The 3abn Massachusetts Lawsuit Poll Options

[SoulEspresso]

God's Truth and our Christian friends and family is our church Snoop. that's where the blessing is. IMO-the "organization" is more like a thorn in our side. something we have to persevere with until we see there is no more hope for it to ever walk that straight and narrow path. some say that the organization won't ever fall. personally, i think that it's awful close and has been on the tippy-toe edge for a long time.

If we preoccupy ourselves with the organization we'll get really depressed and lose our focus. I know. Story of my life for the last five years. Jesus, you and your friends--that's church.

[Snoopy]

If we preoccupy ourselves with the organization we'll get really depressed and lose our focus. I know. Story of my life for the last five years. Jesus, you and your friends--that's church.

Soul, I think I would truly enjoy being a member of your congregation.

[steffan]

therein lies the problem, people are under the mistaken impression that 3abn has "brought people into the church." They have done no such thing. People are brought into the church by God. The bible makes that plain.
1Cor 3:1-7

So we probably need to re-educate ourselves and reject the hype by those who point to 3abn as bringing people into the church, they did not bring anyone, God did....

Of course God brings people in but...he uses people and tools to do it. Just like a person that has prayed for healing and receives it through a good surgeons hands. God worked through that surgeon to make the sick person well. Same here. God has, is and will use 3abn to take the message to those that might not ever hear it otherwise.

[Panama_Pete]

Of course God brings people in but...he uses people and tools to do it. Just like a person that has prayed for healing and receives it through a good surgeons hands. God worked through that surgeon to make the sick person well. Same here. God has, is and will use 3abn to take the message to those that might not ever hear it otherwise.

When you say "the message" are you referring to the unique, non-denominational "Return to God" message that 3ABN has worked tirelessly to promote since its inception?

'Since its inception, Shelton and 3ABN have worked tirelessly to promote 3ABN's ministry and to spread its unique, non-denominational "Return to God" message.'

as quoted in


Three Angels Broadcasting Network, Inc.,
an Illinois non-profit corporation, and
Danny Lee Shelton, individually,
Plaintiffs,
v.
Gailon Arthur Joy and Robert Pickle,
Defendants.

[PeacefulBe]

Of course God brings people in but...he uses people and tools to do it. Just like a person that has prayed for healing and receives it through a good surgeons hands. God worked through that surgeon to make the sick person well. Same here. God has, is and will use 3abn to take the message to those that might not ever hear it otherwise.

Yes, Steffan, what IS the 3abn message? Since you are in closely involved with the inner workings of the ministry, please provide us with a synopsis of what "the message" is. I thought I knew, but obviously I assumed incorrectly.

I, for one, seriously want to hear and understand.

[Observer]

Of course God brings people in but...he uses people and tools to do it. Just like a person that has prayed for healing and receives it through a good surgeons hands. God worked through that surgeon to make the sick person well. Same here. God has, is and will use 3abn to take the message to those that might not ever hear it otherwise.

Steffan, I have a sermon that I love to preach about a woman who began her journey back to God, while sitting on a stool at a bar, on a Friday night!

I guess that you might say that God used that alcoholic beverage establishment, and the men and women drinking there to bring a woman back to God.

There once was a Broadway play, and later a hollywood movie entitled JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR that started people on their journey to God.

I guess you might say that God used that medium to bring someone back to God.

I am reminded of another Christian who began his journey back to God at a time when life had no meaning for him. He was considering ending it all. But he made a telephone call--to a sex talk line, where you pay by the minute. The woman at the other end of the conversation left her script, told him that he seemed depressed, and asked him what was going on in his life. He shared with her. She told him that he needed to pay attention to his spirituality. They talked more, and as the conversation ended he had made a decision to return to the SDA faith that he had left many years ago.

I guess that you might say that God used that pay by the minute sex talk line to bring one to God.

I was recently reviewing the life story of a SDA pastor. His journey to God began when a Claymore mine blew him into a rice paddy in Viet Nam.

I guess that you might say that God used the death and destruction of Viet Nam to bring one to Christ.

I have another perspective on all of the above: God goes in human life wherever is needed to reach people with the mesage of salvation. God went into the bar that Friday night. God was present on the rice paddy in Viet Nam. God was even present in that man taling to the pay by the minute sex talk line. But, the issues is God. The issue was not either the sex talk line, or the war in Viet Nam.

You say that God has used 3-ABN. In truth, I do not challenge such a statement. I have financially contributed to 3-ABN. But, I do challenge your assumption that because people have come to a Christ in a journey that first began with 3-ABN, that God supports what is happening at 3-ABN. I do not think that God supported the alcoholic beverage establishment that was serving drinks to the men an women that Friday evening.

[LaurenceD]

There are good people on 3abn who bring souls to, or back to, Christ. In His spirit they have a selfless way about them and you can tell who they are.

Then there are those who take their message to the world for a price. They have this air about them--a kind of self-facination, or self-infatuation--and you can tell who they are. A couple months ago I saw a program where one of the lay persons was preaching to an audience. In the middle of his sermon he thought he'd made a remarkable point somehow, and couldn't imagine how he'd come up with such a good thought by himself. He hesitated mid-sermon, saying, "where did that come from?" (wow!) and explained how he never knows what he's going to say, and thanked the Lord for that last sentence.

So, I think it's a mixture.

The former tend to talk with people. The latter tend to talk to people, or down to people. I wouldn't hold my breath hoping this character steffan will stoop to talk with you here on the internet. If you haven't noticed, he's kind of a "hit and run" conversationalist.

[Clay]

Of course God brings people in but...he uses people and tools to do it. Just like a person that has prayed for healing and receives it through a good surgeons hands. God worked through that surgeon to make the sick person well. Same here. God has, is and will use 3abn to take the message to those that might not ever hear it otherwise.

arrogantly incorrect.... If God wants a person to hear something he has for them, they will hear it and as Greg has pointed out, God can use any means to do so. I think you and others of your mindset have got it twisted. Its not about 3abn, its about God. So your statement suggesting that 3abn took "the message" to those that might not ever hear it otherwise is an untruth. If not by 3abn, those that God wanted reach He would have....

[PeacefulBe]

Pete, Gregory, LaurenceD, Clay:

[sonshineonme]

arrogantly incorrect.... If God wants a person to hear something he has for them, they will hear it and as Greg has pointed out, God can use any means to do so. I think you and others of your mindset have got it twisted. Its not about 3abn, its about God. So your statement suggesting that 3abn took "the message" to those that might not ever hear it otherwise is an untruth. If not by 3abn, those that God wanted reach He would have....

You have made a good discovery here Clay. There are some that believe (and yes, I'm talking about the on the inside as well) that 3abn was a GIFT from GOD, that it is the ONLY "one" that can do a particular task, and if it fails, the GIFT is lost completely, in other words, God is not able to raise up something else to accomplish the same thing. So, it can not be done by someone/something else.

I believe that this idea has been abused - "they" have taught others to think this is the case (again, "taught" to those inside too) and so those who believe this are not only fighting for their paychecks, but for this idea. So, theologically speaking, I have had this round-dee-round with some on this idea, and I have seen how tightly believed this is. I also think many are using this idea to keep the "image" of 3abn and 3abn alive, because it has always worked before, they intend to stick to it. They may not come right out and say it, but it has been said to me, on a number of occasions.

I attempted to remind these people exactly what you have stated - practically word for word. It is almost cult-like to hear their response. I sit in amazement and think two things instantly:

1. Oh, I see, GOD is limited or limited the situation intentionally??
2. This is typical shortsided view of God, arrogance thinking one is more privileged then a nother (which obviously leads to human failure either way), and to attempt to control God and pump the pews for whatever 'man' decides is needed.

I have even had examples of bible characters (of course!) used to affirm this thinking on their part.

I don't buy it. Maybe I am wrong.

What happens with God has a mission for someone/some group, and they fail? How can people truly think that the results for that mission are forever gone, and it lays on the hands of those that failed?

If this were the true belief however, I mean DEEP DOWN REAL, don't you think these people would not do MANY of the things that they have done knowing that they are taking advantage of God's blessings, but also risking losing it all together, as is now happening? The way I see it, either way, THEY made choices to take it down, no one else did it for them, as they would like to blame everyone else...again there is that arrogance!! They should be able to abuse God their way, and everyone should let them. BROTHER!

[SoulEspresso]

Many salient points here, I especially enjoyed Greg's--God loves people so much, He makes Himself the grandest Opportunist there ever was. Some years ago God touched me through Van Halen, for example.

What gets me mad is this idea that if we can get our satellite channels into enough countries, the "gospel will go to the world" and "the work will be finished." Even if everybody in the whole world knew the facts about the "Three Angels' Message," they wouldn't be saved--it isn't knowing facts, but knowing God. Knowing God has to be nurtured through real-world, real-life, relationships, best ministered through other people in the church (NOT talking about pastors--some yes, some no).

God will make sure every person on earth gets a fair shot at salvation with or without us. Recommended reading for lurkers and denizens: Why Didn't They Tell Me? by Morris Venden.

Malcolm Muggeridge used to say that "the medium is the message," ergo putting the gospel on TV was like banging out hymns on a half-tuned brothel piano. I don't know that I would go that far. God does use religious TV, and I hope He keeps using 3ABN; far be it from me to say that He can't. But if He does, that doesn't make 3ABN special, because there's nothing God won't use in His reckless, raging love for and pursuit of people.

But I'd think that channel would be more effective in that work if it were being run by sanctified individuals. To claim service to God and then display the kind of dishonesty (etc) that Danny, Walt & Co have, is to take the Lord's Name in vain.

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Jun 26 2007, 09:47 AM

[sonshineonme]

Many salient points here, I especially enjoyed Greg's--God loves people so much, He makes Himself the grandest Opportunist there ever was. Some years ago God touched me through Van Halen, for example.

What gets me mad is this idea that if we can get our satellite channels into enough countries, the "gospel will go to the world" and "the work will be finished." Even if everybody in the whole world knew the facts about the "Three Angels' Message," they wouldn't be saved--it isn't knowing facts, but knowing God. Knowing God has to be nurtured through real-world, real-life, relationships, best ministered through other people in the church (NOT talking about pastors--some yes, some no).

God will make sure every person on earth gets a fair shot at salvation with or without us. Recommended reading for lurkers and denizens: Why Didn't They Tell Me? by Morris Venden.

Malcolm Muggeridge used to say that "the medium is the message," ergo putting the gospel on TV was like banging out hymns on a half-tuned brothel piano. I don't know that I would go that far. God does use religious TV, and I hope He keeps using 3ABN; far be it from me to say that He can't. But if He does, that doesn't make 3ABN special, because there's nothing God won't use in His reckless, raging love for and pursuit of people.

But I'd think that channel would be more effective in that work if it were being run by sanctified individuals. To claim service to God and then display the kind of dishonesty (etc) that Danny, Walt & Co have, is to take the Lord's Name in vain.

SE, I have used these same words...same idea...same same same!! And they look at me in a blank stare, not wanting to give up their thinking. It's scares me to see this. It's simply logic, based on God's love, and yet they don't see it!!! What does this tell you? Or me? I've talked till I'm blue in the face...it falls on brainwashed ears.

[SoulEspresso]

SE, I have used these same words...same idea...same same same!! And they look at me in a blank stare, not wanting to give up their thinking. It's scares me to see this. It's simply logic, based on God's love, and yet they don't see it!!! What does this tell you? Or me? I've talked till I'm blue in the face...it falls on brainwashed ears.

C.S. Lewis said somewhere (I think) that people are used by God either as sons/daughters or as tools. The difference is willingness. His children often are given choices as to how they serve, and their service plays out through the relationship with the Father. What makes me tremble both for the church and for the individual souls who are running 3ABN is that they think they're serving as sons, but because of their moral apostasy, God may actually be using them as tools. What He does with them, they may not like at the end of it.

It's God's desire to work with everyone as His children, but sometimes He has to send them through some stuff they don't like to get them there. 'Nother book: I Was Wrong by Jim Bakker. Seems pertinent. Germane. Relevant. Salient. Wonder if the 3ABN board has read that.

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Jun 26 2007, 10:06 AM

[sonshineonme]

C.S. Lewis said somewhere (I think) that people are used by God either as sons/daughters or as tools. The difference is willingness. His children often are given choices as to how they serve, and their service plays out through the relationship with the Father. What makes me tremble both for the church and for the individual souls who are running 3ABN is that they think they're serving as sons, but because of their moral apostasy, God may actually be using them as tools. What He does with them, they may not like at the end of it.

It's God's desire to work with everyone as His children, but sometimes He has to send them through some stuff they don't like to get them there. 'Nother book: I Was Wrong by Jim Bakker. Seems pertinent. Germane. Relevant. Salient. Wonder if the 3ABN board has read that.

I myself need to reminded of my worked out perception (this is to say CLEARER) of God and His love for us, especially when it comes to expectations on/for us (those in ministry - paid and personal) that HE GETS THE JOB DONE and it's our PRIVILEGE to be part of it...that it WILL GET DONE either way. I have ALWAYS had trouble with this way that the "responsibility" of saving people had been put on people to do, because I have NEVER seen it lead to good things - EVER!!!

This is why I go through this process again and again with those I talk to with the mentality (again, I think it's also an excuse for some) that it's their job to play God on earth...I can see the danger, I can see where it has led them, and I can see the crapola it does to their minds...and God help us help them see it. To me, what's worse? Not knowing God at all? Or being and making god's of things/institutions? They are both bad, right? Yet you have the text "...that you would be hot or cold", so we know that God does not like luke warm! That scares me too, because I find that as I weed thru the garbage, throwing this and that out, finding my way to "hot", I feel like I am LUKEWARM! This comes from being immersed in legalism for so many years, and knowing there is junk from that to get rid of, and getting real is painful for all of us...no matter what "thinking" we are coming from. The "3abn religion" or "legalism" or what every man has made for themselves to worship.

Hopefully, what ever "religion" you have, you have not become so heart-hardened (isn't that an irony, oxy-moron) that God can't get you to where He wants you...we do have to let go, all of us at some point, and start over (if you will).

[Fran]

I myself need to reminded of my worked out perception (this is to say CLEARER) of God and His love for us, especially when it comes to expectations on/for us (those in ministry - paid and personal) that HE GETS THE JOB DONE and it's our PRIVILEGE to be part of it...that it WILL GET DONE either way. I have ALWAYS had trouble with this way that the "responsibility" of saving people had been put on people to do, because I have NEVER seen it lead to good things - EVER!!!

This is why I go through this process again and again with those I talk to with the mentality (again, I think it's also an excuse for some) that it's their job to play God on earth...I can see the danger, I can see where it has led them, and I can see the crapola it does to their minds...and God help us help them see it. To me, what's worse? Not knowing God at all? Or being and making god's of things/institutions? They are both bad, right? Yet you have the text "...that you would be hot or cold", so we know that God does not like luke warm! That scares me too, because I find that as I weed thru the garbage, throwing this and that out, finding my way to "hot", I feel like I am LUKEWARM! This comes from being immersed in legalism for so many years, and knowing there is junk from that to get rid of, and getting real is painful for all of us...no matter what "thinking" we are coming from. The "3abn religion" or "legalism" or what every man has made for themselves to worship.

Hopefully, what ever "religion" you have, you have not become so heart-hardened (isn't that an irony, oxy-moron) that God can't get you to where He wants you...we do have to let go, all of us at some point, and start over (if you will).

Thanks