The 3abn Massachusetts Lawsuit Poll Options

[mystery- man]

Maybe even a better example is the Jewish people who were definitly working for their father the devil and yet despite all God used them to fufill the prophecy "He was despised and rejected of men" and the statement "you seek to kill me". In the end these people who professed to be the servants of God and His representation killed the very Son of God. Now you might say to yourself what wonderful priest and leaders without which the Son of God would not have been nailed to a cross naked and spit upon. Are you so blinded that you can not see their is no virtue in sin and the end does not justify the means. Even Judas was used by God, was not their a prophecy that he would be sold for 30 peices of silver, and by Judas own hand the prophecy was fufilled. Yet God said of that man it would have been better that he was never born.

[steffan]

But I'd think that channel would be more effective in that work if it were being run by sanctified individuals. To claim service to God and then display the kind of dishonesty (etc) that Danny, Walt & Co have, is to take the Lord's Name in vain.

Actually what is taking the Lord's name in vain is what you are doing here by making the above statement when you have not been an eyewitness to any of the allegations nor has any against Danny and the board been proven. Our judgement will be measured out accordingly as we judge others. That means it's bad enough to judge others that we know personally, work with, have experiences with, but to make such judgements by what you read or have been told is inexcusable.

[mystery- man]

Steffan, I have read what 3abn has said that they are non denominational, in your opinion is that really true? Amazing facts, It Is Written, and must I go on and on I believe are adventist ministries. I have not seen Pat Roberston or Jimmy Swaggart or Oral Roberts and on 3abn. I feel like screaming when I see what is written, must we remain stupid and in a sleep forever?

[Pickle]

I think that Danny Shelton fully intends to present the theory published in his lawsuit and submitted into court.

That theory seems to be that 3ABN is not affiliated with any specific denomination, and therefore, the Save3ABN.com Web site is off base and has absolutely no business holding 3ABN up to the specific denominational standards of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, or any other church or organization, since 3ABN - the corporation -- does not necessarily subscribe to those doctrines, being an independent, non-denominational ministry.

In my opinion, it is a fatal flaw in their logic to then go on and allege that Gailon and I have frequented web sites that Adventists read.

Out of all the denominations out there, Adventists are a small part of Christianity. Presumably, if they are non-denominational with a non-denominational message, they are receiving significant support from all faiths, and if all their Adventist donors quit giving, it really wouldn't affect them all that much.

When will they acknowledge the utter futility of all of this?

I had just started to get interested in the church again but this is all a real turn-off. BTJM

Quite natural to think thoughts like that, but who might be putting them into our heads?

Having Judas as one of the 12 was certainly a turn off, and Peter (who denied), Thomas (who doubted), Philip (who was a bit slow), and James and John (who wanted to burn down a village that didn't invite them home for dinner) maybe didn't help much.

And Ananias and Saphira, and Simon Magus, and the other James who didn't like Paul (which is what led to Paul's arrest), the list of imperfect people whom God wasn't finished with yet goes on and on.

D. M. Canright, in a vision Ellen White had, wanted to get out of the boat (because someone told him an idea he had was wrong) into some better boat. That's what he did, but it sounds like he never really was happy.

We need to stay in the ship. The sinners in Zion will be shaken out. God will purify His people. And in the end, we'll all know that He was the one who did it, because no one else could.

[Johann]

We need to stay in the ship. The sinners in Zion will be shaken out. God will purify His people. And in the end, we'll all know that He was the one who did it, because no one else could.

Thank you for this admonition, Bob. Just before I wrote this I tried to call you, but I was told you were busy for the next couple of hours. It is good that you are busy teaching, teaching young people to stay with the ship under the guidance of the Spirit of Prophecy. There are powers that will try to prevent you from doing this work for the Lord. May TRUTH prevail!!!

[mystery- man]

One of the most frightening statements to me is to tell someone to stay on the ship, when the ship (meaning the church) is equated to salvation. That is why Jesus would say through John because you are neither hot nor cold I will spew you out. Many believe they are on the ship while actually they have long since left the ship. The Jewish leaders during Christ time believed they were on the ship when actually they had long since left the ship and its captain. No man can stay on the ship if Jesus puts them off. Remember Jesus told the scribes and pharisees your house is left unto you desolate. Remember when Jesus came he called the twelve to service and the leaders and Jeruselm was left without Jesus, and Satan took control. Ellen White says that history will be repeated. You can not serve man and God at the same time, you will despise one and serve the other or vice versa. Many are equating their salvation to the church instead of to the savior, thus the deplorable state of there life is justified by saying at least I have not left the church (how scary).

[Pickle]

Johann,

You can call now if you want to. Class is over.

[Pickle]

Mystery-Man,

Our faith is based on the Word of God.

Scripture foretells the rise of the church of Israel, the rise of the Christian church, the rise of Roman Christianity, the rise of the Protestant Reformation, and the rise of the Advent movement. Correct?

Scripture says nothing about the rise of any other group. To the contrary, we are told in the Spirit of Prophecy that the church may appear as about to fall but does not fall.

I take that to mean that before the end, the Adventist church will appear as about to fall and become Babylon, but it won't. And I also take that to mean that a group that has it all together, a group that doesn't appear as about to fall, cannot be the true church.

[SoulEspresso]

Actually what is taking the Lord's name in vain is what you are doing here by making the above statement when you have not been an eyewitness to any of the allegations nor has any against Danny and the board been proven. Our judgement will be measured out accordingly as we judge others. That means it's bad enough to judge others that we know personally, work with, have experiences with, but to make such judgements by what you read or have been told is inexcusable.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, steffan. But I'm not responsible for what Danny & Co said on television or in printed communications, nor am I responsible for what they wrote in publicly available original documents. Do we really have to list again all the evidence these men have generated against themselves? Their own words have gone out over the satellite waves!

What I am responsible for is making responsible decisions regarding people who have taken upon themselves leadership roles in the church--decisions on how to lead other people I'm responsible for, and decisions on what I can do, at my level, to hold these self-appointed leaders accountable--leaders who are now denying the faith they claim to propogate. This denial is deliberate and calculated, not some provoked offhand response.

These people have disgraced my church, a disgrace which is becoming more public every day. To paraphrase a line from Asimov, their deeds have become foul, foul, foul, and yet their words are still God, God, God. Didn't our Lord have something to say about that in Matthew 7:21-23?

I'm praying for you, steffan. Why are you doing this? How can you defend the indefensible? What interest do you have in all this? You have responded to my charges that the leadership of 3ABN is taking the Lord's Name in vain these days; do you have the courage to respond to mystery-man's question?

3abn has said that they are non denominational, in your opinion is that really true?

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Jun 27 2007, 08:47 AM

[Ephphatha]

The current 3ABN lawsuit filed in Massachusetts by Plaintiff Danny Shelton has the following statement:

"Although many of 3ABN's employees and volunteers, including Plaintiff Shelton, are members of the Seventh-Day Adventist faith, 3ABN is a non-denominational Christian ministry which is not owned by, affiliated with, or financed by any specific church, denomination, or organization."

This poll asks if you think 3ABN donors give money and other gifts to 3ABN with the stated knowledge and understanding as stated in the lawsuit.

Based on a little (albeit limited) legal knowledge, I believe that what is being said here is that 3ABN is not an Adventist owned television station. Being Adventist owned and owned by an Adventist are different legally. The word that needs the focus here is "specific". 3ABN may be owned by an Adventist, but it is not owned by a specific church, so if Shelton decided to start teaching catholic or baptist doctrine or allowing it on the program the GC could do nothing about it. Also he must go through the legal channels and pay for the rights to use anything that is specifically Adventist while Adventist owned media outlets do not. 3ABN is not affiliated with a specific church, denomination or organization. Now 3ABN may be affiliated with the Adventist church in some areas, but it may also be affiliated with other churches. Affiliated here would mean "in partnership with". (Small example, Burger King is affiliated specifically with Coke. That means they sell exclusively Coke products at their company owned stores, Wal-mart on the other hand is offiliated with coke, Pepsi, 7-up, they sell all products so there is no specific affiliation). Lastly, 3ABN's financing is not through a specific church. It may have donors who are Advenist and donors who are Adventist entities, but some 3ABN donors are non-Adventist organizations and individuals. This wording, in essence, protects 3ABN from any legal action that might be taken against the Adventist church and also protects the Adventist Church from any legal action taken against 3ABN. So that if someone decides to sue Danny Shelton and 3ABN the General Conference can not be held liable, and vice versa. Hope that helps.

This post has been edited by Ephphatha: Jun 27 2007, 09:47 AM

[princessdi]

You know I can really understand that part of it. The part I believe to be troubling is where they say they preach a nondenominal mesage. I am almost positive that the 3 Angels Message is something unique to adventism, and that most support 3ABN because they feel, and have been led to believe that they are preaching not just the Three Angels Message, but the Adventist mesage as a whole. For the most part it it what they have been doing, BTW. They definitely have not been teaching a non denominational message. Many support them because they teach the Adventist message, now with these court papers they seemed to have distanced themselved form Adventism long ago. They just kept the spin so that they would not loose the support of the Adventism donation base. IOW, just crooked, crooked to the bone. There is almost nothing of intergrity about the founding or operation of 3ABN. Sure they have some very nice, christian and sincere folk with shows on their network, but that is all just part of the spin. It's just sad. Adventist are truly looking to 3ABN topreach Adventism's unique message, and realy feel this is the best way to get it done. They believe it because they have been led to believe it, but it was a lie.

Also from the way negotiations went for them to partner with GC, it was clear that the Sheltons wanted a very limited tie with the church, with absolutely no church control over any decisions made.

Based on a little (albeit limited) legal knowledge, I believe that what is being said here is that 3ABN is not an Adventist owned television station. Being Adventist owned and owned by an Adventist are different legally. The word that needs the focus here is "specific". 3ABN may be owned by an Adventist, but it is not owned by a specific church, so if Shelton decided to start teaching catholic or baptist doctrine or allowing it on the program the GC could do nothing about it. Also he must go through the legal channels and pay for the rights to use anything that is specifically Adventist while Adventist owned media outlets do not. 3ABN is not affiliated with a specific church, denomination or organization. Now 3ABN may be affiliated with the Adventist church in some areas, but it may also be affiliated with other churches. Affiliated here would mean "in partnership with". (Small example, Burger King is affiliated specifically with Coke. That means they sell exclusively Coke products at their company owned stores, Wal-mart on the other hand is offiliated with coke, Pepsi, 7-up, they sell all products so there is no specific affiliation). Lastly, 3ABN's financing is not through a specific church. It may have donors who are Advenist and donors who are Adventist entities, but some 3ABN donors are non-Adventist organizations and individuals. This wording, in essence, protects 3ABN from any legal action that might be taken against the Adventist church and also protects the Adventist Church from any legal action taken against 3ABN. So that if someone decides to sue Danny Shelton and 3ABN the General Conference can not be held liable, and vice versa. Hope that helps.

[Ephphatha]

You know I can really understand that part of it. The part I believe to be troubling is where they say they preach a nondenominal mesage. I am almost positive that the 3 Angels Message is something unique to adventism, and that most support 3ABN because they feel, and have been led to believe that they are preaching not just the Three Angels Message, but the Adventist mesage as a whole. For the most part it it what they have been doing, BTW. They definitely have not been teaching a non denominational message. Many support them because they teach the Adventist message, now with these court papers they seemed to have distanced themselved form Adventism long ago. They just kept the spin so that they would not loose the support of the Adventism donation base. IOW, just crooked, crooked to the bone. There is almost nothing of intergrity about the founding or operation of 3ABN. Sure they have some very nice, christian and sincere folk with shows on their network, but that is all just part of the spin. It's just sad. Adventist are truly looking to 3ABN topreach Adventism's unique message, and realy feel this is the best way to get it done. They believe it because they have been led to believe it, but it was a lie.

Also from the way negotiations went for them to partner with GC, it was clear that the Sheltons wanted a very limited tie with the church, with absolutely no church control over any decisions made.

I agree with you. I think, though, that some have been reached through the messages on 3ABN. I've known many people who have become Adventist because of the truths they have heard on 3ABN. My battle is this, the owner is obviously loopy, but the other individuals who present programming like Pastor Pearson, The Aikens, Shelly Quinn, and others are genuine preachers of God's word and want the truth out there. I believe that God is in control ultimately and He is conducting the happenings at 3ABN. It may be that Danny will be seperated from 3ABN and it will be a "reborn" situation. Right now, I think for some its a delicate wheat and tares situation. If things aren't handled right, regarding 3ABN there is are a lot of delicate wheat plants that have just sprung up that maybe wrenched out of soil with the tare.

[mystery- man]

Pickle, I dont see anywhere in the bible where the bible tells about the rise of the Adventist church.
I dont even see the name adventist written anywhere in the scriptures. (I am a seventhday adventist myself) so dont think I am putting down the church either. The bible tells rather of a restoration of the breach and the return to Godliness. The name truth is not synonimus with Adventism. It is a mistake to believe that one must be an adventist to be saved, that would be making the same mistake as the Jews of old. Because that was the prevailing belief during the time of the Jews they were able to threaten salvation by simply kicking one out of the church. Rather the truth was what made up the church. That is why I believe the church trade marked the name Seventh Day Adventist and threatens anyone with a law suit that does not follow their wishes in thought or the way the gospel is preached. The followers of God were christians because of the walk they had with God not because of the name. And let us not forget that the bible defined a Jew not of nationality but of a circumsised heart.

Anyone, keeping the commandments of God through the power of Christ and waiting for the second comming automatically becomes a true Seventhday Adventist. It is not the corporations stamp of the name or the churches putting you on its roll that makes you saved or a christian.

[princessdi]

Agreed!

I agree with you. I think, though, that some have been reached through the messages on 3ABN. I've known many people who have become Adventist because of the truths they have heard on 3ABN. My battle is this, the owner is obviously loopy, but the other individuals who present programming like Pastor Pearson, The Aikens, Shelly Quinn, and others are genuine preachers of God's word and want the truth out there. I believe that God is in control ultimately and He is conducting the happenings at 3ABN. It may be that Danny will be seperated from 3ABN and it will be a "reborn" situation. Right now, I think for some its a delicate wheat and tares situation. If things aren't handled right, regarding 3ABN there is are a lot of delicate wheat plants that have just sprung up that maybe wrenched out of soil with the tare.

[PeacefulBe]

Many salient points here, I especially enjoyed Greg's--God loves people so much, He makes Himself the grandest Opportunist there ever was. Some years ago God touched me through Van Halen, for example.

What gets me mad is this idea that if we can get our satellite channels into enough countries, the "gospel will go to the world" and "the work will be finished." Even if everybody in the whole world knew the facts about the "Three Angels' Message," they wouldn't be saved--it isn't knowing facts, but knowing God. Knowing God has to be nurtured through real-world, real-life, relationships, best ministered through other people in the church (NOT talking about pastors--some yes, some no).

God will make sure every person on earth gets a fair shot at salvation with or without us. Recommended reading for lurkers and denizens: Why Didn't They Tell Me? by Morris Venden.

Malcolm Muggeridge used to say that "the medium is the message," ergo putting the gospel on TV was like banging out hymns on a half-tuned brothel piano. I don't know that I would go that far. God does use religious TV, and I hope He keeps using 3ABN; far be it from me to say that He can't. But if He does, that doesn't make 3ABN special, because there's nothing God won't use in His reckless, raging love for and pursuit of people.

SE,

If I had a golden apple right now I would place it in your hand! Sometimes the bronze serpent on the wooden cross becomes the focus of worship instead of the Savior it pointed to.

Knowing God and understanding how desperately He loves and wants us to be His own - that is truly the key! That supersedes any conservative, liberal or progressive interpretation of dogma, IMO.