That possibility might be that they actually believe that JC is actively governing the actions of the Board and/or 3-ABN, and that governance is being accomplished without interference from falible human beings. If that is the actual belief, then some other issues come into play, and our approach to 3-ABN may need to change.

Then PB said:

Gregory,
Interesting thoughts. What other issues do you have in mind? How would it change our approach? Can you unpack this a bit more?

If they believe that JC is actually governing the actions of the Board and/or 3-ABN without interference from falible human beings, then the question that might be raised is: Is that belief delusional? [Is it reality, ,or is it unreality?] If one were to say that it was delusional, then one might want to re-think one's approach to this whole situation.

[awesumtenor]

I said:
Then PB said:
If they believe that JC is actually governing the actions of the Board and/or 3-ABN without interference from falible human beings, then the question that might be raised is: Is that belief delusional? [Is it reality, ,or is it unreality?] If one were to say that it was delusional, then one might want to re-think one's approach to this whole situation.

If they truly believed that Jesus was in charge, Danny would be expendable and their loyalty would be to Christ rather than Danny.

Going back to the parable... Danny is not the owner of the vineyard; he is one of the husbandmen hired on to till and tend... but given the latitude that God allowed in his doing that, somewhere along the line he put himself in the place of God and convinced the other husbandmen that he really did own it... and anytime the place of God is usurped, the end result is sin; ask Lucifer.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Observer]

It has been brought to my attention that, in a previous post, a quotation was cited to a person who did not make the comment. I have gone back and corrected that post.

The error occured because I did not carefully review my post for embedded commands. I will illustrate what can happen by the following:

Huh, I do not recall saying that on July 4, 2007

Here is another one:

I'll bet you did not know that I had computer access to Black SDA. I am glad to speak to you all.

Well back to work, all! I hope you enjoyed this diversion.




This post has been edited by Observer: Apr 6 2007, 10:29 AM

[GrammieTana]

This may be a little , but since the 990s were posted, and other comments about the inventory, etc., have been touched on in this thread, I don't think it is WAY of topic.

I don't know what PERKS Danny or others at 3ABN have access to, except what I have read about, and I know there have been a lot of questions raised about morals, ethics, and business practices, I just thought I would post MY opinion about something. I capitalized the word MY intentionally. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

It does not seem unreasonable to me for the C0-Founder/CEO of a world wide ministry to make approximately $71,000 a year. I must admit, when I first started reading the boards, I expected to find that Danny was making MILLIONS.

I wouldn't even have a problem with the ministry using the plane, if it could be shown that the benefits to the ministry outweigh the extra expense.

A friend of mine sent me the URL for a website that discusses how many Televangelists live.

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evang...les.html#JMCars

Make sure to scroll all the way down on the site to see how Joyce Meyer lives. The information about Kenneth Copeland's air force is interesting also.

There may be a lot of things that have to be investigated, but there are a whole lot of SDAs that make a whole lot more money, and probably don't have as much responsibility.

If Danny and the board would be open concerning the finances of the ministry, and could justify the expenses, I think many people would not be so critical.

Excuse me while I put on my body armor.
Lee,

I am still waiting for an answer to my questions also.

L4T

Dear L4T,

I shared the web site you mentioned above with a friend who is as staunch an SDA as I have ever known. This was his response to me.

I must admit that when I first began to read this web site, the old ‘SDA tapes’ started screaming in my mind. But then I began to remember how much I have been spiritually blessed by many of these ministries and how much my relationship with God has grown and simply turned them off!

Do you have any armour you can share with me?

GrammieTana

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "******* ******"
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Attached Page
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:22:06 -0400

Tana,

I have gone over this material. In my estimate as a writer and communicator, it was written with a calculated twist to present facts to prove a pre-established conclusion. The position is one of "Am I not a righteous person, because I can find something wrong with people who claim to be doing God's work?" But, let's assume that what they say is correct. Six things rise from that fact, as far as I am concerned:

1. Since they represent God, it is to Him they will have to answer for their use of the funds He has provided them.

2. Without a personally investigated knowledge of the facts and all aspects of their entire ministry, I am not qualified to judge them.

3. My minimal daily energies are not to be spent in concern over conditions over which I have no control.

4. When God directed the creation of the earthly tabernacle, He directed it to be constructed from the most precious materials. This group of people would undoubtedly report that Sanctuary as, "A shame to spend the people's resources on a place that is used only to slaughter animals, burn incense, and throw blood around."

5. The same would apply to Solomon's decades spent in planning, gathering the incredibly expensive materials and employing the highly skilled craftsmen for 7-8 years to produce an "extravagant" temple, as these people would put it, "Wasting the tax payers precious money on public show, ostensibly to give glory to God."

6. When Pioneer Memorial Church was being built, it was supposed to cost around $500,000. It ended up costing more than $1-million. As a young theology student I was horrified over the cost. I went to my minister Grandfather with my anger. Why was not that money spent on missions? He smiled, and asked me, "******, when God told Noah to build the Ark, what was it built of?" I, of course, told him. "Then, how long did it take to build it?" Of course, 120 years. "Do you think those materials were the best materials money could buy?" Well, I guess so. "Well," he said, "here is a boat, made of the most expensive materials, taking 120 years to build. Is that right?" Yes, I said. "Now, *******, how many souls were saved by that long time and great expense?" Eight, of course. "Then if God feels that eight souls are worth 120 years of labor and the most expensive materials: I think we can rest easy if a house for ministry for generations costs a million dollars." I could not argue with that, and it has been a balancing viewpoint throughout my life.

Those are my thoughts, for what they are worth to you. These people have been of great spiritual guidance to me personally. I have been unable to donate anything to their ministries to show that good. Their money decisions will face a final divine audit and I am not called or qualified to be an auditor. My experience has been that when God is displeased with a ministry, it will vanish overnite. Look at Jim Baker and other teleministries. And those ministries fell, not because of misused funds, but because of a fall into immorality. When you look at the good for God that is being done, I have to believe that God's enemy is doing and will do anything he can to kill those ministries. Even if I believed them entirely wrong, they are representing God. My role is to intercede for them and release them to God as per Isa. 62:6, 7.

Blessings!


To: ******* ******
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: Attached Page

Dear Friend *******:

Thank you for taking the time to examine this information. I knew I could count on you to analyze it carefully and give me an answer that would show me whether my thinking was skewed or not. I totally agree with you in every instance!!

I also remember when PMC was built and the fuss that was made over the size and cost and how ONE individual was so influential that it was cut down to a size that was too small in the beginning and then had to be added onto at a much greater cost in the long run. Your grandfather's answer to your 'horrification' over the cost, etc., was absolutely right! Perhaps you could write a short story for the Review?

Would you mind if I posted your analysis on the internet chatroom where I obtained the original information? I would be happy to take out the identifying marks if you wish and will wait to hear from you as to your decision.

Blessings to you and your wife,
Tana

******************************************************************************
Obviously his answer was in the affirmative. I have made the requested changes and added my own response to his post.

NOW:

To my BSDA friends I would add this: I am in agreement with the general focus of attention to the reported immoral lifestyles of DS and TS, mostly proven by personal experiences stated.

However, the lack of proper financial compensation to the rank and file of godly, dedicated workers, both currently employed and those who have left for one reason or another is a different kettle of fish. If anything, these people should be paid at the very least as much in the way of insurance compensation over and above a salary and other perks equal to that of others in the workforce of this nation The government should NEVER have to compensate the income of workers for God in any way, for any reason!! Negative reports to future possible employers for anything other than unprofessional behavior or incompetent performance is absolutely criminal in my estimation and should also be prosecuted in the courts of men if proof can be established in any credible way.

The unChristlike treatment of LS in the divorce is a separate aspect of this controversy.

However, I look at the spending of funds on having a comfortable home, a traveling vehicle such as even a jet to alleviate the natural depletion of physical and mental energy on the trips that those who travel to far away places in the pursuit of informational/fund raising ministry, as God-given ‘perks’ if you will. I believe that this was the main focus of the web site referred to in the first place. WHY IS IT THAT THE PASTOR OF YOUR LOCAL CHURCH MUST DRIVE AROUND IN A LESS THAN USEFUL OR ATTRACTIVE VEHICLE IN ORDER TO BE WITHIN THE GOOD GRACES OF HIS CONGREGATION!!

Now, when we look at the possible financial manipulations which seem to be going on, that is an entirely different matter. An analization of the use of the funds accumulated should run in the area of proper compensation for work done in the service of God on a par with comparable work done in the world in the business of doing business! This means that every employee of 3ABN should be paid in accordance with comparable work being done in the world of today, so that they can pay their bills, have a decent home and attractive clothing, etc., which properly represents the generous God for whom they are giving their lives. ‘Sacrifice’ as we use the word is not appropriate in the SDA work place, especially when we are working for God!! In this area, much of the SDA world is so focused on the idea that ‘suffering for the Cause’ is a virtue, that we totally lose sight of the fact that God is a GENEROUS GOD, Who wants His children to represent Him in as positive a light as possible. I believe that God will bless a ministry which takes care of its employees and those same blessings will spill over generously to the work of the ministry. The employees should never have to 'pay' for the work that the ministry has been brought up to do!!

Ask yourself: How does my church building represent God in my community? How do the poorer people in my congregation show to the community at large the generosity of God through the more ‘financially gifted’ members of my church? Do they have to go to the local Salvation Army or shop at Good Will or, God forbid, to the SDA Community Services to buy even the most elementary of needs for their family? Granted that many good bargains can be found at these establishments, but if that is the only ‘store’ that these can use for their life necessities, this is not a good representation of God.

Or are there folks in our congregations who are going without heat or a phone or any other items that you consider daily necessities? Are they constantly behind in paying their rent or utilities? Do their children have even an old computer that may help them to stay abreast of their wealthier classmates? Have you tried to help them in any way or do you look at them with disdain as if they are either simply foolish in their spending habits, or worse, dumb in their brain if they don’t have what you have? How many of the single mothers in your church are working two jobs to put a roof over the heads of their children to say nothing of food that will feed their growing bodies and brains? It is just such children who are at risk from the pedophiles in our midst!

How many of us would be willing to get to know the less fortunate in our own congregations to ascertain their true needs? Do they need food? Do they need proper clothing? Do they need a washer or dryer to keep what they do have clean? Do they have the money to purchase laundry soap and body soap or maybe even a little treat for their children or perhaps themselves? How much do you know about the folks you see at church every week?

In the final analysis, each one of us is responsible only for that which we control. Do we realize that the blessings which we enjoy individually have a Godly assignment while at the same time are given to us to bless our lives too. We are fully allowed to enjoy the life that Jesus died to give us.

Oh dear, I’ve got to get down from this big box . ?

GrammieTana (My new ID!)

[PeacefulBe]

GrammieTana,

Big soap box my foot! You just stepped down from the podium after preaching a mighty important sermon, IMO! Do I hear a silent cheer rising from a crowd of employees of a well-known southern Illinois ministry?

I might have a few bones to pick with one or two of your friend's premises, specifically about what materials were put into the Sanctuary, but on the whole your post made some extremely pertinent points.

PB

[lookin4truth]

Dear L4T,

I shared the web site you mentioned above with a friend who is as staunch an SDA as I have ever known. This was his response to me.

I must admit that when I first began to read this web site, the old ‘SDA tapes’ started screaming in my mind. But then I began to remember how much I have been spiritually blessed by many of these ministries and how much my relationship with God has grown and simply turned them off!

Do you have any armour you can share with me?

GrammieTana

Hi GT,

Glad to see your new username. I have been praying for you.

The best armor any of us can put on is the Armor Of God. Thank the Lord, He has provided the best and only armor we need.

I to enjoy listening to some of the ministries mentioned. I agree with your thoughts, and those of your friend, when it comes to people who think those in ministry should live lives of poverty, when they themselves live VERY comfortably.

(1Ti 5:18) For the Scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The laborer is worthy of his reward.

But, there is a big difference between allowing the ox to eat well, and keeping him in a gold stall, and feeding him caviar. Especially when those footing the bill for the gold and fish eggs think their money is being used to spread the Gospel.

I looked up the web site of one of the BIG ministries, and found that the minister travels around, holds meetings in arenas, and charges $10.00 per seat to get in. I know of very few sinners, who are so excited about Jesus, that they want to pay big ticket prices, and stand in large lines at arenas, to hear someone speak about denying ourselves, taking up our cross, and following Him.

Of course that is not what most of them preach. Most preach, "Send your faith gift in, and God will pour out blessings on you.'

Can you imagine, the announcer comes over the air, and says,

"TONIGHT ONLY....J E S U S and the Disciples!!! Be there, be there, be there! Call ticketmaster now, limited seats available.... Just $18.95 per ticket...group discounts apply."

I try to make sure that ministries I support use all or most of the money given, to go directly to the needs. I realize that all ministries have operating expenses, but I think there are better ways to spend the Lord's money than to pay for multi-million dollar homes for Joyce Meyer and each of her children.

I have been involved with ministries, dedicated to preaching God's Word, and helping the poor, etc. Most of these ministries could work years on the money that is spent on the perks of these so-called ministries.

To put it simply... I would rather wear a Timex, and use my money to let others know about Jesus, than to wear a Rolex, and tell others how God has blessed me.

Just my opinion.

L4T


Edited for spelling error

This post has been edited by lookin4truth: Apr 7 2007, 06:49 PM

[Brenda]

"To put it simply... I would rather where (sic) a Timex, and use my money to let others know about Jesus, than to wear a Rolex, and tell others how God has blessed me."


Amen and Amen

This post has been edited by Brenda: Apr 6 2007, 04:35 PM

[mozart]

If they truly believed that Jesus was in charge, Danny would be expendable and their loyalty would be to Christ rather than Danny.

Going back to the parable... Danny is not the owner of the vineyard; he is one of the husbandmen hired on to till and tend... but given the latitude that God allowed in his doing that, somewhere along the line he put himself in the place of God and convinced the other husbandmen that he really did own it... and anytime the place of God is usurped, the end result is sin; ask Lucifer.

In His service,
Mr. J

Very poinant parable Awesome.
This might not go here but it pretains to multiple post so i just stuck it here. hope you don't mind.

These two questions and answers sound contradictory to me. Am I missing something?

1. Are issues of the Shelton family, such as Tommy Shelton's rehire, ever brought to the board for consideration?

ans. Yes! While the board does not ordinarily get involved in determining who is hired or fired, or what compensation employees receive, the Shelton family is an exception.

12. Since a number of board members have openly discussed this in the past, is it true that the BoD is not in the practice of micro-managing the day to day operations of 3abn?

ans. Yes! It is the boards responsibility to hire administrators to manage the operations of the ministry, ......

Also, in reference to Observer's interesting comment on WTs claim of who owns 3ABN, I can't take his answer seriously because it appears to be defensive and evasive. Can anyone get any documentation that shows "who the owner of 3ABN is?" I would like to think that it is Jesus. That would be the ideal, but is it the truth as far as reality goes? WTs answer seems to me to show he is insulted by the question and gives an answer filled with righteous indignation.

11. Is the 3abn board only there to insulate and rubber stamp the owner's agenda?

ans. YES! The owner of this ministry is Jesus Christ. It is indeed the boards practice to insulate and rubber stamp His agenda! (Note: The administration serve as employees of the ministry.)

This post has been edited by mozart: Apr 6 2007, 05:46 PM

[lurker]

Remember that line from the Cosby Show?"I brought you into the world and I can take you out." Well Danny may feel that he owns 3ABN and it is his to do with as he wants even take it out but when they say it belongs to Jesus Christ, that is a different matter. Then the glory of His name is at stake.

This little quote from the Spirit of Prophecy comes to mind when I think of well to do televangelists.

"I was shown that the fact that Judas was numbered among the twelve, with all his faults and defects of character, is an instructive lesson, one by the study of which Christians may be profited. When Judas was chosen by our Lord, his case was not hopeless. He had some good qualities. In his association with Christ in the work, by listening to His discourses, he had a favorable opportunity to see his wrongs, to become acquainted with his defects of character if he really desired to be a true disciple. He was even placed in a position by our Lord where he could have his choice either to develop his covetous disposition or to see and correct it. He carried the little means collected for the poor and for the necessary expenses of Christ and the disciples in their work of preaching. {4T 41.3}

This little money was to Judas a continual temptation, and from time to time, when he did a little service for Christ, or devoted a little time to religious purposes, he paid himself out of the meager fund collected to advance the light of the gospel. He finally became so penurious that he made bitter complaint because the ointment poured upon the head of Jesus was expensive. He turned it over and over in his mind, and counted the money that might have been placed in his hands to expend if that ointment had been sold. His selfishness grew stronger until he felt that the treasury had really met with a great loss in not receiving the value of the ointment in money. He finally made open complaint of the extravagance of this expensive offering to Christ. Our Saviour rebuked him for this covetousness. This rankled in the heart of Judas, until, for a small sum of money, he consented to betray his Lord. There will be those among Sabbathkeepers who are no truer at heart than was Judas; but the cases of such should be no excuse to keep others from following Christ. "{4T 42.1}

This post has been edited by lurker: Apr 7 2007, 06:36 PM

[Pickle]

It is clear to me that God does not want some workers in a ministry to suffer from want while others have more than they need. And I am all for ministers getting paid enough. Yet there are a few points that discussions about wages don't often touch:

Prominent among the primary causes that led Solomon into extravagance and oppression was his failure to maintain and foster the spirit of self-sacrifice (PK 61).

That quote goes on to describe how Hiram of Tyre demanded high wages for his services in building the temple, like he customarily did, and got what he demanded. The Israelites were working on the temple out of love for the cause of God, but after seeing what Hiram got they decided to ask for that too, and they got their request. That resulted in a loss of a spirit of self-sacrifice which then led at least some into apostasy.

What I'm saying is that there are significant spiritual consequences involved in basing our remuneration practices on what the world considers fair and just.

I believe we also have a quote that says that the work will be finished in greater sacrifice than it started with, though I can't find it at the moment. The idea of any sort of sacrifice kind of bugged me for awhile, since regardless of how much I gave I never seemed to sacrifice, as far as I could tell. That is, until we got rid of lots of stuff after accepting a call to go overseas.

Perhaps we wouldn't be discussing any of this today if Danny had kept the spirit of self-sacrifice burning brightly in his own heart.

[beartrap]

How was Jesus compensated for His ministry? What was His mode of transportation? How nice was His house? Where did He lay His head? In what material way did He demonstrate God's blessing on Him? Who is better and more desrving than Jesus?

[Fran]

How was Jesus compensated for His ministry? What was His mode of transportation? How nice was His house? Where did He lay His head? In what material way did He demonstrate God's blessing on Him? Who is better and more deserving than Jesus?

Isn't Jesus to be our example? These points you raise are valid points.

Back in the time of Solomon, their mission was not to take the message to the world. Our mission is different. Those temples were built for God and some by his direct instructions. The were to be symbols of Salvation through the sacrifices to make man at one (Atonement) with God.

After Jesus was raised and ascended to be with His Father, the gospel went to the Gentiles, the temples changed, Men of God began traveling and making a living doing a trade like tent making.

Temples are made to God. Televangelists build their houses as if they were God!

Seventh-day Adventist televangelists need to take a hard look at what they are doing. Other televangelists can not be our example. We have the truth and know the truth. Many other televangelists do not have the truth.

Should Danny have received more money? Probably. This could have been one of the reasons for going in different directions to increase the income. Maybe not. Was the temptation always there? Maybe.

These maybes cannot be addressed because they are not concrete. We can address the results of the clear, factual evidence of abuse to 3ABN by the 3ABN Ministry President, Administrative Staff, and the 3ABN Board Members. In my opinion, that abuse is why we are here today.

[Green Cochoa]

Isn't Jesus to be our example? These points you raise are valid points.
...

Should Danny have received more money? Probably. This could have been one of the reasons for going in different directions to increase the income. Maybe not. Was the temptation always there? Maybe.

These maybes cannot be addressed because they are not concrete. We can address the results of the clear, factual evidence of abuse to 3ABN by the 3ABN Ministry President, Administrative Staff, and the 3ABN Board Members. In my opinion, that abuse is why we are here today.

Should Danny have received more money??? Do you really think so? How much is enough? I've never in my life received as much as most of you posting here do. Definitely not what Danny does. Does that mean I should receive more? Why should I try to keep up with all of you "Joneses?" (Sorry, I'm not trying to name names here...but you get the idea.) Is it true, as I've heard it said, that money never satisfies by its quantity? If you have more, you want more still.

As for something concrete--what IS concrete is that there is never an excuse for sin. Just because I feel that I should have more does not mean I should take it into my own hands to get that which I am not rightfully entitled to have. During a period of time in which I was receiving about $120 per month salary, I was also entrusted with the transfers of funds between the accounting office and the bank, and with making purchases for the institution. I never once was even tempted to take the smallest part to myself of those funds, for they were not mine. That would be stealing. In fact, I was often handling hundreds of the largest denomination bank notes per transaction. Yet every time, I produced correct change and correct receipts.

Because my salary was lower than everyone else's was at that institution, do you think they should have overlooked it if I had "helped myself" to a few "added benefits"?

Eli's sons helped themselves to "added benefits," as if they were receiving too little in the Lord's work. Look where it got them.

[Pickle]

How was Jesus compensated for His ministry? What was His mode of transportation? How nice was His house? Where did He lay His head? In what material way did He demonstrate God's blessing on Him? Who is better and more desrving than Jesus?

Excellent points!

Back in the time of Solomon, their mission was not to take the message to the world.

Actually it was, but in a different way. We have to go into all the world; they could do it in part by staying put.

Israel was at a trade crossroads. Go from Tyre or Damascus down to Egypt and you have to go through Israel. Its strategic position is why the area has been such a hotspot.

[PeacefulBe]

I think that if we shuffle what GrammieTana (and her email contributor), Lurker, Beartrap, Fran, Greenie and Pickle are saying we can come up with a lot of truth.

1. Church buildings should be well-built using good materials and of a size that will allow for growth in membership.

2. Ministries that rely on donations to operate should pay their administration and employees a modest but living wage, allowing all to participate in the same spirit sacrifice that the donors are practicing without becoming a burden on society.

3. The love of money can sometimes become the god one is focusing on at the expense of the relationship that should reign in one's heart.

4. There is a good lesson to learn for each of us as well as all involved in ministry in the way Solomon's temple was built.

5. The desert Sanctuary - built to God's specifications with precious materials that were sacrificially given by His wandering children - pointed to that endtime temple, bought at such a great price by God's Son, that can be seen each time we look into a mirror.