10 Commandmants Weekend, (moved from Lawsuits Filed thread) Options

[Clay]

posting the 10 commandments is akin to "worshiping" them in my opinion.... overemphasis on something that was not given for the believer to "keep" as much as to help them see that they needed a savior.... leave it to us to get it twisted....

[princessdi]

ITA!!! People don't even know what they are inferring when they want prayer and th 10Commandments in public schools/buildings. There is supposed to be a separation fo church and state, and the line gets blurred all the time. Is that not what we are supposed to be looking out for according to our prophecy doctrine? When governement starts governing religion?


BTW, prayer is in school as long as there is someone there praying. Why is it necessary for the teacher/counsleor/principal to pray. And as the email says, what kind of prayer is it, and to whom or to everybody, or nobody in particular.

RECEIVED THIS IN EMAIL TODAY - JUST POSTING FOR ANY DESIRED DISCUSSION.
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Message: 19

Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 01:28:19 +0000

From: "Kevin Paulson"

Subject: Shelley Quinn


Dear Brothers and Sisters:


One further word on Shelley Quinn and the Ten Commandments

book. Many have rightly raised concern about this book's implied

support for organized prayer and the posting of the Ten Commandments

in public schools. The idea is clearly conveyed by Danny and Shelley

that the government should not have removed these elements, and thus

they come across as supporting the efforts of the Religious Right to

unite church and state.



Let's remember, folks: If the Ten Commandments are posted in

public schools, which version will be posted? Congressman Jerrold

Nadler of New York, who represents the West Side here in our City,

asked the right question when this issue was debated in Congress:



"Whose Ten Commandments? The Catholic version? The Protestant

version? They're different, you know."



That's just the trouble, however. Many DON'T know!



The whole point here is that by posting ANY version of the

commandments in public schools, the government is making a

theological statement. This is not the place of civil authority in a

society where those of all faiths and of none share equal status under the law.



The same is true of the issue of prayer in the same

context. Whose prayers will they be? Catholics pray to Mary and the

saints; Protestants don't. Christians pray in Jesus' name; Jews and

Muslims don't/ Again, the state should not be making theological

statements. And prayer is very much a theological statement, any way

you look at it.



The idea that God has been "thrown out" of public schools by the

exclusion of such activities from the curriculum, is absurd for the

simple reason that no one can stop anyone from praying, anytime,

anywhere. We can all pray silently any time we wish, and more

importantly, we can act like Christians wherever we find

ourselves. No law can possibly prevent this.



With this in mind, I and many others found the Shelton/Quinn Ten

Commandments book deficient and likely misleading. And others in

responsibile positions, including many in our religious liberty

department, expressed the same concerns.



God bless!



Kevin

[mozart]

Mt 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Joh 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments. (this is the only time or place in scripture, that i am aware of, where Jesus tells us how to show our love for HIM )

Joh 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

posting the 10 commandments is akin to "worshiping" them in my opinion.... overemphasis on something that was not given for the believer to "keep" as much as to help them see that they needed a savior.... ....leave it to us to get it twisted

clay could you please unpack this for me. who is "us" and what is twisted? i'm confused about what you are saying.

This post has been edited by mozart: Jun 8 2007, 10:44 PM

[Clay]

Mt 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Joh 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments. (this is the only time or place in scripture, that i am aware of, where Jesus tells us how to show our love for HIM )

Joh 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
clay could you please unpack this for me. who is "us" and what is twisted? i'm confused about what you are saying.

"get it twisted" simply means we have confused the issue.... the text you have quoted are fine, but most who use them skip over the MOST important part so that they can get to the part they want i.e. telling people to keep the commandments.... The text says, IF you LOVE me..... most of us do not love God as Jesus suggested we love God.... Love him with our total being.... and we would be able to do that before we can even get to the "keeping" part......

Perhaps the thread on the message to Galatians found here:
http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13601

would help in understanding the purpose of the law and the reality that we cannot "keep" anything, regardless of how many times we say we can....

If Adam and Eve in their perfection were not able to keep the one law given to them, how does anyone think that after thousands of years of sin they can keep (in and of themselves) the 10 commandments? It's not possible....

When Jesus told his disciples, without me you can do nothing, that suggests to me that even in our "keeping" or "doing" it is with divine help. Thus if Christ is assisting us, and covering us with his righteousness, we cannot claim that we are keeping the law.... we aren't..... it is Christ in us....

Lastly I like this verse, because I think it speaks directly to us as adventists because we are so adamant about working our way into the kingdom.....

Galatians 3:21-22 emphasis mine

If such is the case, is the law, then, an anti-promise, a negation of God's will for us? Not at all. Its purpose was to make obvious to everyone that we are, in ourselves, out of right relationship with God, and therefore to show us the futility of devising some religious system for getting by our own efforts what we can only get by waiting in faith for God to complete his promise. For if any kind of rule-keeping had power to create life in us, we would certainly have gotten it by this time.

[watchbird]

If Adam and Eve in their perfection were not able to keep the one law given to them, how does anyone think that after thousands of years of sin they can keep (in and of themselves) the 10 commandments? It's not possible....

When Jesus told his disciples, without me you can do nothing, that suggests to me that even in our "keeping" or "doing" it is with divine help. Thus if Christ is assisting us, and covering us with his righteousness, we cannot claim that we are keeping the law.... we aren't..... it is Christ in us....

Agreed with your emphasis above, Clay... except for two caveats....

1) Adam and Eve WERE able to keep the one law given to them.... they CHOSE to disobey it. We, by contrast would not even be able to CHOOSE to obey... except for the fact that Christ gives the ability to choose back to us... even before we know or ask. But... as you say... we are not able to do anything without "divine help". But...

2) Christ assisting us and covering us with His righteousness.. does not mean that we cannot claim that we are doing the good we are doing.... we are... and the phrase should not be merely "Christ in us"... even though that is a Biblical phrase... for that phrase has been all too often misconstrued to support a passive do-nothing attitude in which we expect Christ to do everything while we effortlessly stand idly by and attempt nothing.

Relationship is the key word here... as you so often point out... and it should always appear when we speak of Christ in us.... ie. it should be Christ in relationship with us.. and we in relationship with Him. In this arrangement He provides the protection for our will so that we may use it to make right choices... and He provides the divine assistance that we need to enable us to do whatever He requires of us. And that is, what he individually requires of us... He does not always require the same things... objectively speaking.... from different individuals.

[Clay]

good points... let me start another thread... did Adam and Eve choose or was one of them deceived?

[PeacefulBe]

Joh 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments. (this is the only time or place in scripture, that i am aware of, where Jesus tells us how to show our love for HIM )

Mo,

Are you saying that by keeping the commandments we show Jesus that we love Him or that when we love Him we will keep His commandments?

My personal interpretation of this verse is that when we truly love Jesus, really know Him personally, obedience will be a natural result, not anything that we manufacture ourselves. If we are keeping His commands, it is not by our own might or power in the way that the Pharisees did, but is instead the fruit, the evidence, of our close relationship with Him.


John 14:15"If you love me, you will obey what I command."

John 14:23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching."


Clay,

Thanks for bringing in these awesome words from Paul to the Galations!

If such is the case, is the law, then, an anti-promise, a negation of God's will for us? Not at all. Its purpose was to make obvious to everyone that we are, in ourselves, out of right relationship with God, and therefore to show us the futility of devising some religious system for getting by our own efforts what we can only get by waiting in faith for God to complete his promise. For if any kind of rule-keeping had power to create life in us, we would certainly have gotten it by this time.

[mozart]

Mo,

Are you saying that by keeping the commandments we show Jesus that we love Him or that when we love Him we will keep His commandments?
i don't see any difference in these two.

My personal interpretation of this verse is that when we truly love Jesus, really know Him personally, obedience will be a natural result, not anything that we manufacture ourselves. If we are keeping His commands, it is not by our own might or power in the way that the Pharisees did, but is instead the fruit, the evidence, of our close relationship with Him.
i just quoted scripture. i'm not sure how that could bring into question my thinking like a pharisee.
John 14:15"If you love me, you will obey what I command."

John 14:23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching."
Clay,

Thanks for bringing in these awesome words from Paul to the Galations!

sorry you misunderstood the point of my Bible quotes. i am not inferring that keeping the law is our salvation by works. i think we all know that is not scriptural. the point of the scripture is to show how important keeping the commandments is to Christ, to the point of saying "if you love me", then giving the order "keep my commandments".
if we believe that we cannot truly love the Lord and therefore cannot keep His commandments, then how do we grow in Christ?

these are not my words, they are God's.

we are broken vessels, we are weak in the flesh but that should not be used as an excuse to say, "since we can't fully keep the commandments, we should therefore push them aside and not even try". nor should we dance around them until we find a way for them to not be intrusive in our lives. someone said once, "i want God in my life as long as He doesn't interfere".
Jesus gives an order here, pre-empted by the phrase, "If you love me...". that can only mean that the order is directed to those who meet the condition mentioned. if a parent tells a child, "go do your homework", that is an order. how well the child does his homework is judged by their teacher. a good teacher, such as our Lord, will reward his efforts even if his homework is not perfect.

-The Reward-
further scripture in Ch. 14 of John, verse 21 continues in this vein. "He who has my commandments with him and obeys them is the one who loves me; he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.

my deductions is: that our efforts in trying to keep the commandments as an expression of our love for Jesus will be rewarded by His love and His Father's love and in so doing, Him revealing Himself to us further.

God's commandments, as any parent's, mean nothing to one who has no love. but to one who trusts in Jesus, obeying them is an expression of the love in which they were given.

because the teachings were given, out of love, by our Redeemer, we do our best to obey because we love Him and care what He thinks of us. this attitude toward obedience is the result of the teachings given in love by our God. The Holy God who created us in love, who taught us in love and who sacrificed His Son in love for our transgressions. we all fall short, we all have "shortcomings", but if we love the Lord, we will try to do as He commands us. as children of a Most Holy and Perfect God should we do any less? the commandments tell us right from wrong. our civil laws were built on them. how else would anyone know right from wrong lest God tell them Himself?

This post has been edited by mozart: Jun 9 2007, 09:14 PM

[Clay]

thanks Mozart.... you aren't getting it, and I don't have the words to explain it at the moment.... you believe you can keep the law... knock yourself out...

[PeacefulBe]

Mo,

I wasn't challenging your statement, I was trying to get clarification of what you were saying. I also was posting my own opinion of the verse you posted. I'm not saying you are thinking like a Pharisee, I was referring to the way they kept the law - in their own power. Our denomination has been rife with legalism for generations and finally seems to be moving away from that "You will be saved only if you follow all of these rules" mentality.


Each of us has to determine for ourselves how we interpret the scriptures because each journey is unique. What I find amazing in my own life is that these interpretations often change the more I learn about Who is saving who in this wonderful plan of salvation.

PB

This post has been edited by PeacefullyBewildered: Jun 9 2007, 09:26 PM

[mozart]

NP, PB, i was just quoting scripture for consideration, letting the Bible speak for itself.

Mo,

I wasn't challenging your statement, I was trying to get clarification of what you were saying. I also was posting my own opinion of the verse you posted. I'm not saying you are thinking like a Pharisee, I was referring to the way they kept the law - in their own power. Our denomination has been rife with legalism for generations and finally seems to be moving away from that "You will be saved only if you follow all of these rules" mentality.
Each of us has to determine for ourselves how we interpret the scriptures because each journey is unique. What I find amazing in my own life is that these interpretations often change the more I learn about Who is saving who in this wonderful plan of salvation.

PB

in reference to the bolded statement you make here, (if i am understanding your statment correctly), i can't agree with that. the Bible says scripture interprets itself. are you saying that we can interpret scripture according to our own personal preferences? do you not mean to say "we apply scripture to our individual situations"? please explain. you may pm on this since it is "off topic".

This post has been edited by mozart: Jun 10 2007, 08:33 PM

[PeacefulBe]

NP, PB, i was just quoting scripture for consideration, letting the Bible speak for itself.

in reference to the bolded statement you make here, (if i am understanding your statment correctly), i can't agree with that. the Bible says scripture interprets itself. are you saying that we can interpret scripture according to our own personal preferences? don't you not mean to say "we apply scripture to our individual situations"? please explain. you may pm on this since it is "off topic".

Would it help if I changed "interpret" to "understand"? When we are mature we have a much different understanding of the universe around us than when we were babies. I believe this applies to spiritual things as well. JMO.

[mozart]

ya, i can agree with that.

Would it help if I changed "interpret" to "understand"? When we are mature we have a much different understanding of the universe around us than when we were babies. I believe this applies to spiritual things as well. JMO.

[Brick Step]

I feel we need always to be careful not to speak of love as though it were something different from obedience to the Ten Commandments. Love IS God's law. “God is love. 1 John 4:16. His nature, His law is love. It ever has been; it ever will be.” Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 33.

Commands from God not to kill, or commit adultery or dishonour your parents, or require your servants to work on the Sabbath, or covet your neighbours wife, would have been meaningless to the unfallen who had never experimented with sin. I believe in its original form God’s law must have simply stated, “Love God supremely, and all others unselfishly.” Lucifer came along and wanted to be loved supremely, like God, and that’s where the great controversy started. But for us, God’s law is still the same law of love. The Ten Commandments are just the special adaptation of this law of love for this fallen planet.

The problem with the scribes and Pharisees was that they divested law-keeping of love. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.” Matthew 23:23, NKJV. “Justice and mercy and faith” are spiritual exercises, each being just different dimensions of the one principle of love. “Faith works by love.” Galatians 5:6. Unbelief is sin. Faith and love, as placed in the heart by the covenant-keeping God, and exercised, are one connecting link with Christ, not two, and it is impossible to have this spiritual link with Christ, apart from outward manifestations that this has occurred.

The entrance of sin demanded a new demonstration of God’s love in which the fallen must exercise faith, but the command to exercise faith in God has never changed. It has always been there, and always will be. The very decision to look to Jesus, exercise faith in Him, put on the covering robe of His unblemished righteousness, is the first step in obedience to the first commandment, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” For the fallen, justifying faith itself is a dimension of law-keeping!

“Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God [love, see context] abides in him, and he in God.” 1 John 4:15.

“… true love is an ingredient in true and living faith, and is what is most essential and distinguishing in it. … That a justifying faith, as a most distinguishing mark of Christianity, is comprehended in the great command of loving God, appears also, very plainly, form what Christ says to the Jews, John 5:40-43, etc..” Jonathan Edwards, Christian Love, p. 7. “But you are not willing to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive honour from men. But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.” John 5:40-43, NKJV.

There are only two classes at the end, those who have “patience”, who “keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:12), and the unbelieving or disobedient. Commandment keepers, and commandment breakers. It is VERY important to give focus to what commandment-keeping means. This is the blueprint on our relationship with God, and with all others. There are differences between the law and the gospel. There are also some vitally imporant similarities.

I feel it is important to remember that what God thundered out at Sinai and wrote with His finger on those two tables of stone, were also the words, "I am, the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." Exodus 20:2; cf Deuteronomy 5:1-22. The actual promise of deliverance from the bondage of sin, and the exodus story that it might typify our literal endtime deliverance from bondage in this world (see Revelation 15:3), is indelibly inscribed on the tables of God's law! Wow!

While I feel there is need for an investigation, I personally felt 3ABN, in the overall, as seen over satellite TV, did wonderfully in its up front Ten Commandments Weekend presentations. Praise God for the souls who have been won as a result.

[mozart]

I feel it is important to remember that what God thundered out at Sinai and wrote with His finger on those two tables of stone, were also the words, "I am, the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." Exodus 20:2; cf Deuteronomy 5:1-22. The actual promise of deliverance from the bondage of sin, and the exodus story that it might typify our literal endtime deliverance from bondage in this world (see Revelation 15:3), is indelibly inscribed on the tables of God's law! Wow!

While I feel there is need for an investigation, I personally felt 3ABN, in the overall, as seen over satellite TV, did wonderfully in its up front Ten Commandments Weekend presentations. Praise God for the souls who have been won as a result.

AMEN