Linda's Litigation Options

[Fran]

Anything that would help show that certain employees and friends of 3ABN aren't getting preferential pricing for sales of donated items would also be helpful, given the allegations regarding that kind of thing that have been made in the past.

Exactly!

[steffan]

thanks steffan, do you happen to know how they do that?

I ask the same question. I understood the answer to be that things such as quilts, baby items, knick knacks, china, silverware, dolls.....those are the items that go on ebay and at the campmeeting sales. Valuable coins and donated jewlery are usually sold to coin and jewelry dealers. Through the connection 3abn has made with a few dealers, they can get more, especially for coins, than the average person trying to sell them. The ones that handle the donations appeared to have become quite adept and knowledgable at what they are doing.

[Fran]

I saw a program awhile back that addressed the donation of items. They said that less items and less time are being spent on eBay and more sales to buyers in the area for certain items.

Steffan;

We really MUST have a conference call with Judge Barbara Rowe! We could find out the definition of this statement, especially the word merchandise, and see what it really means:

The third building is the “call center”, which is about 7,000 square feet and is where applicant (Danny Shelton/3ABN) stores, ships, and receives its merchandise.

As the name suggests, it is also where applicant (Danny Shelton/3ABN) receives calls from viewers around the world interested in applicant’s programs and products. (Applicant’s(Danny Shelton/3ABN) Ex. No. 1; Tr. pp. 81-91, 119-122, 233, 280- 292) end of footnotes on page 2/46

I am sure she could add value to this discussion. I am sorry I was not the one you should be attacking and slandering. I believe we should send your comments directly to her for her amusement and comments. I wonder what she would feel about your comments addressed to me, but were actually for her report?

It is my opinion that it means it was used to store. ship and receive MERCHANDISE. That would be inventory of goods to sell and inventory of supplies. However, the one listed was merchandise that was sold and shipped!

Have they shut down all eBay sales or is it going strong and we just aren't supposed to know it? It costs more to list the merchandise what they are charging for it. They would be ahead if they would stop listing it and stick it in the ... oops, where ever it is they stick that "Whatever you want to call it" for Campmeeting!

Have a great day.

[LaurenceD]

We really MUST have a conference call with Judge Barbara Rowe!

...

I am sure she could add value to this discussion.

Here she is writing her Recommendation:

Although Danny Shelton testified that he has written three books about the teachings and principles of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, (Tr. pp. 155-157) those books were not admitted into evidence, nor were the circumstances regarding the religious nature or financial information about the books admitted into evidence. -p.32 3abn v. State of Illinois

Then they wonder why she was forced to rule the way she did. 3abn was no match for the Dept. of Revenue.

[Panama_Pete]

Through the connection 3abn has made with a few dealers, they can get more , especially for coins, than the average person trying to sell them.

I think that idea of 3ABN getting more is just one of the well-worn 3ABN stories.

I do not believe 3ABN has the power over time and space when it comes to liquidating gifts-in-kind. I think 3ABN gets the same, average, mediocre results that any Tom, Dick or Harry could get from visiting coin dealers on their own.

And, really, what difference would it make to "get more" if it just goes to pay Danny Shelton's airport landing fees for his private jet? Do people with private jets at their disposal spend time bargaining with coin dealers over a few dollars? Don't make me laugh.

This post has been edited by Panama_Pete: May 16 2007, 11:25 PM

[Pickle]

Here she is writing her Recommendation:

Although Danny Shelton testified that he has written three books about the teachings and principles of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, (Tr. pp. 155-157) those books were not admitted into evidence, nor were the circumstances regarding the religious nature or financial information about the books admitted into evidence. -p.32 3abn v. State of Illinois

Then they wonder why she was forced to rule the way she did. 3abn was no match for the Dept. of Revenue.

Hmm. Seems to me that Danny told me it was all lies that he was trying to hide his royalty arrangements on his books from the courts until after the settlement of the marital property case, even though he told me that he wouldn't reveal his royalty arrangements until at least after the settlement of the marital property case.

But Judge Rowe is quite clear that Danny hid his royalty arrangements from the court in the tax case. The royalty arrangements, and how many books 3ABN would buy at a time, would be critical information in proving 3ABN's case that their property should be tax exempt, and yet Danny refused to disclose such information to the court.

Now I realize I'm using strong words like "hid" and "refused," so I want to clarify that. I don't use those words because I am assuming that Judge Rowe asked for such and Danny refused to comply. Rather, I use those words instead because I am assuming that Danny is no dummy and would know that he needed to disclose that information to better ensure that he would win the case.

Thus he refused to comply with what his own good sense would have told him that he needed to do in order to win the case, and the only conclusion I can draw from such a refusal is that he also knew that such a disclosure would have demonstrated that he is personally profiting from 3ABN activities, which would have caused him to lose the case.

Not sure how else to take all this.

[Grith]

A few years ago I donated a collectible item (which was not real expensive, but not a cheap trinket either) to 3abn. I am still waiting for a receipt. I never saw it for sale in the ebay store nor did I see it for sale when I attended a campmeeting there a few months later. BTW, I saw the items they had for sale. They were in a large building more like a huge garage, and there was nothing there that I would have paid money for. It was mainly do-dads, and typical yard sale stuff.

[LaurenceD]

Not sure how else to take all this.

That's why it would be very interesting to read the transcript (Tr.)

There were many reasons why the judged had to rule against 3abn. I think not fully disclosing informations was self-destructive. It appears to have been the pattern of 3abn to assume...if the court doesn't know everything, we'll be better off. And, if that's the case, they terribly underestimated the Dept. of Rev.

Reading Judge Rowe's Recommendation, count how many time you see reference to incomplete information....

"No information was offered...were not in evidence...Pages 8-10 of this exhibit are missing...not explained...additional concerns...Applicant’s financial reports raise additional questions and concerns...There is nothing in the record to identify the donors or the assets...Applicant has no records of materials given away...The record contains absolutely no evidence proving how 3ABN determines the prices...There is no indication in the record...there is discrepancy in the testimony...Applicant did not provide a break down of those wages...Applicant did not explain...Applicant did not verify or establish the assertions of Danny Shelton...Those amounts were also not explained...It is difficult to totally understand applicant’s financial position based solely on the financial statements submitted...how the remaining unrestricted funds are used is unknown."

And that's not all...

[LaurenceD]

(Added) Since the court documents were not impounded, I'm sure the transcript is available for public viewing, and if not, surely through the Freedom Of Information Act. Here's a likely source for anyone who might have the time and a few bucks to obtain it...

http://www.find-court-records.org/court_re...CFQtYSgodH1kKeg

Have to read the testimonies and hear what both sides were saying to understand what a slam dunk this case appears to have been. It could be that the Dept, of Rev. had answers for every point 3abn brought to the table, and from which the judge drew her conclusions. And it could be 3abn had no counter arguments and that the judge was unable to draw any conclusions from the incomplete and self-contradictory information they submitted.

[Seraphim7]

That's why it would be very interesting to read the transcript (Tr.)

There were many reasons why the judged had to rule against 3abn. I think not fully disclosing informations was self-destructive. It appears to have been the pattern of 3abn to assume...if the court doesn't know everything, we'll be better off. And, if that's the case, they terribly underestimated the Dept. of Rev.

Reading Judge Rowe's Recommendation, count how many time you see reference to incomplete information....

"No information was offered...were not in evidence...Pages 8-10 of this exhibit are missing...not explained...additional concerns...Applicant’s financial reports raise additional questions and concerns...There is nothing in the record to identify the donors or the assets...Applicant has no records of materials given away...The record contains absolutely no evidence proving how 3ABN determines the prices...There is no indication in the record...there is discrepancy in the testimony...Applicant did not provide a break down of those wages...Applicant did not explain...Applicant did not verify or establish the assertions of Danny Shelton...Those amounts were also not explained...It is difficult to totally understand applicant’s financial position based solely on the financial statements submitted...how the remaining unrestricted funds are used is unknown."

And that's not all...

Looks like at least 10 instances that the negative is used in reference to the unavailability of information...

[Pickle]

Have to read the testimonies and hear what both sides were saying to understand what a slam dunk this case appears to have been. It could be that the Dept, of Rev. had answers for every point 3abn brought to the table, and from which the judge drew her conclusions. And it could be 3abn had no counter arguments and that the judge was unable to draw any conclusions from the incomplete and self-contradictory information they submitted.

What I heard is that if the Dept. of Rev. or whoever had done their job better, 3ABN's situation would have been far worse.

[Fran]

It is with great sadness that it appears that eBay's nan_don may be closing down. They sell from Van, TX.

They used to have at least 3 pages of items to sell. Now they have only one, and the last item is their stock for sale. There is no reserve, and the 1st bid is $ 9.99. The item number is 200110236818.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...DME:B:FSEL:US:1

This is a sad day. I would surly like to know the reason they are shutting down. Their items used to be listed on 3ABN eBay. In fact, Nan was a point of contact fro questions about eBay products.

So many sellers have closed their doors since 2004. These folks had like item transactions with 3ABN eBay. I have to check on all of them now!

If you check out 3ABN's eBay store at http://stores.ebay.com/3-ANGELS-GIFT-SHOP_...Q3aUSQ3a3QQtZkm you will find a few NEW items along with all those items that have been there since last year. There are 2 pitchers that look nice. They look ceramic. Doesn't Tammy deal with ceramics as well as ceramic tiles.

There is an eBay Store that is really nice. http://stores.ebay.com/Bright-Star-Ceramic...sQ3amesstQQtZkm This is the place to look if you are needing Ceramic Tiles. There are 4 patterns I am going to get one of these days.

Mister Junque's store at http://stores.ebay.com/MisterJunkque_W0QQs...sQ3amesstQQtZkm is fun to go browse through. It used to take me days to check it out because he listed thousands of items. I always look at year boos. Mount Pisgah is there frequently. i saw one once from Oakwood. I find Adventist books and of course secular books that 3ABN eBay could never carry and sell without some kind of protest! So be careful at what you are buying in secular books.

His store is down to only 772 items. It looks like another one is at least slowing down. How sad.

[steffan]

I think that idea of 3ABN getting more is just one of the well-worn 3ABN stories.

I do not believe 3ABN has the power over time and space when it comes to liquidating gifts-in-kind. I think 3ABN gets the same, average, mediocre results that any Tom, Dick or Harry could get from visiting coin dealers on their own.

And, really, what difference would it make to "get more" if it just goes to pay Danny Shelton's airport landing fees for his private jet? Do people with private jets at their disposal spend time bargaining with coin dealers over a few dollars? Don't make me laugh.

Pete, your attitude has really deteriorated over time. In the first place it has been explained over and over that a private supporter paid for the lease and expenses of the plane.
Then you said Danny is going bargain with coin dealers.......
Danny doesn't do any of that period. And, who said a few dollars? At times they sell thousands of dollars of coins. As far as they can't get more, just use your head. If you have a few dealers that you are consistently doing thousands of dollars worth of business with, of course they are going to give that person more for coins or bullion. They want to keep the business coming. That benefits they buyer and the seller. I would think anyone would know something like that.

[mozart]

Please everyone, let's not start with the insults and bickering. Please just take a deep breath and just discuss the issues. thanks, Mo

Pete, your attitude has really deteriorated over time. In the first place it has been explained over and over that a private supporter paid for the lease and expenses of the plane.
Then you said Danny is going bargain with coin dealers.......
Danny doesn't do any of that period. And, who said a few dollars? At times they sell thousands of dollars of coins. As far as they can't get more, just use your head. If you have a few dealers that you are consistently doing thousands of dollars worth of business with, of course they are going to give that person more for coins or bullion. They want to keep the business coming. That benefits they buyer and the seller. I would think anyone would know something like that.

[beartrap]

Pete, your attitude has really deteriorated over time. In the first place it has been explained over and over that a private supporter paid for the lease and expenses of the plane.

There has been some question about whether that individual donor is paying only for the lease, or if he is paying for lease, fuel, maintanance, pilots, hangar, and the rest, and that no monies sent to 3ABN by donors other than him are used for that aircraft or travel expenses associated with it. Steffan, is it definitive that that this single donor completely covers every expense related to that aircraft and its use?

This post has been edited by beartrap: May 17 2007, 11:00 PM