The Color Line.... In The Church?, how are we divided? Options

[SoulEspresso]

By the way, I love it that we're able to talk freely about this here. I wasn't sure what the reaction would be when I first posted, but being able to talk is a big deal to me.

I want to apologize for my earlier post in that it was going up at the same time others were posting, so it was a little dated by the time it went up.

Soul

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Apr 9 2007, 12:17 PM

[awesumtenor]

By the way, I love it that we're able to talk freely about this here. I wasn't sure what the reaction would be when I first posted, but being able to talk is a big deal to me.

SE, it's all good... sacred cows and taboos make up the bulk of the menu here

Speaking of which... last week I had the well done end of a prime rib at the rooftop restaurant at the Kennedy Center that was to die for... with blanched green beans and mashed red potatoes with au jus gravy...yeah; as a matter of fact, I haven't had lunch yet... but i digress...

In His service,
Mr. J

[Clay]

By the way, I love it that we're able to talk freely about this here. I wasn't sure what the reaction would be when I first posted, but being able to talk is a big deal to me.

I want to apologize for my earlier post in that it was going up at the same time others were posting, so it was a little dated by the time it went up.

Soul

no prob SE.... we discuss alot of stuff here, as Kevin said, nothing is off limits... and thats one thing I have always liked... we don't hide behind "godtalk" but actually get into an issue....

[princessdi]

No, PB, they were never formed, even though they were much needed. The conference pull out all the stops in the area of propaganda to m ensure the failure of the attempt. a good number of the members in Northern California, had no idea of the existence of Regional conferences, and that PUC, in fact, was the only union without them. They definitely had no idea that they worked exactly like other local conferences. As I said the conference had apropaganda campaign and convince many of them that they tithe they submitted would not be enough to employ pastors for every church(some folks just don't even pay attention to their churches financial report at buisness meetings) somehow the members believed that they really only sent enough tithes to pay their pastor, when in reality two or three churches paid enough to pay every pastor in the 10 black churches within the NCC. Add an unhealthy does of slave mentality{we trust the white man to handle our money more than we trust ourselves, unbelieable but true), and there you had the recipe for failure.

I believe, and some of the members from Southern Cal can confirm this, the pastors there lead by Psator Paschal and others eneded up establishing something called the "Ebony Fund" that would subsidise(sp) projects and even pay pastors for which their [white]conference would refuse to pay.

Example: when they first started the Net Series in '95, the churches were nto given a choice, you either bought the equipment($5,000.00 at that time) and used Net '95 as your evangelism for that year or you got no evangelism funds fromt eh conference office. I know this to be true, because I was there and heard Don Schneider, then president of NCC, say it out of his own mouth. This would not work for black churches are many if not most are located in the inner city areas. Inviting the neighborhood in the basically watch TV with a larger than life(Pres. Schneider's "suggestion" for the presentation to be more effective, white man would not work at all. Therefore, we were stuck for evangelism that year. If your church oculd not afford to pay for it, you had none. This is where something like the Ebony Fund would come in, where the white conference was not sensitive or sympathetic to the unique evangelism needs of the inner city churches. ...And we are not going to even talk about how long it took GC to put anything but a white face on the Net Series, or the inital response of too many white churches. If we were truly "diverse".........you get the picture.

This is also why black churches conferences are not so eager to "combine" as Steve and Kevin alreay mentioned. The actions of GC, Union and local [white] conferences have not shown that they have a mindset for true intergration. At this point the white conferences would merely absorb the black(ethnic) churches, and the REgionsal Conferences and their positions would just disappear.

SE,

Great question! Many young, non-black Adventists are not even aware that there are black or "regional" conferences. Whether having the separate conferences helps rid or propagate racism and stereotypes depends, to a great degree, on the leadership and ministers within. Does the leadership work in heartfelt harmony with their non-black counterparts and union officials and visa-versa? Do ministers present non-racist views from the pulpit? How do the adults of the black conferences portray the white conferences as they sit around the dinner table with their children?

A few Sabbaths ago I spent hours researching the subject of Regional Conferences and had my eyes opened to this issue more than they have been in all of my adult life. I began by reading Ricardo B. Graham's Perspective article (from the 1990's I believe) "Black Seventh-day Adventists and Racial Reconciliation". Click Here for full article.
Among other compelling subjects, the article cites results from a list of questions regarding racism garnered by telephone interviews with both black and white ministers and laity. The results were telling. I was particularly surprised by the results from my neck of the woods. I completely expected that attitudes towards racism would be progressive in Northern California, and yet:
Of further interest and input on the subject is an article (Click Here)The Beginning of Regional Conferences in the US III. It cites the impetus for the "Four Freedoms" petition coming from the case of Lucy Byard:
The final article I read that Sabbath was a 2005 Adventist Today article by Anthony W. Paschal discussing an attempt by California Black Churches to organize a regional conference.(Click Here) What I have not been able to find is anything that shows whether or not Regional Conferences have ever been successfully formed in California since the 1994 attempt.

I believe that a quote from R.B. Graham's Perspective article sums up the racism problem in our denomination:
So, what do we do about it?

[PeacefulBe]

I had hoped for at least one or two comments on my post from last page. Perhaps it was missed due to other posts.

Anyway, three articles that I think bear study on this topic and that I commented on in my prior post are:

http://www.oakwood.edu/ocgoldmine/ldoc/per...rspective15.pdf

http://h0bbes.wordpress.com/2006/09/ (2nd article on page)

https://www.atoday.com/magazine/archive/199...s/Paschal.shtml

[Clay]

The question must be asked.... SE indicated he was told/taught that black folks wanted to form their own conferences so thats what happened.... why was that misinformation given a life and perpetuated? Does that help or hinder the possibility of ever getting together?

[awesumtenor]

The question must be asked.... SE indicated he was told/taught that black folks wanted to form their own conferences so thats what happened.... why was that misinformation given a life and perpetuated? Does that help or hinder the possibility of ever getting together?

He was one of the lucky ones; at least he was made aware of the existence of regional conferences; I surmise his being a pastor had a large hand in that happening... but online, you and I have both come across many caucasian members of this church in the NAD who are completely oblivious to the fact that regional conferences even exist... and when they have been made aware of their existence and they asked their pastor/conference about it, they were then told what SE has stated here...

To answer your question is definitely hinders it because it's intent, ultimately is to say it was our fault that said conferences exist and ergo it must be our fault that they persist. Putting out the truth would make them culpable... and it is human nature to put forth a simple lie to avoid dealing with a hard truth... more evidence of the church's being conformed to this world in spite of Paul's exhortation to the contrary in Romans 12...

In His service,
Mr. J

This post has been edited by awesumtenor: Apr 9 2007, 12:48 PM

[LeePaDee]

CLAY WROTE:
true Lee... however as a christian .org we should be what?
------Are you serious-LEE asking what christians **should** be????

Or does the color component exacerbate the tension/problem?
------In almost all societies the color component exacerbates EVERY problem....

[Clay]

CLAY WROTE:
true Lee... however as a christian .org we should be what?
------Are you serious-LEE asking what christians **should** be????

Or does the color component exacerbate the tension/problem?
------In almost all societies the color component exacerbates EVERY problem....

you know me Lee... all questions are serious.... even if its obvious that in some areas we have light years to travel....

and I agree.... color exacerbates... which is why I started with the stuff from DuBois.... seems like we haven't traveled very far...

[PeacefulBe]

Di,

I was away from the church in '95 so was not aware of the Southern CA attempt at Regional Conferences at the time.

Is the Conference vision of evangelism still so narrow as the One-size-fits-all variety of the original Net plan?

Clay,
My question as well. Why is that the history taught or inferred? I was 18 before I was even aware that there were separate churches in my own part of the world, let alone that there were separate conferences and that there were separate stories about how they had come about.

The "liberal" and rather worldly side of my generational SDA family tree was always very accepting and respectful of other colors. My father instilled in his children that people were people and that he would be proud to bursting if any of his children were to fall in love and marry outside of their race. The "conservative" and actively Christian side lovingly carted carloads of children to their little country church in the redwoods for VBS each summer, no matter the color of the child, brought South American Indian families into their home for mission visits, worked for years on a desert reservation to share the gospel with the Native Americans there. Yet freely used the racial epithet "Japs" and the N-word behind their neigbors' backs to describe the race. They were adamant in teaching their grandchildren that "Be not unequally yolked" was a skin reference instead of a spiritual one.

[princessdi]

Frankly, PB, I have no idea what we do about it. There are several problems on several levels here. I, believe, honest and open dialogue as were are having here is a start. Everyone getting a good understanding of the issues, and I may not know what to do, but someone else might, and we can work together on it. One thing, Iknow that has to happen is that the GC president, needs to quit seeing or at lest referring to the problem as cultural diversity, and I know he is not the only one. It is much more more difficult to actually tackle the problem.

There is always Steve's idea to dismantle the whole system as we have come to know it and and start from scratch......... to back to our roots of small groups, etc.

I had hoped for at least one or two comments on my post from last page. Perhaps it was missed due to other posts.

[SoulEspresso]

I currently live in the North Pacific Union, and there is no black conference here. I grew up on the East Coast. My church, when I was in elementary school, was in a white conference but well integrated. So was the Adventist school I attended, though some of my black classmates went to black-conference churches. When it came to Pathfinders, either they joined our club or we never saw them except at union or world events.

My wife grew up in the NPUC. I was the one to tell her about the existence of black conferences. She was appalled.

I'm appalled, too, in the real story behind the emergence of the black conferences. I can see how the situation was twisted around to "blacks asked for it" but that's no excuse.

This has been one of the most instructive threads I've read since I've been on BSDA. I'm having trouble keeping up with the information flow, so I'm going to have to come back later today and reread some of the posts and links ... this "post while I'm working" isn't doing so hot ...

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Apr 9 2007, 01:20 PM

[PeacefulBe]

Frankly, PB, I have no kidea what we do about it. There are several problems on several levels here. I, believe, honest and open dialogue as were are having here is a start. Everyone getting a good understanding of the issues, and I may not know what to do, but someone else might, and we can work together on it. One thing, Iknow that has to happen is that the GC president, needs to quit seeing or at lest referring to the problem as cultural diversity, and I know he is not the only one. It is much more more difficult to actually tackle the problem.

There is always Steve's idea to dismantle the whole system as we have come to know it and and start from scratch......... to back to our roots of small groups, etc.

Cultural diversity within the borders of this country, anyway, is a misconception, IMO. From my own experience I believe that, while there may be some areas, possibly regionally, where we are somewhat culturally different we are culturally American. This was illustrated to me during my year in Sierra Leone. After just a few months there it was easy to spot Black Americans in a crowd of Sierra Leonians just by their mannerisms and behavior.

The Information Age we are in, with the internet and cable TV, has further narrowed any cultural gap that used to exist. The exception to this, however, are the groups such as white supremists, who have so isolated themselves from reality that their minds have been culturally retarded. Any form of racism now is basically spread carelessly from parent to child during normal life activities.

Dismantling the Conference system, IMO, would probably be counter-productive. I think through organization we have the potential for strength. It just needs to be organized properly.

[princessdi]

Di,

I was away from the church in '95 so was not aware of the Southern CA attempt at Regional Conferences at the time.

Not just Southern all of California, I think it was Union wide really.


Is the Conference vision of evangelism still so narrow as the One-size-fits-all variety of the original Net plan?

Well, GC did allow Walter Pearson to do a Net series in 2005(?), but not before calling him in the ask him to tone down his preaching, virtually none of the usual advertising support given to prior Net series, a good portion of white churches opting out of that particular Net, scheduling a convenient meeting directly after by Doug Bachelor from TN(I believe) complete with the usually advertising support, to which the same white churches readily participated.
So they changed a bit, but I would say their hearts weren't in it.............Also, for the record I believe they have asked him to do another Net, we will see how that turns out.

I really, really, hate to say this PB, but since we are all being honest here, I will say that I don't believe the focus ont he Net series was ever to be "diverse" in it's evangelism. First of all, it was a sattellite series when many minorities would not have access neither the money to obtain the access to satellite at their churches , let alone their homes. Then as I stated the line up of speakers was deliberate. I know ALL of us could name at least one or two black evangelist or at least any other ethnic group, who could have been asked to present the Series in 10 years time. They even repeated the same speakers a few times, it is not like they would have trouble finding others to present it.The target audience seems to have been zaucaisan Baby Boomers and Busters.

[princessdi]

Didn't say it was the best answer, just one that Steve likes, and honestly at this point only seems best to start eeverybody on a level playing field as much as possible. Right now whites are stilt he ruling class even if they are no longer the majority. That is a clear advantage.

Cultural diversity within the borders of this country, anyway, is a misconception, IMO. From my own experience I believe that, while there may be some areas, possibly regionally, where we are somewhat culturally different we are culturally American. This was illustrated to me during my year in Sierra Leone. After just a few months there it was easy to spot Black Americans in a crowd of Sierra Leonians just by their mannerisms and behavior.

The Information Age we are in, with the internet and cable TV, has further narrowed any cultural gap that used to exist. The exception to this, however, are the groups such as white supremists, who have so isolated themselves from reality that their minds have been culturally retarded. Any form of racism now is basically spread carelessly from parent to child during normal life activities.

Dismantling the Conference system, IMO, would probably be counter-productive. I think through organization we have the potential for strength. It just needs to be organized properly.