What Is This Really About?, the end game... Options

[Clay]

I won't attempt to speak for Pickle, for he is here to speak for himself. I can speak for Joy to the extent that he has himself commented on these things in mail that I have received from him off and on over the last year.

From that I can say that from the beginning his goal was to get 3abn under Conference control. Initially, he had no idea of the depth or breadth of the problems, and thought that could be a simple job of replacing key 3abn individuals with skilled Conference personell... who would then proceed to "clean up" whatever needed to be cleaned up and transform 3abn into a truly representative arm of the SDA church. There was never any feeling from any of the letters I saw that he had any thoughts of taking any of this position or responsibility himself.... he thought of himself only as a catalyst to get things started.

It did not take long, however, for him to discover that such a simple solution would not be possible... and he turned his energies to exposing evil as it came to his attention.... for the purpose of affecting both the "court of public opinion" as well as church officials who (it was thought) would be able to "fix things" if they only knew about them.

As we experienced on BSDA for more than a year preceding Gailon's appearance... the more we learned the wider and deeper grew the problems.... and they were much wider and deeper than were ever stated here on BSDA... or on any other forum. And this same widening of our understanding continued throughout the last year. Thus by the time the merger came along, many of us "oldtimers" did NOT think that it was a satisfactory solution, and were negative about it from the very first.

Gailon, however, had hopes that this might turn out to be the vehicle by which his original goal of turning 3abn into a Conference entity might be achieved... so when that fell through, he expressed deep disappointment that it did not happen.

I personally, however, feel that the merger was no solution at all... and never had any potential for being a solution.

so then the merger was seen as positive IF it would have placed 3abn under church control..... so then why was there an outcry against the merger if it was viewed in a positive light? If 3abn were under church control then it would cease to be an independent ministry would it not?

[watchbird]

so then the merger was seen as positive IF it would have placed 3abn under church control..... so then why was there an outcry against the merger if it was viewed in a positive light? If 3abn were under church control then it would cease to be an independent ministry would it not?

I did not see a statement by Gailon at the time of the merger, so I can't make a positive statement as to what he thought then. I did see a negative statement from him after the merger was called off.

I really don't know of anyone who was ever all that positive over it. I'm not even sure those who put on the "good show" on TV that night were all as positive as they tried to make us think they were.

I have no idea what the motive for the merger was... nor who proposed it... though evidence presented at the time suggested that it was masterminded and choreographed by Garwin McNeilus.

Being as familiar with the "self-supporting ministry" mindset as I am, I was certain from the beginning that the original boardmembers would not be in favor of "losing" their ministry through combining with the denomination. Since Amazing Facts had an image of being an "independent ministry" even though their speaker and president was a Conference paid minister, I think many people assumed that what they were seeing was two independent mnistries merge.

Once it became known that the Conference itself regarded Amazing Facts as standing under the "denominational umbrella", and that their board wanted it to stay that way.... it was obvious to many of us that the merger was not going to get off the ground.

Yes.. as you say.... "If 3abn were under church control then it would cease to be an independent ministry..." and if you stop and listen a bit, the echos of all the statements as to why "the church" could not do anything to "clean up the mess" will ring in your ears, and you will know without asking why it was that 3abn could not possibly agree to lose their "independent ministry" status.

And if you think a bit all the things that closer association with 3abn would force the Denom to assume liability and responsibility for... ......

...... ........

[Snoopy]

Being as familiar with the "self-supporting ministry" mindset as I am, I was certain from the beginning that the original boardmembers would not be in favor of "losing" their ministry through combining with the denomination. Since Amazing Facts had an image of being an "independent ministry" even though their speaker and president was a Conference paid minister, I think many people assumed that what they were seeing was two independent mnistries merge.

Once it became known that the Conference itself regarded Amazing Facts as standing under the "denominational umbrella", and that their board wanted it to stay that way.... it was obvious to many of us that the merger was not going to get off the ground.

This is a point that interests me a great deal. 3ABN organized itself in such a manner that it is required to file annual results with the IRS via a Form 990 which becomes public information. If the merger had been consummated and 3ABN had moved "under the denominational umbrella", they would no longer be required to file results with the IRS.

In response to bear's original questions, I couldn't really respond any sooner because I really didn't know. Very thought provoking questions bear!! But having seen some responses and thinking about it for quite awhile, I think I have to jump on the bandwagon and say "THE TRUTH" as well. I get so fed up with the daily media coverage of stories of greed...and not only greed, but greed whatever the cost, no matter who gets hurt. And then there are stories of the power hungry...those who want to control everything and everyone...

With a mid-life crisis approaching (I can feel it!!) and an intense desire to know what the purpose of my life is, I was being drawn back into "the safety of the fold", meaning the warm fuzzy feeling of going back to something that was drilled into my childhood - the SDA church. But in the process I discovered a new soap opera...."As 3ABN Turns". (It must just be coincidence, since 3ABN is, of course, non-denominational...) It has only taken me *(&*&^&%$ years to figure out that the warm fuzzy feeling comes from Jesus and the inspired Word, not the church. And praise the Lord for that!!

Anyway, here's what I would like to see come out of all this:

1. A strong, healthy, vibrant 3ABN ministry that views itself only as a humble tool in the Hand of the Master Carpenter.

2. An executive team that is willing to take a stand for the beliefs and objectives it holds. How many times do we hear about the number of precious souls who were baptized into the Baptist Church because of 3ABN? Or the Catholic Church? OK, Methodist? Church of Christ??

3. A Board of Directors that is willing to first, understand its responsibilities and second, act on them.

4. TRANSPARENCY!!!

OK, I'm done. For now...

~~Snoopy~~

[Pickle]

Seems like if this ended as it would be expected to end if it had happened in any Adventist church entity or supporting ministry, or even a non-Adventist entity, or even a secular entity, that would suit me fine.

In other words, unless you happen to be a recent U.S. president, if you get caught red handed doing certain things, it is generally expected that certain consequences will follow.

So what would happen if truth and righteousness reign supreme? That's the question. And that's the answer.

As to motives and objectives starting out well and changing over time, that idea was suggested by Shelley Quinn (if I recall correctly) on Feb. 15, 2007, during the broadcast that announced to the world their plans to sue.

[Pickle]

From that I can say that from the beginning his goal was to get 3abn under Conference control.

Is this correct? I know that he early on talked about 3ABN being audited by the GC to provide some accountability to the denomination from which so much of its funding comes from, but that would be quite different than actually being under conference control.

I know he has also talked about having a constituency for 3ABN that would consist of laymen from all the conferences.

By the way, Clay, an objective of Gailon's has been for 3ABN to have a new governance and constituency, to try to prevent problems like this saga from happening again. He has felt that the 3ABN Board needs to be accountable to someone other than themselves. A church leader, i understand, has recently made comments along these lines.

[Pickle]

Was that a goal of Pickle/Joy? How did they view the proposed merger? Would that have been a satisfactory resolution?

Depends on the type of merger. A merger that had Danny being CEO with Doug under him as president wouldn't resolve a thing. But Gailon felt a merger of 3ABN into AF would possibly result in a positive resolution, and he let the Court know on July 23 that he liked the idea.

[Pickle]

"As 3ABN Turns".

Would "As the Satellite Turns" be any catchier?

[erik]

Bear,


For me the desired end of all this is simple.


1. that the sins of all parties in the 3abn story would be repented of in has public manner has necessary.

I.E. Danny needs to repent of his lying about money and women.

2. that wrongs that have been done would be correct has best has possible in a sinful world.

3. that 3abn would be free from the sin that is currently limiting it is full power for spreading the gospel
of Jesus.

4. The most important end game in my mind is that all in this hold mess would be able to find forgiveness at the
cross and would allow God to live in them so that we all would be in heaven, and look back on this mess, and praise God for how he brought Good out of the evil that Satan tried to ruin the work of God with.

5. the first step in my mind towards this would be a dropping of the current lawsuit,a nd the SDA church Leadership stepping out n Faith and holding a hearing on the issues in this mess.

Erik W.

[Pickle]

Restitution would also be appropriate, and biblical.

[Ozzie]

Restitution would also be appropriate, and biblical.

[mikell]

In other words, unless you happen to be a recent U.S. president, if you get caught red handed doing certain things, it is generally expected that certain consequences will follow.

When I read this, it all made perfect sense. I just had a hard time understanding why the leadership of the GC, NAD and the ASI are not just mute but some even condone what is going on at 3ABN. Now, sadly it is true our Church is a microcosm of the world. Clintonism lives on within Shelton and onto the 3ABN board members where there are no consequences, like back in the days of Bill Clinton. Our USA Government leaders should had him removed and replaced {imho}. Our SDA Church leaders should have Danny and all the board removed and replaced. True, they cannot do it directly, but through the body of SDA’s they can, but do not and allow only the corruption to continue. No longer there are no consequences from corrupt governments unto corrupt religious institutions. I really now believe, if Billy Clinton set out to be our GC President he will get a unanimous vote from all of our leaders.

This post has been edited by mikell: Aug 12 2007, 01:15 AM

[PeacefulBe]

Hmmmm. Bob, Mikell, how about if we leave politics out of the fray. There are bound to be a few of us who didn't like the dalliance of the Prez but still found his presidency stellar. As I remember, they did try to have him disfellowshipped for his sin. Wasn't it Newt who helped lead that charge? Hmmmmm.

[sonshineonme]

duplicate post, so deleted, the site was acting up, ended up with post made twice again! I hate it when that happens!!!

This post has been edited by sonshineonme: Aug 11 2007, 10:40 PM

[lurker]

I would be content to merely see the money changers driven out and their tables overturned.

[PeacefulBe]

While settling any alleged financial improprieties would be a worthy accomplishment, my own best case outcome would be for every allegation of pastoral sexual abuse or pedophilia that has been made against Tommy Shelton and every allegation of attempts to cover up any alleged pastoral sexual abuse by intimidation or abuse of his position of power made against Danny Shelton to be finally and completely either verified or refuted. I believe if there were to be the level of cooperation available between leadership and investigators to put all of these allegations to rest and take whatever steps were found to be necessary to provide Biblical restitution for any verified victims, all of the other issues would likely find resolution as well.