The 3abn Massachusetts Lawsuit Poll Options

[Pickle]

Oh please Bob, I can't believe you really think that. I'm very familiar with the area you live in and probably know many of the same people. They are good people, but I know for a certainty that many have the exact set of beliefs that AT is describing. Is that thinking starting to die out? Thankfully yes. Do a number of members/churches still lean that way. Unfortunately yes.

-bear

Okay, I'll be more plain: Over several decades I have had membership in or have regularly attended at least 16 churches in at least 9 states across the continent, and have rubbed shoulders with folks of various theological leanings, including folks at a number of supporting ministries, and not once have I ever heard or read anyone make the following statements:

• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to the church
• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to ... Adventism
• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to ... the Adventist sub-culture
• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to ... Ellen White, ... in her person
• ... believe that EGW will get them to heaven
• ... the Laodicean condition only applies to those who do not adhere to "the old landmarks"
• ... we are capable of achieving sinless perfection in and of ourselves
• ... we must do so [achieve sinless perfection in and of ourselves] before the end of probation
• ... there is no salvation outside the "ark of safety" that is Adventism...

Thus, I presently consider the above statements to be unwarranted and dangerous mischaracterizations of the positions of others, and I will continue to hold that opinion until someone somewhere can provide some sort of documentation (actual quotations are definitely necessary) in support of such assertions.

We have enough problems with getting criticism from others without providing mischaracterizations that they will then wrongly cite as authority in their warfare against us.

I repeat: I do not presently believe that anyone can cite any Adventist anywhere taking the above positions, and I more than welcome being proven wrong.

[awesumtenor]

Okay, I'll be more plain: Over several decades I have had membership in or have regularly attended at least 16 churches in at least 9 states across the continent, and have rubbed shoulders with folks of various theological leanings, including folks at a number of supporting ministries, and not once have I ever heard or read anyone make the following statements:

• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to the church
• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to ... Adventism
• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to ... the Adventist sub-culture
• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to ... Ellen White, ... in her person
• ... believe that EGW will get them to heaven
• ... the Laodicean condition only applies to those who do not adhere to "the old landmarks"
• ... we are capable of achieving sinless perfection in and of ourselves
• ... we must do so [achieve sinless perfection in and of ourselves] before the end of probation
• ... there is no salvation outside the "ark of safety" that is Adventism...

Thus, I presently consider the above statements to be unwarranted and dangerous mischaracterizations of the positions of others, and I will continue to hold that opinion until someone somewhere can provide some sort of documentation (actual quotations are definitely necessary) in support of such assertions.

We have enough problems with getting criticism from others without providing mischaracterizations that they will then wrongly cite as authority in their warfare against us.

I repeat: I do not presently believe that anyone can cite any Adventist anywhere taking the above positions, and I more than welcome being proven wrong.

Search the archives of this forum and of the old yahoo groups blacksda forum. There is a thread here with a lengthy, albeit not close to exhaustive, list of divergent doctrinal positions from PrincessDrRe... all of which she has heard preached from Adventist pulpits... in that thread there are those who posit what you have here, that they have been in this church all their lives and have never heard such things... read the whole thread and see the number of people who corroborate the things she Such statements are here... and they persist in the Adventist church... which should be no surprise when for going on 4 generations this church has purported to possess "all of the truth" and teaches that to not join this church is to reject the truth in favor of doctrinal errors as taught in whatever church that person currently belongs to. I am not talking about what I or another may have read into the statements of others; if you've read my posts, you will know I am as prone to dig for the truth to minimize presumption on my part as you are... and as one who was not born into this church there very well may be comments that raise a red flag with me and cause me to ask the questions that will uncover such thinking that one who is steeped in the Adventist subculture may allow to pass by as background noise... but my RCC upbringing has made me wary of those who insist on painting themselves as the pillar and ground of the truth and in the 18 years I have spent in this church, there have been many Adventists... online and in local churches and at camp meetings and retreats who have set the "DANGER, WILL ROBINSON" klaxon off on my unsound doctrine detector.

I agree with and endorse the "official doctrinal positions" of the church... else I would not be a member and an ordained elder preaching and teaching said positions...but there are a great many unofficial doctrinal positions that set those official positions on their collective ear. If you want, we can do a poll... the results would be purely anecdotal but I think that will give us a ballpark within which to assess the claim in a purely non-scientific means.

In His service,
Mr. J

[watchbird]

Okay, I'll be more plain: Over several decades I have had membership in or have regularly attended at least 16 churches in at least 9 states across the continent, and have rubbed shoulders with folks of various theological leanings, including folks at a number of supporting ministries, and not once have I ever heard or read anyone make the following statements:

• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to the church
• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to ... Adventism
• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to ... the Adventist sub-culture
• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to ... Ellen White, ... in her person
• ... believe that EGW will get them to heaven
• ... the Laodicean condition only applies to those who do not adhere to "the old landmarks"
• ... we are capable of achieving sinless perfection in and of ourselves
• ... we must do so [achieve sinless perfection in and of ourselves] before the end of probation
• ... there is no salvation outside the "ark of safety" that is Adventism...

Thus, I presently consider the above statements to be unwarranted and dangerous mischaracterizations of the positions of others, and I will continue to hold that opinion until someone somewhere can provide some sort of documentation (actual quotations are definitely necessary) in support of such assertions.

We have enough problems with getting criticism from others without providing mischaracterizations that they will then wrongly cite as authority in their warfare against us.

I repeat: I do not presently believe that anyone can cite any Adventist anywhere taking the above positions, and I more than welcome being proven wrong.

Bob, I think the problem may be in the semantics.

I also don't know of those who will verbally assert what you have said above... at the same time I know of many who verbalize one position and by the way they present other things show that they do indeed hold the positions that Kevin described. And... in the case of the first 6 and last that you mention above... the reason they do not say explicitly these words is because at the same time that they are considering anyone to be "lost" who is not a member of the SDA church or do not say this about the "Laodicean" condition, is because they are too busy criticizing the church for its errors, some even to go so far as to call it "Babylon".... except for a few who are followers of original Adventism... and THOSE are the ones who are considered "Laodicean".

As for "sinless perfection in and of themselves".... that is verbally denied by the most staunch perfectionists that I have run across... but that is not to say that there are not plenty who teach and expect "sinless perfection" in the lives of all around them... whether that is a magical doing for them or something that they achieve themselves (with the help of the HS of course) it still nets out to the same thing that Kevin described.

I, like you, would like to think that all of our critics' accusations are groundless. Unfortunately, while most of their criticisms... when applied to the whole church... are not true.... yet I doubt that you could find more than a very few... if any.... which are not true for some person in Adventism... and in some local churches, it is quite possible that most in that local church hold the errant view.

[YogusBearus]

Okay, I'll be more plain: Over several decades I have had membership in or have regularly attended at least 16 churches in at least 9 states across the continent, and have rubbed shoulders with folks of various theological leanings, including folks at a number of supporting ministries, and not once have I ever heard or read anyone make the following statements:

• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to the church
• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to ... Adventism
• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to ... the Adventist sub-culture
• ... [some] Adventists ... ascribe some infallibility to ... Ellen White, ... in her person
• ... believe that EGW will get them to heaven
• ... the Laodicean condition only applies to those who do not adhere to "the old landmarks"
• ... we are capable of achieving sinless perfection in and of ourselves
• ... we must do so [achieve sinless perfection in and of ourselves] before the end of probation
• ... there is no salvation outside the "ark of safety" that is Adventism...

Thus, I presently consider the above statements to be unwarranted and dangerous mischaracterizations of the positions of others, and I will continue to hold that opinion until someone somewhere can provide some sort of documentation (actual quotations are definitely necessary) in support of such assertions.

We have enough problems with getting criticism from others without providing mischaracterizations that they will then wrongly cite as authority in their warfare against us.

I repeat: I do not presently believe that anyone can cite any Adventist anywhere taking the above positions, and I more than welcome being proven wrong.

Am I to understand that you wish me to provide you names and direct quotes to validate my opinion? I can't be certain but this sounds similar to another on-going investigation I've heard about.

Here's the deal Bob. You stated your opinion and I stated mine. I don't feel any compulsion to sway your thinking and hope you don't feel it is necessary to educate me on my error. We are both relying on our experience in the church over the years. Since I am way older than you, my experience trumps yours (jk).

Work for you?


-bear

[Pickle]

• "... going on 4 generations this church has purported to possess 'all of the truth' "

In actuality, the Adventist Church has consistently taught that there is still new light to be discovered.

AT, I see you and I have something in common in regard to coming out of the RCC.

Rather than a poll of what people think someone may have said, I think concrete quotes would be much more helpful.

[Pickle]

Am I to understand that you wish me to provide you names and direct quotes to validate my opinion?

Sure! Why not? But I don't think Standish, Spear, Grosboll, Larsen, and others that might be of their persuasion have ever said such things. I think WB is correct that they would deny, for example, that anyone can be sinlessly perfect in and of themselves.

Here's the deal Bob. You stated your opinion and I stated mine. I don't feel any compulsion to sway your thinking and hope you don't feel it is necessary to educate me on my error. We are both relying on our experience in the church over the years. Since I am way older than you, my experience trumps yours (jk).

Work for you?


-bear

No, it doesn't work for me. You are entitled to your opinion, and I certainly don't feel like I have to convince you. But I am not going to sit by silently and let my church and faith be maligned by false statements that are posted for all the world to see. If the statements are true, that's another matter, but the statements are false.

And in the rare case that someone can find some kook that will dare to say that they believe some of those things, the opinions of one lone kook should not be used to discredit and criticize the entire movement.

[Pickle]

Bob, I think the problem may be in the semantics.

Probably so. But we really need to be careful that we word things accurately, lest we end up playing telephone. We can easily end up leading others into believing things about us that are simply untrue if we distort the positions of others to this extent.

To say that some Adventists act as if the Adventist Church has a degree of infallibility, I can live with that. It's probably or likely true that you can find some who have acted that way. But to say that some Adventists ascribe some infallibility to the church, that wording suggests to me that there are Adventists who have actually stated that they believe such, and I have yet to read or hear anything like that.

[YogusBearus]

No, it doesn't work for me. You are entitled to your opinion, and I certainly don't feel like I have to convince you. But I am not going to sit by silently and let my church and faith be maligned by false statements that are posted for all the world to see. If the statements are true, that's another matter, but the statements are false.

And in the rare case that someone can find some kook that will dare to say that they believe some of those things, the opinions of one lone kook should not be used to discredit and criticize the entire movement.

Bob, let me make clear that my opinion is not meant to malign anyone's faith or church. Reality is not always pretty, and certainly not the way we would wish sometimes. While assisting a local Lutheran church in worship planning recently, I was amazed at the level of hostility they verbalized towards Lutherans that belonged to a different synod. My point is that these elitist positions seem to coincide with our desire to be right and most certainly are not restricted to SDA's.



-bear

[awesumtenor]

To say that some Adventists act as if the Adventist Church has a degree of infallibility, I can live with that. It's probably or likely true that you can find some who have acted that way. But to say that some Adventists ascribe some infallibility to the church, that wording suggests to me that there are Adventists who have actually stated that they believe such, and I have yet to read or hear anything like that.

Bob,

The wording is not 'suggesting' anything... just as you state unequivocally that you have never heard such, I am stating equally unequivocally that I have and that I am not the only one. Bottom line is, as long as there are Adventists "in good and regular standing" who accept the doctrinal positions of "historic Adventists" or Reform SDAs or Shepherd's Rods of Branch Davidians et al, these things will continue to be stated and adhered to within the church and while the church has done a much better job with those in denominational employ, they have failed in producing anything remotely resembling doctrinal consistency in the preaching and teaching of local elders... and I have heard local elders preach all of these things from Adventist pulpits on Sabbath morning or teach them in Sabbath School. I have heard them put forth in Revelation Seminars and in Bible Studies and in forums like this one not as implications but rather as declarations of so-called truth and I have seen them say that if any differed with them they were not "true Adventists" and should leave the church if they didnt agree.

While your experience is your experience and if you say you never heard anything like this I have no reason to not believe you... but that door swings both ways... although I believe if you went over the things you've heard with a finer toothed comb, you'd find your experience is not nearly as pristine as you deem it.

I can't prove it... but I believe it nonetheless because too many others once they came to the point of actually examining it closely have found themselves having to change their tune. I am stating for the record, however... I am not maligning the church nor am I picking at her flaws... but you can't know where you are going until you know where you've been...


In His service,
Mr. J

[Ephphatha]

Danny will disagree strongly with you on that point. If Danny owned 3ABN, Linda would be legally entitled to take half of the company's assets.

Only if the laws in the particular state allow for that, some states do not have community property laws and (I don't know if they did or did not) it wouldn't be an option if they signed a pre-nup. Given the current situation, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Panama_Pete]

Bob,


While your experience is your experience and if you say you never heard anything like this I have no reason to not believe you... but that door swings both ways... although I believe if you went over the things you've heard with a finer toothed comb, you'd find your experience is not nearly as pristine as you deem it.

I can't prove it... but I believe it nonetheless because too many others once they came to the point of actually examining it closely have found themselves having to change their tune. I am stating for the record, however... I am not maligning the church nor am I picking at her flaws... but you can't know where you are going until you know where you've been...
In His service,
Mr. J

I think you're both right -- the Adventist Church -- and it's membership varies depending on location. I think it is possible to be an Adventist in some parts of the country and not see the extremes that exist elsewhere -- the Branch Davidian offshoot in Texas -- which Awesumtenor mentioned -- is a case in point. Adventists in Northern Minnesota and neighboring Canada - thousands of miles away from that notorious Branch Davidian compound - could honestly say they've never encountered that theological isolationism that exists elsewhere.

When it comes to isolationism, there was an interesting mention of it on the Adventist Today website, where it was noted Adventists, as a whole, are less likely to be involved in a community's social activites than members of other denominations. From a socio-political point of view, these issues may all be related to each other.

Here's the link:

http://www.atoday.com/email/2007/06/11/#1

Analysis by Paul Richardson, Center for Creative Ministry:

"Only 7% of Seventh-day Adventist churches in the U.S. report that they are involved in community organizing projects or advocacy on social issues in the community. This is less than one third the rate for all religious congregations in America.

[Brick Step]

I must concur with the points Pickle is making.

Sure! Why not? But I don't think Standish, Spear, Grosboll, Larsen, and others that might be of their persuasion have ever said such things. I think WB is correct that they would deny, for example, that anyone can be sinlessly perfect in and of themselves.


No, it doesn't work for me. You are entitled to your opinion, and I certainly don't feel like I have to convince you. But I am not going to sit by silently and let my church and faith be maligned by false statements that are posted for all the world to see. If the statements are true, that's another matter, but the statements are false.

And in the rare case that someone can find some kook that will dare to say that they believe some of those things, the opinions of one lone kook should not be used to discredit and criticize the entire movement.

[Pickle]

I think it is possible to be an Adventist in some parts of the country and not see the extremes that exist elsewhere -- the Branch Davidian offshoot in Texas -- which Awesumtenor mentioned -- is a case in point. Adventists in Northern Minnesota and neighboring Canada - thousands of miles away from that notorious Branch Davidian compound - could honestly say they've never encountered that theological isolationism that exists elsewhere.

I've avoided saying anything about my background in order to not make it easy for Danny et. al. to dig and dig and find nothing. But I will say now that I used to pastor a church in a town where one of Koresh's almost wives lived, someone whom he tried to marry before he went to Waco, while he was a member at a church in TX, where he got disfellowshipped for pushing the preacher aside and preaching his own sermon one Sabbath, the preacher being the father of the almost wife.

That being said, I'm not sure we can lump in the theological positions of Branch Davidians into this discussion, since we are talking about Seventh-day Adventists, not Branch Davidians, who are an offshoot not of the Seventh-day Adventist Church but of Shepherd's Rod.

[Pickle]

Bottom line is, as long as there are Adventists "in good and regular standing" who accept the doctrinal positions of "historic Adventists" or Reform SDAs or Shepherd's Rods of Branch Davidians et al, these things will continue to be stated and adhered to within the church and while the church has done a much better job with those in denominational employ, they have failed in producing anything remotely resembling doctrinal consistency in the preaching and teaching of local elders... and I have heard local elders preach all of these things from Adventist pulpits on Sabbath morning or teach them in Sabbath School. I have heard them put forth in Revelation Seminars and in Bible Studies and in forums like this one not as implications but rather as declarations of so-called truth and I have seen them say that if any differed with them they were not "true Adventists" and should leave the church if they didnt agree.

Perhaps part of the problem is that I've thought you were talking solely about Seventh-day Adventists and you were lumping in the pronouncements of other groups that might be called Adventist by some folks?

If you know of any local elders that wouldn't mind confirming with me that they do indeed believe such things, I would find that helpful.

Regarding telling folks they should leave, I confess, I once told someone who was hammering me over an issue, and even suggesting that I could be sued, "People that don't believe that Jesus died in our place for our sins, even though the Bible and SOP say so, we don't need those kind of people in the church." I can't see anything wrong with making such a statement under the circumstances that I made it.

[watchbird]

Regarding telling folks they should leave, I confess, I once told someone who was hammering me over an issue, and even suggesting that I could be sued, "People that don't believe that Jesus died in our place for our sins, even though the Bible and SOP say so, we don't need those kind of people in the church." I can't see anything wrong with making such a statement under the circumstances that I made it.

Then I suggest that you go sit in the corner and meditate until you DO see something wrong with making any statement about not needing "those kind of people in the church".

I am an Evangelical Seventh-day Adventist, so I am thorougly saturated with the doctrine of substitutionary atonement. But I know a goodly number of people who are good Seventh-day Adventist Christians who hold to models of salvation other than this one... and I would certainly not even THINK of them as not being the kind of people we want in our church!