The 3abn Massachusetts Lawsuit Poll Options

[Clay]

I'll never forget when our son, who was a teenager by then, learned of a family in another state who had begun attending church because of 3ABN. He said "Oh, I didn't know 3ABN brought people to church. I thought they watched it so they didn't have to go!" I had not thought of it that way, but that was the only thing he had been exposed to up to that point.

therein lies the problem, people are under the mistaken impression that 3abn has "brought people into the church." They have done no such thing. People are brought into the church by God. The bible makes that plain.
1Cor 3:1-7

My friends, you are acting like the people of this world. That's why I could not speak to you as spiritual people. You are like babies as far as your faith in Christ is concerned. (2) So I had to treat you like babies and feed you milk. You could not take solid food, and you still cannot, (3) because you are not yet spiritual. You are jealous and argue with each other. This proves that you are not spiritual and that you are acting like the people of this world. (4) Some of you say that you follow me, and others claim to follow Apollos. Isn't that how ordinary people behave? (5) Apollos and I are merely servants who helped you to have faith. It was the Lord who made it all happen. (6) I planted the seeds, Apollos watered them, but God made them sprout and grow. (7) What matters isn't those who planted or watered, but God who made the plants grow.

So we probably need to re-educate ourselves and reject the hype by those who point to 3abn as bringing people into the church, they did not bring anyone, God did....

[PeacefulBe]

therein lies the problem, people are under the mistaken impression that 3abn has "brought people into the church." They have done no such thing. People are brought into the church by God. The bible makes that plain.
1Cor 3:1-7

So we probably need to re-educate ourselves and reject the hype by those who point to 3abn as bringing people into the church, they did not bring anyone, God did....

Great points, Clay and I almost totally agree with you. My only exception is that the type of seed is also vitally important. If you plant bad seed, you tend to grow a weed, IMO.

[FineArt]

I am thinking about the commission that God gave the apostles. "Go into all the world teaching and baptizing........" .[paraphrase] and realize he wants to use people to save souls. The parables teach this. Yes, the Holy Spirit convicts and converts and no heart can fall in love with Jesus without the Holy Spirit...

God needs EMPTY VESSELS to use...that is what is hard to find. We are so full of ourselves. I am so full of myself where is there room for Jesus,

Some are used in spite of themselves.....even Judas worked miracles.

[Clay]

I am thinking about the commission that God gave the apostles. "Go into all the world teaching and baptizing........" .[paraphrase] and realize he wants to use people to save souls. The parables teach this. Yes, the Holy Spirit convicts and converts and no heart can fall in love with Jesus without the Holy Spirit...

God needs EMPTY VESSELS to use...that is what is hard to find. We are so full of ourselves. I am so full of myself where is there room for Jesus,

Some are used in spite of themselves.....even Judas worked miracles.

a better rendering would be "go make disciples." I would submit that it has been the "teaching and baptizing" that has lead to the mess we find ourselves in. Making disciples encompasses more than just teaching and baptizing, as we are finding out given the attrition rate of the church.

[FineArt]

finart said:
God needs EMPTY VESSELS to use...that is what is hard to find. We are so full of ourselves. I am so full of myself where is there room for Jesus,

Some are used in spite of themselves.....even Judas worked miracles.



Clay, i agree and the problem is what i have stated above......where are the empty vessles? Disciples are willing to follow Him where ever He leads. Following Jesus is not following man but man can point to Jesus. and a wise man follows Jesus in His strength not mans.

I guess i said man enough times. I guess i am puting this in the context of DS .

[Clay]

fair enough.... perhaps what you are suggesting is that if we introduce people to Jesus fully and completely, and get out of the way He would work miracles in their lives, but we seem to get in the way?

[sdaguy]

I did vote, of course for the, “Donors give thinking 3ABN is somehow part of the mission of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, a specific denomination.” But, I really believe that 3ABN is part of the mission of the SDA Church!

I have a question; “I heard to something like this, "That the GC back in the early 90’s tried to have 3ABN part of the GC, which Danny said, ‘NO!’ So, then the GC back down and Danny had a "Joint Declaration of Commitment” drawn up between the two. Therefore, Danny is using that “Declaration” to fleece the SDA flock for money.” Does anyone here really believes that lie?

For that is NOT TRUE! “The Joint Declaration of Commitment” between 3ABN and the GC shows that 3ABN is one in mission with the GC! Therefore, all the “Donors give thinking 3ABN is somehow part of the mission of the Seventh-day Adventist Church," are very right to believe this and thus are right to give their money to 3ABN! For sure, the, "Joint Declaration of Commitment" is the very heart of 3ABN!!!

This post has been edited by sdaguy: Jun 25 2007, 01:07 PM

[erik]

Forum friends of Danny,


The sentence in the lawsuit that got this whole poll going is the first of what i am sure will be tons of sentences that will hurt Danny case and the support of 3abn much more then the will web sites of Blacksda and Save3abn.com


The lawyers ware going to try to win he case in court, and Danny might very well win and even win big in court. But he will most likely find that winning in court and winning the hearts and souls of teh Sda church back are two very different creatures.

I hope for his sake that he finds the path of forgiveness and and drops the lawsuit, because the only ones winning right are the lawyers that are collecting checks.

erik

[FineArt]

fair enough.... perhaps what you are suggesting is that if we introduce people to Jesus fully and completely, and get out of the way He would work miracles in their lives, but we seem to get in the way?

You surely say that better than i did....that is exactly what i mean.

[watchbird]

finart said:
God needs EMPTY VESSELS to use...that is what is hard to find. We are so full of ourselves. I am so full of myself where is there room for Jesus,

What I'm wondering is where the "empty vessels" concept came from......

[FineArt]

Well WB,

Matt. 25: 1-13 could be of help.

There is a strong princible throughout the Bible that man can be posessed by the devil or by the Holy Spirit. Man is the vessel as you know. Man is the one who fills self with self.....or allows God to fill him with His Spirit. You either walk in the flesh or walk in the spirit.

You know the answer, you just want to play.

Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

[Panama_Pete]

I did vote, of course for the, “Donors give thinking 3ABN is somehow part of the mission of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, a specific denomination.” But, I really believe that 3ABN is part of the mission of the SDA Church!

I have a question; “I heard to something like this, "That the GC back in the early 90’s tried to have 3ABN part of the GC, which Danny said, ‘NO!’ So, then the GC back down and Danny had a "Joint Declaration of Commitment” drawn up between the two. Therefore, Danny is using that “Declaration” to fleece the SDA flock for money.” Does anyone here really believes that lie?

For that is NOT TRUE! “The Joint Declaration of Commitment” between 3ABN and the GC shows that 3ABN is one in mission with the GC! Therefore, all the “Donors give thinking 3ABN is somehow part of the mission of the Seventh-day Adventist Church," are very right to believe this and thus are right to give their money to 3ABN! For sure, the, "Joint Declaration of Commitment" is the very heart of 3ABN!!!

You make some very good points, Sdaguy. However, let me put this case into some context. Danny Shelton, Plaintiff, has asked for a jury trial. The document says this:

JURY DEMAND
Plaintiff hereby demands a trial by jury for all issues so triable.

So, we have to consider what a group of typical Massachusetts jurors will believe. Will a group of people, taken randomly off the streets, believe what Sdaguy believes?

I think that Danny Shelton fully intends to present the theory published in his lawsuit and submitted into court.

That theory seems to be that 3ABN is not affiliated with any specific denomination, and therefore, the Save3ABN.com Web site is off base and has absolutely no business holding 3ABN up to the specific denominational standards of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, or any other church or organization, since 3ABN - the corporation -- does not necessarily subscribe to those doctrines, being an independent, non-denominational ministry.

Furthermore, Danny's lawyers may instruct the jurors that they should agree with Danny Shelton and be equally puzzled as to why a group from one particular denomination would be holding 3ABN up to the standards of their own, peculiar, but irrelevant denomination.

I think they wanted the lawsuit sealed -- in part -- because they plan to deny their connections and involvement with the SDA Church -- to win at any cost -- and they didn't want their donors to see them do that.

Then, after 3ABN wins their suit (supposedly) it's back to the Adventist Churches to shake down the membership for donations to help "counteract the counterfeit" and present their "undiluted Three Angels' messages," no worse for wear.

That's my take.

This post has been edited by Panama_Pete: Jun 25 2007, 03:57 PM

[mozart]

God's Truth and our Christian friends and family is our church Snoop. that's where the blessing is. IMO-the "organization" is more like a thorn in our side. something we have to persevere with until we see there is no more hope for it to ever walk that straight and narrow path. some say that the organization won't ever fall. personally, i think that it's awful close and has been on the tippy-toe edge for a long time.
JMHO

Great point, Artiste! I wonder if Pastor Doug knew that he is planning a merger of his clearly affiliated Seventh-day Adventist evangelism/ministry with a non-denominational, independent, accountable-to-no-one organization...

Didn't I just read a post here where someone tried to contact AF about this fiasco but received a chilly response because AF thought the caller was connected with BSDA? Wonder how AF would respond now??? Having no connection with AF and a waning connection with the SDA church I am probably not the one to check that out. This is all really sad. I had just started to get interested in the church again but this is all a real turn-off. BTJM

well, i think that the "defendents" just need to gather documented evidence that shows 3ABN stating it is SDA. is it possible that we all have just "assumed" that all these years? as someone stated above, why would they have a "cease fire" agreement with the GC of a church that they are "not affiliated with"? (i remember when that happened and DS had the GC president on "Live 3ABN" to announce their truce and agreed cooperation)
to me, this "non-affiliation" statement is huge and extremely sad. it is in the Biblical sense, "spiritual betrayal & adultery" on the highest level. DS is blatantly stating no affiliation with the church he has supposedly represented all these years just for the purpose of manipulating a jury to win a lawsuit. sounds much like judas to me.
just when i think i can't be shocked anymore.

This post has been edited by mozart: Jun 25 2007, 08:12 PM

[mikell]

I think that Danny Shelton fully intends to present the theory published in his lawsuit and submitted into court.

That theory seems to be that 3ABN is not affiliated with any specific denomination, and therefore, the Save3ABN.com Web site is off base and has absolutely no business holding 3ABN up to the specific denominational standards of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, or any other church or organization, since 3ABN - the corporation -- does not necessarily subscribe to those doctrines, being an independent, non-denominational ministry.

Furthermore, Danny's lawyers may instruct the jurors that they should agree with Danny Shelton and be equally puzzled as to why a group from one particular denomination would be holding 3ABN up to the standards of their own, peculiar, but irrelevant denomination.

I think they wanted the lawsuit sealed -- in part -- because they plan to deny their connections and involvement with the SDA Church -- to win at any cost -- and they didn't want their donors to see them do that.

Then, after 3ABN wins their suit (supposedly) it's back to the Adventist Churches to shake down the membership for donations to help "counteract the counterfeit" and present their "undiluted Three Angels' messages," no worse for wear.

That's my take.
[/quote]
Ha, if your thesis is corrrect, Danny will SOON get rid of "Joint Declaration of Commitment" off his 3ABN site!
BTW, Do you know if the GC tried to make 3ABN apart of them? Did Danny then say no, but had that "Joint Declaration of Commitment" made for the GC to sign, thus to use it to raise money from gullible Adventists?
PS, I personally beleive your thesis is right,

[Panama_Pete]

Ha, if your thesis is corrrect, Danny will SOON get rid of "Joint Declaration of Commitment" off his 3ABN site!

BTW, Do you know if the GC tried to make 3ABN apart of them? Did Danny then say no, but had that "Joint Declaration of Commitment" made for the GC to sign, thus to use it to raise money from gullible Adventists?

PS, I personally beleive your thesis is right,

Hello Mikell,

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

These issues have been discussed or mentioned on BSDA in the past in various places. For instance, here is some information concerning 3ABN that Clay posted when he came across it. It appears to be from Adventist Today . It might be of some interest to you.:

http://www.blacksda.com/forums/lofiversion....php/t1780.html

Found this while browsing for those who might be interested.... I found it interesting because it speaks to not the ministry per se of 3ABN but how those in power at 3ABN begin to influence the church at large..... with humans, power corrupts.....

"Nomination Process of NAD President Appears "Less Than Clean"
What was whispered

It appears that some individuals may have tried to exercise influence behind the scenes at the General Conference Session in Toronto.

Seven different sources (all nominating committee members) told AT’s one anonymous source that Jan Paulsen told the NAD nominating committee members when they were in caucus that if they nominated Chuck Sandefur for NAD president, a prominent member of the Adventist Laymen’s Services and Industries (ASI) would oppose that nomination on the floor and present incriminating information regarding the partnership of the Adventist hospitals in Denver with Catholic hospitals.

According to AT’s source, three nominating committee members indicated that Paulsen also implied "problems" of a similar nature with Tom Mostert. This made the NAD nominating committee members feel that Paulsen left them no choice but to go with the name Paulsen seemed to recommend, Don Schneider. In fairness, it appears that the votes were there to give Schneider a majority in any case.

Four individuals confirmed with AT’s source that Phil Follett, the general Vice President of the GC who provided administrative oversight for communications and broadcasting, was not re-elected because ASI and 3ABN leaders pressured Paulsen to make a change.

Paulsen met with each of the VPs months prior to the GC session to inquire about their intentions. Both Follett and Kloosterhuis told Paulsen they would like to continue to serve but would be happy to step aside if he wished since they are eligible for retirement. They asked to be informed of any change as early as possible so that they could prepare their families and make plans for the future.

Apparently, Follett and Kloosterhuis were not informed of any change until a few hours prior to the nominating committee report, which proposed different individuals for their jobs. The time frame for what appears to be a last-minute change on the part of Paulsen is contiguousl with that of the time frame when conversations relative to NAD president were going on.

Three sources told AT’s source that Follett has been involved in a series of conflicts with 3ABN over the past several years. These have mostly been situations in which 3ABN wanted to use programs which the denomination paid to produce under its own terms instead of the general guidelines under which those programs were available to all broadcasters.

According the AT’s sources, 3ABN has repeatedly expressed an unwillingness to accept the editorials and production decisions of most denominational media organizations. For example, when Robert Folkenberg was GC president he attempted to negotiate an agreement with 3ABN in which 3ABN would be given direct access to all of the programming that it wanted from denominational TV ministries. 3ABN refused to sign this agreement because it did not want to release Faith for Today nor promise to continue to release Breath of Life after C.D. Brooks’ retirement. Only It Is Written was entirely acceptable.
3ABN also wanted dominance of local church programming and broadcasting around North America. AT’s sources suspect that pressure to block Follett’s re-election came from issues of this kind. Two of them described Paulsen’s agony over not wanting to be influenced by major donors but that he was feeling great pressure.

The GC officers used the provision in the GC bylaws permitting additional at-large delegates to be appointed by the GC committee to invite Danny Shelton, president of 3ABN, and others to come to the GC session as delegates even though they were not selected as delegates by the union conference where they reside."

This post has been edited by Panama_Pete: Jun 25 2007, 07:27 PM