The Color Line.... In The Church?, how are we divided? Options

[Clay]

DuBois said in the preface of his book The Souls of Black Folk:

HEREIN lie buried many things which if read with patience may show the strange meaning of being black here in the dawning of the Twentieth Century. This meaning is not without interest to you, Gentle Reader; for the problem of the Twentieth Century is the problem of the color-line.

He said this in 1903 or so....

One hundred years later is this still true? Has it impacted the church? Our church?

Is the following true in the church we belong?

Today, most white Americans still live their entire lives in “a deep fog of misunderstanding” about the character, construction, and reproduction of white racism as a social system.

For many, there are permanent “clouds of racial prejudice” that have become a normal part of everyday life. Racial hierarchies are seen as “natural” and are unquestioned; incidents of police brutality and “racial profiling” are “unfortunate” but “probably unavoidable”; school busing to promote racial integration is harmful to “neighborhood schools” and “quality education”; affirmative-action programs are “racial quotas” that give “special preferences” to unqualified applicants for jobs and college admissions; economic set-aside programs unfairly favor minority-owned businesses and deny government contracts to more competitive, cost-effective firms; and “no blacks or Hispanics” regularly attend our church because for some strange reason, “none live in our neighborhood.” One of the luxuries of being white in a racist society is that you never have to talk about being white. When something is viewed as normal, then there’s nothing unusual about it, so there’s nothing to talk about.

http://ee.iusb.edu/index.php?/adp/blog/the...f_white_racism/

Is this true about how our church operates or has incorporated in its belief system?

W.E.B. Du Bois described white supremacy as the belief “that every great soul the world ever saw was a white man’s soul; that every great deed the world ever did was a white man’s deed; that every great dream the world ever sang was a white man’s dream.” A belief in the purity of whiteness demands—and is dependent on—the degradation of blackness. As Du Bois put it: “Darker peoples are dark in mind as well as in body; of dark, uncertain, and imperfect descent; of frailer, cheaper stuff; they have no feelings, aspirations, and loves.”

http://ee.iusb.edu/index.php?/adp/blog/the...f_white_racism/

Lastly is it just me or has anyone else observed that Conservative, Christian, White Males don't particularly appreciate assertive black people and women? I am thinking those like Falwell, Robertson, Limbaugh.....

Thoughts?

[Clay]

bump....

[laryfromGary]

DuBois said in the preface of his book The Souls of Black Folk: He said this in 1903 or so....

One hundred years later is this still true? Has it impacted the church? Our church?

Is the following true in the church we belong?

http://ee.iusb.edu/index.php?/adp/blog/the...f_white_racism/

Is this true about how our church operates or has incorporated in its belief system?
http://ee.iusb.edu/index.php?/adp/blog/the...f_white_racism/

Lastly is it just me or has anyone else observed that Conservative, Christian, White Males don't particularly appreciate assertive black people and women? I am thinking those like Falwell, Robertson, Limbaugh.....

Thoughts?

To this: Change in one's thinking and in the thinking of a society is slow. About fifteen years ago I knew that racism in the US would be on it's demise by the time my youngest daughter would be an adult. She is 24 now. In that time we have seen many changes in the minds of "white" america and a small change in the minds of "black" america as the restrictions fell away. Racism as we are familiar with is dying because those older racists, black and white, are dying off. They have very little impact upon the minds of their children hence the lessoning of racism in this time. Sure there are still pockets of racism in certain organizations because those leaders are old and still hold on to their opinions as we see in Christian organizations, and in those organizations tend to be very conservative and resistant to change. I believe that in ten more years racism as we know it will be a thing of the past, and just a note in the history of this country.

[Clay]

the most common form of racism is the type that is not readily identifiable... blacks and minorities being charged more for loans be they car loans or home loans.... a double standard of justice an example being prison sentences being harsher for those caught using crack cocaine vs the sentences for those using just cocaine... a disproportionate number of black males incarcerated...

So I hear what you are saying Lary, I don't think that racism will cease to exist in 10 yrs though..... it may be harder to identify, but the effects will still be felt.....

[Richard Sherwin]

For the last 3 weeks or so I've been working in South Georgia and something I've noticed on this and other trips is that whenever a cop has a car pulled over as often as not that driver is a black man. And not always is the cop white, so is there a biased even among minorities against other minorities? In any case I'd say that 75% of the drivers around these parts are white but my guess is that well over 50% of the drivers pulled over are black. And I don't think for one minute that blacks speed more than whites. Sorry I know this is OT but it's just something that really bugs me.

Richard

[Clay]

For the last 3 weeks or so I've been working in South Georgia and something I've noticed on this and other trips is that whenever a cop has a car pulled over as often as not that driver is a black man. And not always is the cop white, so is there a biased even among minorities against other minorities? In any case I'd say that 75% of the drivers around these parts are white but my guess is that well over 50% of the drivers pulled over are black. And I don't think for one minute that blacks speed more than whites. Sorry I know this is OT but it's just something that really bugs me.

Richard

there can be..... and what you have observed is called "driving while black....."

[laryfromGary]

the most common form of racism is the type that is not readily identifiable... blacks and minorities being charged more for loans be they car loans or home loans.... a double standard of justice an example being prison sentences being harsher for those caught using crack cocaine vs the sentences for those using just cocaine... a disproportionate number of black males incarcerated...

So I hear what you are saying Lary, I don't think that racism will cease to exist in 10 yrs though..... it may be harder to identify, but the effects will still be felt.....

Point well taken Clay, and I agree with you on the point that racism is applied economically now via higher charges on loans,etc. such racism will take longer to eradicate because it is not as noticable as blatant racism that most think of. I think the only answer to this type is education of those who will experience such, and that may be take as long as the previous form. Many of us who will be exposed to that have not been educated in the knowledge of finance for many of our parents and grandparents were not that financially situated that they had to learn the value and the proper use of money hence the way our youth and young adults spend their money

Point well taken Clay, and I agree with you on the point that racism is applied economically now via higher charges on loans,etc. such racism will take longer to eradicate because it is not as noticable as blatant racism that most think of. I think the only answer to this type is education of those who will experience such, and that may be take as long as the previous form. Many of us who will be exposed to that have not been educated in the knowledge of finance for many of our parents and grandparents were not that financially situated that they had to learn the value and the proper use of money hence the way our youth and young adults spend their money

What then is your obervation and opinion? How long do you see this form of racism lasting?

[SoulEspresso]

I'm glad Clay brought this up.

Since most of my books are still in boxes I'm not going to get this exactly right, but Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called Blink within the last few years. He's half-white, half-Jamaican (I think). In the context of describing the situation swirling around the Amadou Diallo (sp?) shooting, he cited a study in which people were shown, via a computer screen I think, faces of different people of different races, and then random objects including guns. They were to identify the objects as quickly as possible. People were 50% (or some appalling number) more likely to mis-identify a wrench as a gun after being shown a black face. Gladwell himself took the study and had the same problem, and he's half-black.

Please give me a lot of grace, because I'm about to be as transparent as I know how:

I'm a white guy living in the rural west, but I grew up in a very integrated school on the East Coast, so it isn't like I grew up in a lily-white society. Imagine my disgust at my internal, physiological reaction to the following: Back in college, I was sitting in the office at my job, when three black schoolmates walked in. I knew two of them, I'd even washed one's feet at communion. But my pulse rate went up through the ceiling when these three black guys walked in.

We had a fine, normal conversation. I have no idea what I was expecting, but later, upon reflection, I was absolutely dumbstruck. I never thought of myself as racist, I deplored racial discrimination of all kinds my whole life (there was even an unfortunate episode in Pathfinders when I helped my friends beat up another white kid who used the n-word at line call), and here I was, sitting in my office ... a racist. Not intentionally ... by God I was horrified.

But my own reaction as someone who thought he was enlightened, plus Gladwell's research, plus being a media consumer as we all are, and other observations over the years, has led me to believe that almost all white people are racist even if they don't want to be. And when it comes to racial issues, we white folks ought to walk in humility before others on the other side of the color line.

I don't know how to overcome it. The only thing I can think of is to be intentional about interracial relationships.

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Apr 8 2007, 09:12 PM

[princessdi]

SE! Praise God for you tranparency! He has given you both courage and faith! Oh that we all would be so honest with ourselves! Praise God for you and yoru testimony!

[NubianSista_C]

I'm glad Clay brought this up.

Since most of my books are still in boxes I'm not going to get this exactly right, but Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called Blink within the last few years. He's half-white, half-Jamaican (I think). In the context of describing the situation swirling around the Amadou Diallo (sp?) shooting, he cited a study in which people were shown, via a computer screen I think, faces of different people of different races, and then random objects including guns. They were to identify the objects as quickly as possible. People were 50% (or some appalling number) more likely to mis-identify a wrench as a gun after being shown a black face. Gladwell himself took the study and had the same problem, and he's half-black.

Please give me a lot of grace, because I'm about to be as transparent as I know how:

I'm a white guy living in the rural west, but I grew up in a very integrated school on the East Coast, so it isn't like I grew up in a lily-white society. Imagine my disgust at my internal, physiological reaction to the following: Back in college, I was sitting in the office at my job, when three black schoolmates walked in. I knew two of them, I'd even washed one's feet at communion. But my pulse rate went up through the ceiling when these three black guys walked in.

We had a fine, normal conversation. I have no idea what I was expecting, but later, upon reflection, I was absolutely dumbstruck. I never thought of myself as racist, I deplored racial discrimination of all kinds my whole life (there was even an unfortunate episode in Pathfinders when I helped my friends beat up another white kid who used the n-word at line call), and here I was, sitting in my office ... a racist. Not intentionally ... by God I was horrified.

But my own reaction as someone who thought he was enlightened, plus Gladwell's research, plus being a media consumer as we all are, and other observations over the years, has led me to believe that almost all white people are racist even if they don't want to be. And when it comes to racial issues, we white folks ought to walk in humility before others on the other side of the color line.

I don't know how to overcome it. The only thing I can think of is to be intentional about interracial relationships.

I agree with PrincessDi as it does take a lot of courage for one to admit how they really feel about racists issues. Not many would be so honest and forthright about it and I take my hat of to you for doing so

[Clay]

SE your comments reflect the other reason why its gonna be difficult to eradicate racism in my opinion... that is the whole thing of reality shaping... and that takes place on a daily basis... take the news for example.... until recently when crimes were reported, white suspects were RARELY shown while black suspects were ALWAYS shown even if they were underage... other media cater to stereotypes blacks usually shown engaged in athletics and entertainment usually buffoonish entertainment at that, while whites are shown in multifaceted roles..... or as someone said, the worse type of racism is the invisible kind where you don't see on t.v. or in print anyone who looks like you (black) or if seen it is in a negative context....

It is hard for me to believe that this type of reality shaping does not have an effect on those attending church.....

[awesumtenor]

I'm glad Clay brought this up.

Since most of my books are still in boxes I'm not going to get this exactly right, but Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called Blink within the last few years. He's half-white, half-Jamaican (I think). In the context of describing the situation swirling around the Amadou Diallo (sp?) shooting, he cited a study in which people were shown, via a computer screen I think, faces of different people of different races, and then random objects including guns. They were to identify the objects as quickly as possible. People were 50% (or some appalling number) more likely to mis-identify a wrench as a gun after being shown a black face. Gladwell himself took the study and had the same problem, and he's half-black.

Please give me a lot of grace, because I'm about to be as transparent as I know how:

I'm a white guy living in the rural west, but I grew up in a very integrated school on the East Coast, so it isn't like I grew up in a lily-white society. Imagine my disgust at my internal, physiological reaction to the following: Back in college, I was sitting in the office at my job, when three black schoolmates walked in. I knew two of them, I'd even washed one's feet at communion. But my pulse rate went up through the ceiling when these three black guys walked in.

We had a fine, normal conversation. I have no idea what I was expecting, but later, upon reflection, I was absolutely dumbstruck. I never thought of myself as racist, I deplored racial discrimination of all kinds my whole life (there was even an unfortunate episode in Pathfinders when I helped my friends beat up another white kid who used the n-word at line call), and here I was, sitting in my office ... a racist. Not intentionally ... by God I was horrified.

But my own reaction as someone who thought he was enlightened, plus Gladwell's research, plus being a media consumer as we all are, and other observations over the years, has led me to believe that almost all white people are racist even if they don't want to be. And when it comes to racial issues, we white folks ought to walk in humility before others on the other side of the color line.

I don't know how to overcome it. The only thing I can think of is to be intentional about interracial relationships.

I feel ya... my best friend back in the day was white ( he still is, actually....but I digress )... his parents treated me like their son; I still call his mother "mom". We lost touch when I joined the navy in 1982 but reconnected last year and he was just here to vist me a couple of weeks ago when it was my turn to preach (he said he had to see it for himself... given our mutual miscreant past)

But talking to him, he has expressed the same cognitive dissonance you have here. I know that Russell would not overtly and with malice aforethought be a racist... but this society conditions people... all people... to believe and accept certain presumptions as if they are omnipresent reality... one of them is that whites are superior to all others; another of them is that blacks, particularly black males are inherently dangerous. It never has to be stated overtly; the constant bombardment of images in the media, portrayals on television, reports of crime on the evening news, etc... continue to entrench this subliminal idea... to the detriment of all.

You've taken the red pill... and I wish I could tell you how far the rabbit hole goes... but from where I'm sitting I don't know that it has a bottom... but consider this essay written by Michael Moore, of Bowling for Columbine fame:

I don't know what it is, but every time I see a white guy walking towards me, I tense up. My heart starts racing, and I immediately begin to look for an escape route and a means to defend myself. I kick myself for even being in this part of town after dark. Didn't I notice the suspicious gangs of white people lurking on every street corner, drinking Starbucks and wearing their gang colours of Gap turquoise or J Crew mauve? What an idiot! Now the white person is coming closer, closer - and then - whew! He walks by without harming me, and I breathe a sigh of relief.

White people scare the crap out of me. This may be hard for you to understand - considering that I am white - but then again, my colour gives me a certain insight. For instance, I find myself pretty scary a lot of the time, so I know what I'm talking about. You can take my word for it: if you find yourself suddenly surrounded by white people, you better watch out. Anything can happen. As white people, we've been lulled into thinking it's safe to be around other white people. We've been taught since birth that it's the people of that other colour we need to fear. They're the ones who'll slit your throat!

Yet as I look back on my life, a strange but unmistakable pattern seems to emerge. Every person who has ever harmed me in my lifetime - the boss who fired me, the teacher who flunked me, the principal who punished me, the kid who hit me in the eye with a rock, the executive who didn't renew TV Nation, the guy who was stalking me for three years, the accountant who double-paid my taxes, the drunk who smashed into me, the burglar who stole my stereo, the contractor who overcharged me, the girlfriend who left me, the next girlfriend who left even sooner, the person in the office who stole cheques from my chequebook and wrote them out to himself for a total of $16,000 - every one of these individuals has been a white person. Coincidence? I think not.

I have never been attacked by a black person, never been evicted by a black person, never had my security deposit ripped off by a black landlord, never had a black landlord, never had a meeting at a Hollywood studio with a black executive in charge, never had a black person deny my child the college of her choice, never been puked on by a black teenager at a Mötley Crüe concert, never been pulled over by a black cop, never been sold a lemon by a black car salesman, never seen a black car salesman, never had a black person deny me a bank loan, and I've never heard a black person say, "We're going to eliminate 10,000 jobs here - have a nice day!"

I don't think that I'm the only white guy who can make these claims. Every mean word, every cruel act, every bit of pain and suffering in my life has had a Caucasian face attached to it.

So, um, why is it exactly that I should be afraid of black people?
I look around at the world I live in - and, I hate to tell tales out of school, but it's not the African-Americans who have made this planet such a pitiful, scary place. Recently, a headline on the front of the Science section of the New York Times asked Who Built The H-Bomb? The article went on to discuss a dispute between the men who claim credit for making the first bomb. Frankly, I could have cared less - because I already know the only pertinent answer: "It was a white guy!" No black guy ever built or used a bomb designed to wipe out hordes of innocent people, whether in Oklahoma City, Columbine or Hiroshima. No, friends, it's always the white guy. Let's go to the tote board:

· Who gave us the black plague? A white guy.

· Who invented PBC, PVC, PBB, and a host of chemicals that are killing us? White guys.

· Who has started every war America has been in? White men.

· Who invented the punchcard ballot? A white man.

· Whose idea was it to pollute the world with the internal combustion engine? Whitey, that's who.

· The Holocaust? That guy really gave white people a bad name.

· The genocide of Native Americans? White man.

· Slavery? Whitey!

· US companies laid off more than 700,000 people in 2001. Who ordered the lay-offs? White CEOs.

You name the problem, the disease, the human suffering, or the abject misery visited upon millions, and I'll bet you 10 bucks I can put a white face on it faster than you can name the members of 'NSync.

And yet, when I turn on the news each night, what do I see again and again? Black men alleged to be killing, raping, mugging, stabbing, gangbanging, looting, rioting, selling drugs, pimping, ho-ing, having too many babies, fatherless, motherless, Godless, penniless. "The suspect is described as a black male... the suspect is described as a black male... THE SUSPECT IS DESCRIBED AS A BLACK MALE..." No matter what city I'm in, the news is always the same, the suspect always the same unidentified black male. I'm in Atlanta tonight, and I swear the police sketch of the black male suspect on TV looks just like the black male suspect I saw on the news last night in Denver and the night before in LA. In every sketch he's frowning, he's menacing - and he's wearing the same knit cap! Is it possible that it's the same black guy committing every crime in America?

I believe we've become so used to this image of the black man as predator that we are forever ruined by this brainwashing. In my first film, Roger & Me, a white woman on social security clubs a rabbit to death so that she can sell him as "meat" instead of as a pet. I wish I had a nickel for every time in the past 10 years that someone has come up to me and told me how "horrified" they were when they saw that "poor little cute bunny" bonked on the head. The scene, they say, made them physically sick. The Motion Picture Association of America gave Roger & Me an R [18] rating in response to that rabbit killing. Teachers write to me and say they have to edit that part out of the film, if they want to show it to their students.

But less than two minutes after the bunny lady does her deed, I included footage of a scene in which police in Flint, Michigan, shot a black man who was wearing a Superman cape and holding a plastic toy gun. Not once - not ever - has anyone said to me, "I can't believe you showed a black man being shot in your movie! How horrible! How disgusting! I couldn't sleep for weeks." After all, he was just a black man, not a cute, cuddly bunny. The ratings board saw absolutely nothing wrong with that scene. Why? Because it's normal, natural. We've become so accustomed to seeing black men killed - in the movies and on the evening news - that we now accept it as standard operating procedure. No big deal! That's what blacks do - kill and die. Ho-hum. Pass the butter.

It's odd that, despite the fact that most crimes are committed by whites, black faces are usually attached to what we think of as "crime". Ask any white person who they fear might break into their home or harm them on the street and, if they're honest, they'll admit that the person they have in mind doesn't look much like them. The imaginary criminal in their heads looks like Mookie or Hakim or Kareem, not little freckle-faced Jimmy.

No matter how many times their fellow whites make it clear that the white man is the one to fear, it simply fails to register. Every time you turn on the TV to news of another school shooting, it's always a white kid who's conducting the massacre. Every time they catch a serial killer, it's a crazy white guy. Every time a terrorist blows up a federal building, or a madman gets 400 people to drink Kool-Aid, or a Beach Boys songwriter casts a spell causing half a dozen nymphets to murder "all the piggies" in the Hollywood Hills, you know it's a member of the white race up to his old tricks.

So why don't we run like hell when we see whitey coming toward us? Why don't we ever greet the Caucasian job applicant with, "Gee, uh, I'm sorry, there aren't any positions available right now"? Why aren't we worried sick about our daughters marrying white guys? And why isn't Congress trying to ban the scary and offensive lyrics of Johnny Cash ("I shot a man in Reno/just to watch him die"), the Dixie Chicks ("Earl had to die"), or Bruce Springsteen ("I killed everything in my path/I can't say that I'm sorry for the things that we done").

Why the focus on rap lyrics? Why doesn't the media print lyrics such as the following, and tell the truth? "I sold bottles of sorrow, then chose poems and novels" (Wu-Tang Clan); "People use yo' brain to gain" (Ice Cube); "A poor single mother on welfare... tell me how ya did it" (Tupac Shakur); "I'm trying to change my life, see I don't wanna die a sinner" (Master P).

African-Americans have been on the lowest rung of the economic ladder since the day they were dragged here in chains. Every other immigrant group has been able to advance from the bottom to the higher levels of our society. Even Native Americans, who are among the poorest of the poor, have fewer children living in poverty than African-Americans.

You probably thought things had got better for blacks in this country. After all, considering the advances we've made eliminating racism in our society, one would think our black citizens might have seen their standard of living rise. A survey published in the Washington Post in July 2001 showed that 40%-60% of white people thought the average black person had it as good or better than the average white person.

Think again. According to a study conducted by the economists Richard Vedder, Lowell Gallaway and David C Clingaman, the average income for a black American is 61% less per year than the average white income. That is the same percentage difference as it was in 1880. Not a damned thing has changed in more than 120 years.

Want more proof? Consider the following:

· Black heart attack patients are far less likely than whites to undergo cardiac catheterisation, regardless of the race of their doctors.

· Whites are five times more likely than blacks to receive emergency clot-busting treatment after suffering a stroke.

· Black women are four times more likely than white women to die while giving birth.

· Black levels of unemployment have been roughly twice those of whites since 1954.

So how have we white people been able to get away with this? Caucasian ingenuity! You see, we used to be real dumb. Like idiots, we wore our racism on our sleeve.

We did really obvious things, like putting up signs on rest-room doors that said WHITES ONLY. We made black people sit at the back of the bus. We prevented them from attending our schools or living in our neighbourhoods. They got the crappiest jobs (those advertised for NEGROES ONLY), and we made it clear that, if you weren't white, you were going to be paid a lower wage.

Well, this overt, over-the-top segregation got us into a heap of trouble. A bunch of uppity lawyers went to court. They pointed out that the 14th Amendment doesn't allow for anyone to be treated differently because of their race. Eventually, after a long procession of court losses, demonstrations and riots, we got the message: if you're going to be a successful racist, better find a way to do it with a smile on your face.

We even got magnanimous enough to say, "Sure, you can live here in our neighbourhood; your kids can go to our kids' school. Why the hell not? We were just leaving, anyway." We smiled, gave black America a pat on the back - and then ran like the devil to the suburbs.

At work, we whites still get the plum jobs, double the pay, and a seat in the front of the bus to happiness and success. We've rigged the system from birth, guaranteeing that black people will go to the worst schools, thus preventing them from admission to the best colleges, and paving their way to a fulfilling life making our caffe lattes, servicing our BMWs, and picking up our trash. Oh, sure, a few slip by - but they pay an extra tariff for the privilege: the black doctor driving his BMW gets pulled over continually by the cops; the black Broadway actress can't get a cab after the standing ovation; the black broker is the first to be laid off because of "seniority".

We whites really deserve some kind of genius award for this. We talk the talk of inclusion, we celebrate the birthday of Dr King, we frown upon racist jokes. We never fail to drop a mention of "my friend - he's black..." We make sure we put our lone black employee up at the front reception desk so we can say, "See - we don't discriminate. We hire black people."

Yes, we are a very crafty, cagey race - and d--- if we haven't got away with it!

I wonder how long we will have to live with the legacy of slavery. That's right. I brought it up. SLAVERY. You can almost hear the groans of white America whenever you bring up the fact that we still suffer from the impact of the slave system. Well, I'm sorry, but the roots of most of our social ills can be traced straight back to this sick chapter of our history. African-Americans never got a chance to have the same fair start that the rest of us got. Their families were wilfully destroyed, their language and culture and religion stripped from them. Their poverty was institutionalised so that our cotton could get picked, our wars could be fought, our convenience stores could remain open all night. The America we've come to know would never have come to pass if not for the millions of slaves who built it and created its booming economy - and for the millions of their descendants who do the same dirty work for whites today.

It's not as if we're talking ancient Rome here. My grandfather was born just three years after the Civil War. That's right, my grandfather. My great-uncle was born before the Civil War. And I'm only in my 40s. Sure, people in my family seem to marry late, but the truth remains: I'm just two generations from slave times. That, my friends, is not a "long time ago". In the vast breadth of human history, it was only yesterday. Until we realise that, and accept that we do have a responsibility to correct an immoral act that still has repercussions today, we will never remove the single greatest stain on the soul of our country

© Michael Moore, 2002.

There is also as good article by Joan Olssen titled " Detour spotting for white anti-racists" that you can read here that I have quoted on a few occasions in the past... Entrenched as it is, I believe it can be defeated... but we're gonna have to free a lot more minds from the Matrix before that happens...

In His service,
Mr. J

[Clay]

deep and sobering... and as I said, I think it does impact the church.... it has too....

[HUGGINS130]

deep and sobering... and as I said, I think it does impact the church.... it has too....

Yes it is deep...im glad you qualified your statement with "it has too" after saying you think it does...if there be any institution whether religious or secular in America, it has impacted all segments of life, including the church!

This post has been edited by HUGGINS130: Apr 9 2007, 09:01 AM

[Clay]

Yes it is deep...im glad you qualified your statement with "it has too" after saying you think it does...if there be any instituion whether religious or secular in America, it has impacted all segments of life, including the church!

correct... but does the church want to deal with it? I don't think so....