The 3abn Massachusetts Lawsuit Poll Options

[Pickle]

The 3ABN saga has come to rock the very foundations of the SDA church because most members believe in the infallibility of the SDA church.

I have yet to run into any Adventist that believes the Adventist Church is infallible. To the contrary, Adventism teaches that the Laodicean message applies to itself, and that is anything but complimentary.

Last Sabbath in my sermon we covered the message to the church of Ephesus, as a springboard. I asked folks if they thought our first love had grown dim, and they felt it had. That shows anything but a belief in our church's infallability.

I do not blindly follow anyone. At the same time I will try to treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty, and will seek both sides of issues before coming to a conclusion.

Adventism teaches that the Bible is the only rule of faith and practice for the Christian. While some among us disagree and want to dissect the Bible and discard this part or that part, there really are no prospects on the horizon of that happening. Thus Adventism still requires as a test of fellowship that we place the Bible above every preacher, every church leader, every member. And that is how it should always be.

The real lesson we should glean from the 3ABN saga is that we each one need to get our house in order, whether we are a leader or a member in the pews. Each one of us needs to stand on the Word of God, and being willing to stand there though the heavens fall. Because one day the world's greatest men are going to try to pick us apart, and they'll put us trhough an IRS audit of the scale of Dan. 6, and for the same reasons. How will we fare on that day if our lives then are like what they are today?

May the Lord Jesus and His will be the most supreme focus in our lives.

[st mary]

Thank you so much my brother for your kind answers.
I am also very happy to know that you do not know of anyone who believes in the infallibility of Adventism. I was born in it and it is still rife in the West Indies, and in Florida where I have attended a number of our churches including the one I am currently attending it is very much present and alive. What 3ABN has now declared to the world that it is a nondenominational organization is very typical of us when we see that what we stood for in the past is not holding us up and the future ahead looks bleak. It must be rather sad at this time for those of us whose faith is elsewhere than in Christ. I am not looking for a perfect church because there is no such thing.I am not in the least bit worried however over how God will turn events, whether at 3ABN or in our personal lives because it will always be for his glory. It is only by faith in Christ that we will make it through these times.
Jesus while He was on earth stood up for the defenceless and the weak.That is our duty. That is true religion. Thank you for showing this example in the true spirit of Christ.

[watchbird]

Thank you so much my brother for your kind answers.
I am also very happy to know that you do not know of anyone who believes in the infallibility of Adventism. I was born in it and it is still rife in the West Indies, and in Florida where I have attended a number of our churches including the one I am currently attending it is very much present and alive. What 3ABN has now declared to the world that it is a nondenominational organization is very typical of us when we see that what we stood for in the past is not holding us up and the future ahead looks bleak. It must be rather sad at this time for those of us whose faith is elsewhere than in Christ. I am not looking for a perfect church because there is no such thing.I am not in the least bit worried however over how God will turn events, whether at 3ABN or in our personal lives because it will always be for his glory. It is only by faith in Christ that we will make it through these times.
Jesus while He was on earth stood up for the defenceless and the weak.That is our duty. That is true religion. Thank you for showing this example in the true spirit of Christ.

But all does not look bleak. There is hope. There are those who, when they "visit the altars of the past, bring back the fire and not the ashes".... that is to say there are those who remind us that the guiding principle in our early church was not merely their codifications of "truth", but the principle of "present truth", which in its very statment indicated that truth was always growing and expanding and that we are most faithful to the past when we grow beyond it... in our understandings of doctrine and scriptures as well as in our applying the principles of Love to our lives.

Yes, there are those who still cling to the tattered coats of infallibility and uniqueness. But the voices who are seeing the error in that are growing stronger... and more and more are lifting up their eyes to behold Christ and seeing him as increasingly glorious. If you are not so fortunate to be in such a church, perhaps you should look around a little more. There are many options for SDA worship in the state of Florida. Keep looking until you find one where the leadership of the local church is not bound by the rigid bands of yesterday.

[Artiste]

Very interesting! I'm listening to Alan Reinach (religious liberty lawyer for Pacific Union) and the 3abn moderator (Latino director) both emphasizing how their religious liberty efforts are for the benefit of interfaith purposes! They're going on and on about it, bringing up various rationals.

I'm thinking this might be a useful approach for the General Conference to use (modified to suit the circumstances) if they wish to rationalize continuing on with 3abn as a non-denominational ministry. After all, 3abn is still a supporting ministry of the GC, right?




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This post has been edited by Artiste: Jun 29 2007, 12:35 AM

[Pickle]

I am also very happy to know that you do not know of anyone who believes in the infallibility of Adventism. I was born in it and it is still rife in the West Indies, and in Florida where I have attended a number of our churches including the one I am currently attending it is very much present and alive.

You are probably referring to specific types of things that you have seen. So while you have noticed a reticence to admit fault in certain situations, there may be other situations, as in asking during a sermon whether we have left our first love or not, that folks there would be quite free in admitting that we do have our problems, and serious ones at that. Would this be a fair assessment?

Last night at worship I shared with the group, among other things, from 1SM 205:

Shortly before I sent out the testimonies regarding the efforts of the enemy to undermine the foundation of our faith through the dissemination of seductive theories, I had read an incident about a ship in a fog meeting an iceberg. For several nights I slept but little. I seemed to be bowed down as a cart beneath sheaves. One night a scene was clearly presented before me. A vessel was upon the waters, in a heavy fog. Suddenly the lookout cried, "Iceberg just ahead!" here, towering high above the ship, was a gigantic iceberg. An authoritative voice cried out, "Meet it!" There was not a moment's hesitation. It was a time for instant action. The engineer put on full steam, and the man at the wheel steered the ship straight into the iceberg. With a crash she struck the ice. There was a fearful shock, and the iceberg broke into many pieces, falling with a noise like thunder to the deck. The passengers were violently shaken by the force of the collisions, but no lives were lost. The vessel was injured, but not beyond repair. She rebounded from the contact, trembling from stem to stern, like a living creature. Then she moved forward on her way.

I love this quote. If only the Titanic had hit head on its problem, it wouldn't have sunk. Meeting head on a crisis in the proper, tactful, christlike way may precipitate the shaking, but the promise is that no lives will be lost. Hallejuah!

[Observer]

Very interesting! I'm listening to Alan Reinach (religious liberty lawyer for Pacific Union) and the 3abn moderator (Latino director) both emphasizing how their religious liberty efforts are for the benefit of interfaith purposes! They're going on and on about it, bringing up various rationals.

I'm thinking this might be a useful approach for the General Conference to use (modified to suit the circumstances) if they wish to rationalize continuing on with 3abn as a non-denominational ministry. After all, 3abn is still a supporting ministry of the GC, right?
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I support the efforts of our Religious Liberty people to be inter-faith. In law, one has to take cases as they come. Decisions that are made on a specific case will often affect later cases. IOW, any decision in an inter-faith case may affect one of our later cases. But defending in an inter-faith case, one is attempting to defend against later cases which may directly affect us.

[Artiste]

I support the efforts of our Religious Liberty people to be inter-faith. In law, one has to take cases as they come. Decisions that are made on a specific case will often affect later cases. IOW, any decision in an inter-faith case may affect one of our later cases. But defending in an inter-faith case, one is attempting to defend against later cases which may directly affect us.

Nobody is condemning religous liberty for being interfaith. In general, professionals leave their specific faith out of the picture when they are engaged in their professional duties. The 3abn program however seemed to be spending an extra effort to point out interfaith aspects. Did you see the segment?

[Fran]

Nobody is condemning religious liberty for being interfaith. In general, professionals leave their specific faith out of the picture when they are engaged in their professional duties. The 3abn program however seemed to be spending an extra effort to point out interfaith aspects. Did you see the segment?

I saw the program and agree. Then it occurred to me as I watched that it is possible for 3ABN to solicit the aid of Religious Liberty to save 3ABN from the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Now, that would be interesting. We could have Religious Liberty defending 3ABN from/for (???) the Seventh-day Adventist World Church.

Is this a possible scenario?

I believe Voltaire Wannabe would be chomping at the bits to take that case!

Truth is truly stranger than fiction!

Bob,

Thank you for my Sabbath uplift this week.

I have heard the Word spoken through you in the Spirit of the God I know and love!

Thank you for your messages. God, through you, has touched me, and I have grown.

[Artiste]

I saw the program and agree. Then it occurred to me as I watched that it is possible for 3ABN to solicit the aid of Religious Liberty to save 3ABN from the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Now, that would be interesting. We could have Religious Liberty defending 3ABN from/for (???) the Seventh-day Adventist World Church.

Amazing! What a fascinating idea!

Tonight Danny has the President of the Southern African Indian Ocean Division, Paul Ratsara, in his interview. Here again, he seemed to be pointing out very happily and redundantly the man's position as divison president.

I was under the impression that division presidents were vice-presidents of the General Conference and so would come under the category of people that were not going to be involving themselves with 3abn. Was that not correct?

Paul Ratsara was expressing his support for 3abn and Danny Shelton.

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This post has been edited by Artiste: Jun 30 2007, 01:15 AM

[Panama_Pete]

I was under the impression that division presidents were vice-presidents of the General Conference and so would come under the category of people that were not going to be involving themselves with 3abn. Was that not correct?

Paul Ratsara was expressing his support for 3abn and Danny Shelton.

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One robin does not make spring.



This post has been edited by Panama_Pete: Jun 30 2007, 04:28 AM

[Johann]

Amazing! What a fascinating idea!

Tonight Danny has the President of the Southern African Indian Ocean Division, Paul Ratsara, in his interview. Here again, he seemed to be pointing out very happily and redundantly the man's position as divison president.

I was under the impression that division presidents were vice-presidents of the General Conference and so would come under the category of people that were not going to be involving themselves with 3abn. Was that not correct?

Paul Ratsara was expressing his support for 3abn and Danny Shelton.

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Last time I watched 3ABN I noticed that much of what was shown are items recorded up to 10 years ago. Is it possible that this interview was recorded before the ban?

[lurker]

Either that or Danny is being very defiant. You know, just daring somebody to do or say something about it. I noticed he had a tape of Gerri Lynn Mendenhall on today singing and Tommy was playing the piano (one song only). Their names were equally featured on the credits for that song.

This post has been edited by lurker: Jun 30 2007, 09:20 PM

[Richard Sherwin]

Elder Ratsara was here for Michigan camp meeting last weekend so my guess is it's current.

Last time I watched 3ABN I noticed that much of what was shown are items recorded up to 10 years ago. Is it possible that this interview was recorded before the ban?

[Ephphatha]

I disagree that "3ABN may be owned by an Adventist." It is a 501©3 tax-exempt organization which means to me that it is "owned" by its donors. The president of a for-profit corporation does not "own" it - the stockholders do. If 3ABN were to dissolve, its assets would have to be distrubuted to another tax-exempt organization or be turned over to the federal government. DS does not "own" 3ABN.
Edit note: Can't get the "c" in the parentheses without it turning into the copyright symbol...

Regardless of the status of the organization, the "owner" is the person who runs it. He decides what happens and when. Donors can pull out, but it is up to the "owner" to replace those donors. And if he is one of the donors, he is an "owner", which I assure you, he is.

[awesumtenor]

I have yet to run into any Adventist that believes the Adventist Church is infallible. To the contrary, Adventism teaches that the Laodicean message applies to itself, and that is anything but complimentary.

Last Sabbath in my sermon we covered the message to the church of Ephesus, as a springboard. I asked folks if they thought our first love had grown dim, and they felt it had. That shows anything but a belief in our church's infallability.

While this may be your experience, Bob, my mileage, and, I am sure, that of many others has varied. I have, in this forum alone, come across Adventists who ascribe some infallibility to the church, to Adventism and the Adventist sub-culture and to Ellen White, both in her person and in her writings. I have encountered people who believe that EGW will get them to heaven. I have encountered Adventists who believe the Laodicean condition only applies to those who do not adhere to "the old landmarks". I have heard preached from Adventist pulpits that we are capable of achieving sinless perfection in and of ourselves and we must do so before the end of probation where we will have to stand before God without an intercessor. I have heard it preached that there is no salvation outside the "ark of safety" that is Adventism... and on and on.

I am not suggesting that your experience is not as you have said; I am merely pointing out that your experience is not ubiquitous and your not having experienced these things does not mean they cannot or do not exist as firmly held beliefs by members of the Adventist church.

In His service,
Mr. J