What Is This Really About?, the end game... Options

[Pickle]

Hmmmm. Bob, Mikell, how about if we leave politics out of the fray. There are bound to be a few of us who didn't like the dalliance of the Prez but still found his presidency stellar. As I remember, they did try to have him disfellowshipped for his sin. Wasn't it Newt who helped lead that charge? Hmmmmm.

We can certainly leave politics out of it and still mention that we had a president who got caught red handed and never suffered any consequences for committing perjury, something that constitutes a felony.

There are other comparisions we can draw without dabbling in politics. Sister White wrote something about true confession never being forced. In Scripture Achan's confession meant nothing once he was nailed to the wall. Neither did King Saul's when he came back from slaying the Amalekites. Thus our president confessing only after the dress was found was meaningless, and if players in this saga only confess once they are nailed to the wall, that too will be meaningless, in God's eyes.

And then there is the issue of violating the most sacred vows mortals ever take: to be true to their spouses till death do them part. If a president violates such sacred, sacred vows, what makes us think he will keep his oath to uphold the Constitution? What makes us think we can trust them in anything, including running the most influential ministry within Adventism?

People make mistakes, and God can forgive and cleanse. But even genuinely repentant David suffered the consequences of betraying sacred trusts, consequnces within his own character, courage, and manner of administration.

[PeacefulBe]

I would agree, Bob, that Bill Clinton would be a very poor choice to take over the presidency of the most influential ministry within Adventism and I do hope that he isn't the one Appletree mentioned who is now being considered.

If we got rid of every politician who did not uphold this most sacred vow that mortals can take, how many would remain in Washington, DC? That is hard to determine.

It is true that those who are leaders in our denomination, as well as representative supporting ministries, must be held to a higher standard as Paul mentions in his letter to Titus. I still maintain that it would be best to keep politics separate from these specific discussions. There is enough built-in contention as it is without adding more.

Just my opinion.

[watchbird]

Is this correct? I know that he early on talked about 3ABN being audited by the GC to provide some accountability to the denomination from which so much of its funding comes from, but that would be quite different than actually being under conference control.

I know he has also talked about having a constituency for 3ABN that would consist of laymen from all the conferences.

By the way, Clay, an objective of Gailon's has been for 3ABN to have a new governance and constituency, to try to prevent problems like this saga from happening again. He has felt that the 3ABN Board needs to be accountable to someone other than themselves. A church leader, i understand, has recently made comments along these lines.

Do note that I said "under Conference control"... not "under Conference ownership". In the recent letter just posted in another thread, he speaks of requiring accountability to the "owners in the pews" and included in that regular audits by GC auditors. In earlier mail that I saw he spoke of specific individuals that he thought would be qualifed to take over the leadership of 3abn and correct the problems he saw with both governance and financial issues. While he did not spell out exactly the relationship he envisioned, I think it would probably have been something like the relationship which Amazing Facts has with the Conference.... under their "umbrella"... with the board having real power over the hiring and firing, and other vital operations... yet "independent" from the conference budget as to the raising of funds for their operations.

[Pickle]

If we got rid of every politician who did not uphold this most sacred vow that mortals can take, how many would remain in Washington, DC? That is hard to determine.

I think it would be better than term limits, which some folk don't seem to mind trying to enact into law.

Do note that I said "under Conference control"... not "under Conference ownership".

I think I may have been incomplete in what I wrote. In terms of the recent idea of merging into A-Facts, Gailon did tell me that would open up a way for the corruption to be cleaned up at 3ABN because 3ABN would then be under church control, and thus he has apparently been favorable of that sort of merger for that reason.

[Clay]

I think I may have been incomplete in what I wrote. In terms of the recent idea of merging into A-Facts, Gailon did tell me that would open up a way for the corruption to be cleaned up at 3ABN because 3ABN would then be under church control, and thus he has apparently been favorable of that sort of merger for that reason.

It is naive to believe that there is no corruption in the church... and equally naive to believe that the church could run 3abn free from corruption...

[Pickle]

I think his point was that there would then be a mechanism to take care of the current problem. Right now there isn't any such thing, given the current board.

[awesumtenor]

When I read this, it all made perfect sense. I just had a hard time understanding why the leadership of the GC, NAD and the ASI are not just mute but some even condone what is going on at 3ABN. Now, sadly it is true our Church is a microcosm of the world. Clintonism lives on within Shelton and onto the 3ABN board members where there are no consequences, like back in the days of Bill Clinton. Our USA Government leaders should had him removed and replaced {imho}. Our SDA Church leaders should have Danny and all the board removed and replaced. True, they cannot do it directly, but through the body of SDA’s they can, but do not and allow only the corruption to continue. No longer there are no consequences from corrupt governments unto corrupt religious institutions. I really now believe, if Billy Clinton set out to be our GC President he will get a unanimous vote from all of our leaders.

Please spare us the indignation about Pres. Clinton... if he should have been removed and replaced for his lie, how much more should the current administration receive the same; Clinton's lie at least did not have a body count attached to it... the current administration's lies about "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq have cost nearly 4000 dead and 20,000 wounded... and that is just the ones with physiological trauma... While your intent is noted, Bill Clinton's bad choices ultimately directly affected himself and his wife and his child and the woman in question... the current adminsitration's bad choices have directly affected tens of thousands of people not just the soldiers and sailors and marines that have been put in harm's way but their wives and husbands and fathers and mothers and children and siblings... and as a military veteran who has been in harms' way and who has a brother and a daughter and a son-in-law currently on active duty I am one of those affected, and it is insane, IMO, to castigate the former administration in light of the current trangressions of the other. The foreign policy choices of the current administration have done infintely more to damage the standing of America in the eyes of the world than the indiscretions of the preceding one.



In His service,
Mr. J

[Richard Sherwin]

Hey and now it looks like we might get the chance to have a President Clinton again.

Please spare us the indignation about Pres. Clinton... if he should have been removed and replaced for his lie, how much more should the current administration receive the same; Clinton's lie at least did not have a body count attached to it... the current administration's lies about "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq have cost nearly 4000 dead and 20,000 wounded... and that is just the ones with physiological trauma... While your intent is noted, Bill Clinton's bad choices ultimately directly affected himself and his wife and his child and the woman in question... the current adminsitration's bad choices have directly affected tens of thousands of people not just the soldiers and sailors and marines that have been put in harm's way but their wives and husbands and fathers and mothers and children and siblings... and as a military veteran who has been in harms' way and who has a brother and a daughter and a son-in-law currently on active duty I am one of those affected, and it is insane, IMO, to castigate the former administration in light of the current trangressions of the other. The foreign policy choices of the current administration have done infintely more to damage the standing of America in the eyes of the world than the indiscretions of the preceding one.



In His service,
Mr. J

[ex3ABNemployee]

Hey and now it looks like we might get the chance to have a President Clinton again.

Perish the thought

[Rosyroi]

Off topic again...

Watchbird,

"And if you think a bit all the things that closer association with 3abn would force the Denom to assume liability and responsibility for... ...... "I don't have a dictionary nearby... was wondering what that word Denom is and what it meant.

My first guess was that it was misspelled but the second guess was that it was a word I never heard of.

The third idea is that it is a combination of Demon and Venom.

Just wondering...

Rosyroi

This post has been edited by Rosyroi: Aug 12 2007, 08:28 PM

[watchbird]

Off topic again...

Watchbird,

"And if you think a bit all the things that closer association with 3abn would force the Denom to assume liability and responsibility for... ...... "I don't have a dictionary nearby... was wondering what that word Denom is and what it meant.

My first guess was that it was misspelled but the second guess was that it was a word I never heard of.

The third idea is that it is a combination of Demon and Venom.

Just wondering...

Rosyroi

Nothing so clever or sinister... just an abbreviation for Denomination..... .....

.................

[mikell]

Please spare us the indignation about Pres. Clinton... if he should have been removed and replaced for his lie, how much more should the current administration receive the same; Clinton's lie at least did not have a body count attached to it... the current administration's lies about "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq have cost nearly 4000 dead and 20,000 wounded... and that is just the ones with physiological trauma... While your intent is noted, Bill Clinton's bad choices ultimately directly affected himself and his wife and his child and the woman in question... the current adminsitration's bad choices have directly affected tens of thousands of people not just the soldiers and sailors and marines that have been put in harm's way but their wives and husbands and fathers and mothers and children and siblings... and as a military veteran who has been in harms' way and who has a brother and a daughter and a son-in-law currently on active duty I am one of those affected, and it is insane, IMO, to castigate the former administration in light of the current trangressions of the other. The foreign policy choices of the current administration have done infintely more to damage the standing of America in the eyes of the world than the indiscretions of the preceding one.



In His service,
Mr. J

Your piece here responding to mine is apples to oranges. My intent was narrow one to Clinton's lying, not just about having affairs but even about rape, who the victim was a Democrat operative in the Party, Juanita Broaddrick whom I personally find creditable, just look it up for yourself, click on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ix1uCqKzVI and http://www.newshounds.us/2007/07/17/fox_ne...on_disorder.php site.

As I am a Democrat myself who voted for John Kerry in the last presidential election, I am not a pro-Bush just because I believe Clinton is a cold hearted liar just as I do of Danny Shelton, if you want to get into politics I think you are in the wrong place, this is the 3ABN Saga, not Bush's Saga. Just because Bush, whom I never voted for; has such a long list of sins as you listed off, which I agree. But that to me does not negate the lies of Clinton, and neither does that of Danny Shelton, JMHO,

This post has been edited by mikell: Aug 12 2007, 11:19 PM

[PeacefulBe]

Please spare us the indignation about Pres. Clinton... if he should have been removed and replaced for his lie, how much more should the current administration receive the same; Clinton's lie at least did not have a body count attached to it... the current administration's lies about "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq have cost nearly 4000 dead and 20,000 wounded... and that is just the ones with physiological trauma... While your intent is noted, Bill Clinton's bad choices ultimately directly affected himself and his wife and his child and the woman in question... the current adminsitration's bad choices have directly affected tens of thousands of people not just the soldiers and sailors and marines that have been put in harm's way but their wives and husbands and fathers and mothers and children and siblings... and as a military veteran who has been in harms' way and who has a brother and a daughter and a son-in-law currently on active duty I am one of those affected, and it is insane, IMO, to castigate the former administration in light of the current trangressions of the other. The foreign policy choices of the current administration have done infintely more to damage the standing of America in the eyes of the world than the indiscretions of the preceding one.



In His service,
Mr. J

Thank you

[mikell]

delated

This post has been edited by mikell: Aug 12 2007, 10:01 PM

[mystery- man]

Your piece here responding to mine is apples to oranges. My intent was narrow one to Clinton's lying, not just about having affairs but even about rape, who the victim was a Democrat operative in the Party, Juanita Broaddrick whom I personally find creditable, just look it up for yourself, click on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ix1uCqKzVI and http://www.newshounds.us/2007/07/17/fox_ne...on_disorder.php site. I am not saying this is a fact, for I was not there. Just that it is my personal belief to find Mrs. Broaddrick creditable and so believe her for she was there.

As I am a Democrat myself who voted for John Kerry in the last presidential election, I am not a pro-Bush just because I believe Clinton is a cold hearted liar just as I do of Danny Shelton, if you want to get into politics I think you are in the wrong place, this is the 3ABN Saga, not Bush’s Saga. Just because Bush, whom I never voted for; has such a long list of sins as you listed off, which I totally whole heartily agree with you! I believe he is America's worst! but that to me does not negate the lies of Clinton, and neither does that of Danny Shelton, JMHO,

Please stop it is enough covering the 3abn mess without putting in the secular government.

It is obvious that Clinton was a flawed man who did not tell the trueth untill he was caught "I did indeed have a inappropiate relation with Monica"
I have been waiting for some time for someone to come in this forum and say that Danny and his brother are not quilty of the reported mis-deeds.