The 3abn Massachusetts Lawsuit Poll Options

[Snoopy]

Regardless of the status of the organization, the "owner" is the person who runs it. He decides what happens and when. Donors can pull out, but it is up to the "owner" to replace those donors. And if he is one of the donors, he is an "owner", which I assure you, he is.

So I guess Ken Lay owned Enron.....

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree with you and I assure you the former Enron stockholders would as well.

This post has been edited by Snoopy: Jul 2 2007, 12:36 PM

[awesumtenor]

Regardless of the status of the organization, the "owner" is the person who runs it. He decides what happens and when. Donors can pull out, but it is up to the "owner" to replace those donors. And if he is one of the donors, he is an "owner", which I assure you, he is.

So your pastor and the church board "own" the church you attend?

Consider this parable from Christ...

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him]. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Christ's Object Lessons, pp 296-306:

The parable of the vineyard applies not alone to the Jewish nation. It has a lesson for us. The church in this generation has been endowed by God with great privileges and blessings, and He expects corresponding returns. {COL 296.2}

We have been redeemed by a costly ransom. Only by the greatness of this ransom can we conceive of its results. On this earth, the earth whose soil has been moistened by the tears and blood of the Son of God, are to be brought forth the precious fruits of Paradise. In the lives of God's people the truths of His word are to reveal their glory and excellence. Through His people Christ is to manifest His character and the principles of His kingdom. {COL 296.3}

Satan seeks to counterwork the work of God, and he is constantly urging men to accept his principles. He represents the chosen people of God as a deluded people. He is an accuser of the brethren, and his accusing power is employed against those who work righteousness. The Lord desires through His people to answer Satan's charges by showing the results of obedience to right principles. {COL 296.4}

These principles are to be manifest in the individual Christian, in the family, in the church, and in every institution established for God's service. All are to be symbols of
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what can be done for the world. They are to be types of the saving power of the truths of the gospel. All are agencies in the fulfillment of God's great purpose for the human race. {COL 296.5}

The Jewish leaders looked with pride upon their magnificent temple, and the imposing rites of their religious service; but justice, mercy, and the love of God were lacking. The glory of the temple, the splendor of their service, could not recommend them to God; for that which alone is of value in His sight they did not offer. They did not bring Him the sacrifice of a humble and contrite spirit. It is when the vital principles of the kingdom of God are lost that ceremonies become multitudinous and extravagant.
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It is when the character building is neglected, when the adornment of the soul is lacking, when the simplicity of godliness is lost sight of, that pride and love of display demand magnificent church edifices, splendid adornings, and imposing ceremonials. In all this God is not honored. A fashionable religion that consists of ceremonies, pretense, and display, is not acceptable to Him. Its services call forth no response from the heavenly messengers. {COL 297.1}

The church is very precious in God's sight. He values it, not for its external advantages, but for the sincere piety which distinguishes it from the world. He estimates it according to the growth of the members in the knowledge of Christ, according to their progress in spiritual experience. {COL 298.1}

Christ hungers to receive from His vineyard the fruit of holiness and unselfishness. He looks for the principles of love and goodness. Not all the beauty of art can bear comparison with the beauty of temper and character to be revealed in those who are Christ's representatives. It is the atmosphere of grace which surrounds the soul of the believer, the Holy Spirit working upon mind and heart, that makes him a savor of life unto life, and enables God to bless his work. {COL 298.2}

A congregation may be the poorest in the land. It may be without the attraction of any outward show; but if the members possess the principles of the character of Christ, they will have His joy in their souls. Angels will unite with them in their worship. The praise and thanksgiving from grateful hearts will ascend to God as a sweet oblation. {COL 298.3}

The Lord desires us to make mention of His goodness and tell of His power. He is honored by the expression of praise and thanksgiving. He says, "Whoso offereth praise glorifieth Me." Ps. 50:23. The people of Israel, as they
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journeyed through the wilderness, praised God in sacred song. The commandments and promises of the Lord were set to music, and all along the journey these were sung by the pilgrim travelers. And in Canaan as they met at their sacred feasts God's wonderful works were to be recounted, and grateful thanksgiving was to be offered to His name. God desired that the whole life of His people should be a life of praise. Thus His way was to be made "known upon earth," His "saving health among all nations." Ps. 67:2. {COL 298.4}

So it should be now. The people of the world are worshiping false gods. They are to be turned from their false worship, not by hearing denunciation of their idols, but by beholding something better. God's goodness is to be made known. "Ye are My witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God." Isa. 43:12. {COL 299.1}

The Lord desires us to appreciate the great plan of redemption, to realize our high privilege as the children of God, and to walk before Him in obedience, with grateful thanksgiving. He desires us to serve Him in newness of life, with gladness every day. He longs to see gratitude welling up in our hearts because our names are written in the Lamb's book of life, because we may cast all our care upon Him who cares for us. He bids us rejoice because we are the heritage of the Lord, because the righteousness of Christ is the white robe of His saints, because we have the blessed hope of the soon coming of our Saviour. {COL 299.2}

To praise God in fullness and sincerity of heart is as much a duty as is prayer. We are to show to the world and to all the heavenly intelligences that we appreciate the wonderful love of God for fallen humanity and that we are expecting larger and yet larger blessings from His infinite fullness. Far more than we do, we need to speak of the precious chapters in our experience. After a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit, our joy in the Lord and our
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efficiency in His service would be greatly increased by recounting His goodness and His wonderful works in behalf of His children. {COL 299.3}

These exercises drive back the power of Satan. They expel the spirit of murmuring and complaint, and the tempter loses ground. They cultivate those attributes of character which will fit the dwellers on earth for the heavenly mansions. {COL 300.1}

Such a testimony will have an influence upon others. No more effective means can be employed for winning souls to Christ. {COL 300.2}

We are to praise God by tangible service, by doing all in our power to advance the glory of His name. God imparts His gifts to us that we also may give, and thus make known His character to the world. Under the Jewish economy, gifts and offerings formed an essential part of God's worship. The Israelites were taught to devote a tithe of all their income to the service of the sanctuary. Besides this they were to bring sin offerings, free-will gifts, and offerings of gratitude. These were the means for supporting the ministry of the gospel for that time. God expects no less from us than He expected from His people anciently. The great work for the salvation of souls must be carried forward. In the tithe, with gifts and offerings, He has made provision for this work. Thus He intends that the ministry of the gospel shall be sustained. He claims the tithe as His own, and it should ever be regarded as a sacred reserve, to be placed in His treasury for the benefit of His cause. He asks also for our free-will gifts and offerings of gratitude. All are to be devoted to the sending of the gospel unto the uttermost parts of the earth. {COL 300.3}

Service to God includes personal ministry. By personal effort we are to co-operate with Him for the saving of the world. Christ's commission, "Go ye into all the world, and
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preach the gospel to every creature," is spoken to every one of His followers. (Mark 16:15.) All who are ordained unto the life of Christ are ordained to work for the salvation of their fellow men. Their hearts will throb in unison with the heart of Christ. The same longing for souls that He has felt will be manifest in them. Not all can fill the same place in the work, but there is a place and a work for all. {COL 300.4}

In ancient times, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses with his meekness and wisdom, and Joshua with his varied capabilities, were all enlisted in God's service. The music of Miriam, the courage and piety of Deborah, the filial affection of Ruth, the obedience and faithfulness of Samuel, the stern fidelity of Elijah, the softening, subduing influence of Elisha--all were needed. So now all upon whom God's blessing has been bestowed are to respond by actual service; every gift is to be employed for the advancement of His kingdom and the glory of His name. {COL 301.1}

All who receive Christ as a personal Saviour are to demonstrate the truth of the gospel and its saving power upon the life. God makes no requirement without making provision for its fulfillment. Through the grace of Christ we may accomplish everything that God requires. All the riches of heaven are to be revealed through God's people. "Herein is My Father glorified," Christ says, "that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be My disciples." John 15:8. {COL 301.2}

God claims the whole earth as His vineyard. Though now in the hands of the usurper, it belongs to God. By redemption no less than by creation it is His. For the world Christ's sacrifice was made. "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son." John 3:16. It is through that one gift that every other is imparted to men. Daily the whole world receives blessing from God. Every drop of rain, every ray of light shed on our unthankful
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race, every leaf and flower and fruit, testifies to God's long forbearance and His great love. {COL 301.3}

And what returns are made to the great Giver? How are men treating the claims of God? To whom are the masses of mankind giving the service of their lives? They are serving mammon. Wealth, position, pleasure in the world, is their aim. Wealth is gained by robbery, not of man only, but of God. Men are using His gifts to gratify their selfishness. Everything they can grasp is made to minister to their greed and their love of selfish pleasure. {COL 302.1}

The sin of the world today is the sin that brought destruction upon Israel. Ingratitude to God, the neglect of opportunities and blessings, the selfish appropriation of God's gifts--these were comprised in the sin that brought wrath upon Israel. They are bringing ruin upon the world today. {COL 302.2}

The tears which Christ shed upon Olivet as He stood overlooking the chosen city were not for Jerusalem alone. In the fate of Jerusalem He beheld the destruction of the world. {COL 302.3}

"If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes." Luke 19:42. {COL 302.4}

"In this thy day." The day is nearing its close. The period of mercy and privilege is well-nigh ended. The clouds of vengeance are gathering. The rejectors of God's grace are about to be involved in swift and irretrievable ruin. {COL 302.5}

Yet the world is asleep. The people know not the time of their visitation. {COL 302.6}

In this crisis, where is the church to be found? Are its members meeting the claims of God? Are they fulfilling His commission, and representing His character to the world? Are they urging upon the attention of their fellow men the last merciful message of warning?
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{COL 302.7}

Men are in peril. Multitudes are perishing. But how few of the professed followers of Christ are burdened for these souls. The destiny of a world hangs in the balance; but this hardly moves even those who claim to believe the most far-reaching truth ever given to mortals. There is a lack of that love which led Christ to leave His heavenly home and take man's nature that humanity might touch humanity and draw humanity to divinity. There is a stupor, a paralysis, upon the people of God, which prevents them from understanding the duty of the hour. {COL 303.1}

When the Israelites entered Canaan, they did not fulfill God's purpose by taking possession of the whole land. After making a partial conquest, they settled down to enjoy the fruit of their victories. In their unbelief and love of ease, they congregated in the portions already conquered instead of pushing forward to occupy new territory. Thus they began to depart from God. By their failure to carry out His purpose, they made it impossible for Him to fulfill to them His promise of blessing. Is not the church of today doing the same thing? With the whole world before them in need of the gospel, professed Christians congregate where they themselves can enjoy gospel privileges. They do not feel the necessity of occupying new territory, carrying the message of salvation into regions beyond. They refuse to fulfill Christ's commission, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:15. Are they less guilty than was the Jewish church? {COL 303.2}

The professed followers of Christ are on trial before the heavenly universe; but the coldness of their zeal and the feebleness of their efforts in God's service mark them as unfaithful. If what they are doing were the best they could do, condemnation would not rest upon them; but were their hearts enlisted in the work, they could do much more.
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They know and the world knows that they have to a great degree lost the spirit of self-denial and cross bearing. Many there are against whose names will be found written in the books of heaven, Not producers, but consumers. By many who bear Christ's name, His glory is obscured, His beauty veiled, His honor withheld. {COL 303.3}

There are many whose names are on the church books, but who are not under Christ's rule. They are not heeding His instruction or doing His work. Therefore they are under the control of the enemy. They are doing no positive good; therefore they are doing incalculable harm. Because their influence is not a savor of life unto life, it is a savor of death unto death. {COL 304.1}

The Lord says, "Shall I not visit for these things?" Jer. 5:9. Because they failed of fulfilling God's purpose, the children of Israel were set aside, and God's call was extended to other peoples. If these too prove unfaithful, will they not in like manner be rejected? {COL 304.2}

In the parable of the vineyard it was the husbandmen whom Christ pronounced guilty. It was they who had refused to return to their lord the fruit of his ground. In the Jewish nation it was the priests and teachers who, by misleading the people, had robbed God of the service which He claimed. It was they who turned the nation away from Christ. {COL 304.3}

The law of God unmixed with human tradition was presented by Christ as the great standard of obedience. This aroused the enmity of the rabbis. They had set human teaching above God's word, and had turned the people away from His precepts. They would not give up their man-made commandments in order to obey the requirements of the word of God. They would not, for the truth's sake, sacrifice the pride of reason and the praise of men. When Christ came, presenting to the nation the
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claims of God, the priests and elders denied His right to interpose between them and the people. They would not accept His rebukes and warnings, and they set themselves to turn the people against Him and to compass His destruction. {COL 304.4}

For the rejection of Christ, with the results that followed, they were responsible. A nation's sin and a nation's ruin were due to the religious leaders. {COL 305.1}

In our day are not the same influences at work? Of the husbandmen of the Lord's vineyard are not many following in the steps of the Jewish leaders? Are not religious teachers turning men away from the plain requirements of the word of God? Instead of educating them in obedience to God's law, are they not educating them in transgression? From many of the pulpits of the churches the people are taught that the law of God is not binding upon them. Human traditions, ordinances, and customs are exalted. Pride and self-satisfaction because of the gifts of God are fostered, while the claims of God are ignored. {COL 305.2}

In setting aside the law of God, men know not what they are doing. God's law is the transcript of His character. It embodies the principles of His kingdom. He who refuses to accept these principles is placing himself outside the channel where God's blessings flow. {COL 305.3}

The glorious possibilities set before Israel could be realized only through obedience to God's commandments. The same elevation of character, the same fulness of blessing--blessing on mind and soul and body, blessing on house and field, blessing for this life and for the life to come--is possible for us only through obedience. {COL 305.4}

In the spiritual as in the natural world, obedience to the laws of God is the condition of fruit bearing. And when men teach the people to disregard God's commandments, they are preventing them from bearing fruit to His glory.
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They are guilty of withholding from the Lord the fruits of His vineyard. {COL 305.5}

To us God's messengers come at the bidding of the Master. They come demanding, as did Christ, obedience to the word of God. They present His claim to the fruits of the vineyard, the fruits of love, and humility, and self-sacrificing service. Like the Jewish leaders, are not many of the husbandmen of the vineyard stirred to anger? When the claim of God's law is set before the people, do not these teachers use their influence in leading men to reject it? Such teachers God calls unfaithful servants. {COL 306.1}

The words of God to ancient Israel have a solemn warning to the church and its leaders today. Of Israel the Lord said, "I have written to him the great things of My law; but they were counted as a strange thing." Hosea 8:12. And to the priests and teachers He declared, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee; . . . seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." Hosea 4:6. {COL 306.2}

Shall the warnings from God be passed by unheeded? Shall the opportunities for service be unimproved? Shall the world's scorn, the pride of reason, conformity to human customs and traditions, hold the professed followers of Christ from service to Him? Will they reject God's word as the Jewish leaders rejected Christ? The result of Israel's sin is before us. Will the church of today take warning? {COL 306.3}

"If some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; boast not. . . . Because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear; for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee." Rom. 11:17-21. {COL 306.4}

When dealing with the church of God no man is the owner of anything; any who thinks otherwise is no better than those unprofitable servants in the parable noted above... and as a partaker in their sins, they are due their reward.

Selah.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Ian]

So I guess Ken Lay owned Enron.....

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree with you and I assure you the former Enron stockholders would as well.

Hello,

I am confused by these arguments. Where did this idea come from?

How can Christians who donate to a ministry or give free will offerings be stockholders?

We are supposed to give freely, as God has given to us, with no strings attached.

We have no stocks to sell to another. There are no meetings where we have a right to a vote. We aren't purchasing part of a company when we donate to a ministry.


I just don't understand how claiming to be stockholders is biblical. It doesn't seem very accurate according to civil laws either.

Too bad though. If you all were really stockholders you could buy up all the stocks and stage a hostile takeover of 3ABN and force them to do what you want.

That doesn'tt sound very Godly either though.

This post has been edited by Ian: Jul 2 2007, 02:31 PM

[awesumtenor]

Hello,

I am confused by these arguments. Where did this idea come from?

How can Christians who donate to a ministry or give free will offerings be stockholders?

We are supposed to give freely, as God has given to us, with no strings attached.

We have no stocks to sell to another. There are no meetings where we have a right to a vote. We aren't purchasing part of a company when we donate to a ministry.
I just don't understand how claiming to be stockholders is biblical. It doesn't seem very accurate according to civil laws either.

Too bad though. If you all were really stockholders you could buy up all the stocks and stage a hostile takeover of 3ABN and force them to do what you want.

That doesn'tt sound very Godly either though.

The discussion was from the perspective of perceived culpability from the government standpoint. Charitable organizations that accept donations have a fiduciary responsibility to those donors to be good stewards of those donated funds. 3ABN, as a gospel ministry is not the personal possession of Danny... or even of the 3ABN board... and AF is not the possession of DB or of the Northern California Conference.

The true owner is God; both of those men and both of those organizations areto represent the owner in the management and maintaining of them but what they reap belongs to the owner, not to the stewards in the owner's employ.

One of these organizations seems to gets this... and one of them does not.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Richard Sherwin]

Well said for a tenor

The discussion was from the perspective of perceived culpability from the government standpoint. Charitable organizations that accept donations have a fiduciary responsibility to those donors to be good stewards of those donated funds. 3ABN, as a gospel ministry is not the personal possession of Danny... or even of the 3ABN board... and AF is not the possession of DB or of the Northern California Conference.

The true owner is God; both of those men and both of those organizations areto represent the owner in the management and maintaining of them but what they reap belongs to the owner, not to the stewards in the owner's employ.

One of these organizations seems to gets this... and one of them does not.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Panama_Pete]

Hello,

How can Christians who donate to a ministry or give free will offerings be stockholders?

I prefer the term stakeholder, not stockholder. Stakeholder theory recognizes that the actions of one person affect many.

For instance, one restaurant infested with rats can affect the reputation of every other restaurant that carries the same name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stakeholder_theory

"stakeholder theory recognizes that there are other parties involved, including governmental bodies, political groups, trade associations, trade unions, communities, associated corporations, prospective employees, prospective customers, and the public at large. Sometimes even competitors are counted as stakeholders."

This post has been edited by Panama_Pete: Jul 2 2007, 05:25 PM

[Ephphatha]

So I guess Ken Lay owned Enron.....

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree with you and I assure you the former Enron stockholders would as well.

Did the stock holders get arrested when Enron went down?

So your pastor and the church board "own" the church you attend?

Consider this parable from Christ...

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him]. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Christ's Object Lessons, pp 296-306:
When dealing with the church of God no man is the owner of anything; any who thinks otherwise is no better than those unprofitable servants in the parable noted above... and as a partaker in their sins, they are due their reward.

Selah.

In His service,
Mr. J

3ABN is neither the church, nor is it run by the church, nor is run like a church, so there is no comparison.

The Pastor and Church Board are held to the standards of the church as an organization. As in they can make all the decisions they want to about the church as long as it stays within the guidelines of the world church. Otherwise it is no longer recognized as a part of the World Church body.

That doesn't apply to Mr. Shelton. Shareholders own nothing, but the right to make money off of a business they are contributing money to. If all the shareholders pulled out of 3ABN and Danny was able to find replacement donors, he'd still be the head honcho, still the owner, he'd just have found someone esle's money to use.

[awesumtenor]

Did the stock holders get arrested when Enron went down?

The ones that made millions while the rest lost everything were most certainly arrested, tried and convicted.

3ABN is neither the church, nor is it run by the church, nor is run like a church, so there is no comparison.

http://www.3abn.org/pdf/commitment.pdf

The document at the above link says otherwise.

The Pastor and Church Board are held to the standards of the church as an organization. As in they can make all the decisions they want to about the church as long as it stays within the guidelines of the world church. Otherwise it is no longer recognized as a part of the World Church body.

I again refer you to the document linked above.

That doesn't apply to Mr. Shelton. Shareholders own nothing, but the right to make money off of a business they are contributing money to. If all the shareholders pulled out of 3ABN and Danny was able to find replacement donors, he'd still be the head honcho, still the owner, he'd just have found someone esle's money to use.

Please read Panama Pete's post on stakeholders vs. shareholders. Only for profit businesses have shareholders. 3ABN is, by it's own admission, supposed to be a not for profit gospel ministry that, while not run by the Seventh-day Adventist church shares a joint committment with the Seventh-day Adventist church to put forth the gospel and encourage people to join said church... as the self-appointed "public face of Adventism", all Adventists are stakeholders in what they do, whether good or bad.

If he wants to make 3abn a for profit television network and own it, that is fine... but as long as it is supposed to be a gospel ministry, danny is a steward... not an owner... and as such he is usurping the place of the owner when he tries to be treated as such. If the entity is not viable without his being in charge, then it was never what it claimed to be... ever... no matter how many people think it led them to Christ.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Ephphatha]

The ones that made millions while the rest lost everything were most certainly arrested, tried and convicted.
http://www.3abn.org/pdf/commitment.pdf

The document at the above link says otherwise.
I again refer you to the document linked above.
Please read Panama Pete's post on stakeholders vs. shareholders. Only for profit businesses have shareholders. 3ABN is, by it's own admission, supposed to be a not for profit gospel ministry that, while not run by the Seventh-day Adventist church shares a joint committment with the Seventh-day Adventist church to put forth the gospel and encourage people to join said church... as the self-appointed "public face of Adventism", all Adventists are stakeholders in what they do, whether good or bad.

If he wants to make 3abn a for profit television network and own it, that is fine... but as long as it is supposed to be a gospel ministry, danny is a steward... not an owner... and as such he is usurping the place of the owner when he tries to be treated as such. If the entity is not viable without his being in charge, then it was never what it claimed to be... ever... no matter how many people think it led them to Christ.

In His service,
Mr. J

I think that is the point that a lot people are trying to make on here. 3ABN, despite what it has been saying, is never what it claimed to be, ever. If it were, things like this wouldn't be taking place or being permitted to continue.

And contrary to popular belief, just because something isn't what it appears or claims to be, doesn't mean it cannot lead someone toward the correct path.

[beartrap]

That doesn't apply to Mr. Shelton. Shareholders own nothing, but the right to make money off of a business they are contributing money to. If all the shareholders pulled out of 3ABN and Danny was able to find replacement donors, he'd still be the head honcho, still the owner, he'd just have found someone esle's money to use.

Danny will disagree strongly with you on that point. If Danny owned 3ABN, Linda would be legally entitled to take half of the company's assets.

This post has been edited by beartrap: Jul 3 2007, 08:53 AM

[lurker]

It has been said before. It bears being said again. He wants it to be treated as a ministry when it suits his purposes, and as a company when that serves him better.

And as the property tax lawsuit indicated, it is hard to tell if 3ABN and Danny are one and the same or not. Where does one leave off and the other begin?

Is it a for profit company masquerading as a non profit? Is 3ABN serving Danny or is Danny a servant? Is his heart committed to helping people or is he covertly dipping into the till?

This post has been edited by lurker: Jul 3 2007, 11:52 AM

[Rosyroi]

Danny will disagree strongly with you on that point. If Danny owned 3ABN, Linda would be legally entitled to take half of the company's assets.

I remember the first time he said something to the discussion about him not owning 3ABN. That was soon after Linda disappeared and those nasty rumors 3ABN circulated around.


The big shots knew how to get the word out. Send letters to elderly ladies who are heavily involved in sending their monies to 3ABN. Let those dear sweet old ladies do the rest.
IMHO
rosyroi

[Snoopy]

Poor Ian. I am so sorry that you are confused. I am certain that things will become much clearer for you as time marches by.

Hello,

I am confused by these arguments. Where did this idea come from?

How can Christians who donate to a ministry or give free will offerings be stockholders?

We are supposed to give freely, as God has given to us, with no strings attached.

We have no stocks to sell to another. There are no meetings where we have a right to a vote. We aren't purchasing part of a company when we donate to a ministry.
I just don't understand how claiming to be stockholders is biblical. It doesn't seem very accurate according to civil laws either.

Too bad though. If you all were really stockholders you could buy up all the stocks and stage a hostile takeover of 3ABN and force them to do what you want.

That doesn'tt sound very Godly either though.

[Pickle]

While this may be your experience, Bob, my mileage, and, I am sure, that of many others has varied. I have, in this forum alone, come across Adventists who ascribe some infallibility to the church, to Adventism and the Adventist sub-culture and to Ellen White, both in her person and in her writings. I have encountered people who believe that EGW will get them to heaven. I have encountered Adventists who believe the Laodicean condition only applies to those who do not adhere to "the old landmarks". I have heard preached from Adventist pulpits that we are capable of achieving sinless perfection in and of ourselves and we must do so before the end of probation where we will have to stand before God without an intercessor. I have heard it preached that there is no salvation outside the "ark of safety" that is Adventism... and on and on.

I am not suggesting that your experience is not as you have said; I am merely pointing out that your experience is not ubiquitous and your not having experienced these things does not mean they cannot or do not exist as firmly held beliefs by members of the Adventist church.

In His service,
Mr. J

Since I have had to meet with criticisms coming from those outside of our faith, my perspective may be a little different. And that has probably helped me in dealing with this whole 3ABN saga.

For example, when I read the above opinions you say you have run across, I ask myself if the ones you have ascribed these opinions to would agree with your assessment. I wonder if perhaps you are rewording what they have said according to how they are coming across to you rather than using words they have actually used. Could that be the case?

It is difficult for me to imagine anyone saying any of the items you have stated, using those words or even close synonyms. And that difficulty comes after talking to many, many people in many places.

[YogusBearus]

Since I have had to meet with criticisms coming from those outside of our faith, my perspective may be a little different. And that has probably helped me in dealing with this whole 3ABN saga.

For example, when I read the above opinions you say you have run across, I ask myself if the ones you have ascribed these opinions to would agree with your assessment. I wonder if perhaps you are rewording what they have said according to how they are coming across to you rather than using words they have actually used. Could that be the case?

It is difficult for me to imagine anyone saying any of the items you have stated, using those words or even close synonyms. And that difficulty comes after talking to many, many people in many places.

Oh please Bob, I can't believe you really think that. I'm very familiar with the area you live in and probably know many of the same people. They are good people, but I know for a certainty that many have the exact set of beliefs that AT is describing. Is that thinking starting to die out? Thankfully yes. Do a number of members/churches still lean that way. Unfortunately yes.

-bear