Rhema: The Basic Belief Of The "word Of Faith Movement"..., How does it relate to Adventism? Options

[Ian]

Why don't we do direct side-by-side comparisons with the various sources? I know they've all been linked already, but perhaps this would be helpful for some. IOW no one will have an excuse for not seeing the parallels if they read this post.
I've bolded the parts I found interesting.

Thank you for taking the time to type up what it says in "Exalting the word" I do know there's more but I'm pressed for time at the moment.

I did want to take the time to say that was interesting, and as far as Logos goes I see no real differences. Do you?

Where Rhema is concerned, there are some major differences which I see. I've put them in a blue font, and maybe you'll let me know what you think?


[QUOTE]
Rhema

ATI:
The second primary Greek word that describes Scripture is rhema, which refers to a word that is spoken and means “an utterance.” A rhema is a verse or portion of Scripture that the Holy Spirit brings to our attention with application to a current situation or need for direction. How do I “get” a rhema? In the regular course of our daily reading of God’s Word (logos), we need to ask God to speak to us through His Word and give us insight into it. The Holy Spirit can cause certain passages to stand out with significant meaning or application for our lives. These are the rhemas of Scripture and should become a part of our daily thoughts and actions.

Shelley Quinn:
The word rhema implies a single item—a specific word spoken by God with an applied purpose, a word of God that has a practical and immediate function. A personal word of instruction from God is a “rhema” Word. For example, when Jesus told Simon to launch into the deep and cast out his fishing nets, he replied, “Master, we have toiled all night and caught nothing; nevertheless at Your word [rhema] I will let down the net” (Luke 5:5 NKJV).

Wikipedia on the Pentecostal view:
Pentecostal Christians view Rhema as the voice of the Holy Spirit as it speaks to the believer at the present moment. In this sense, the Christian should be guided by the Holy Spirit as he/she is guided through inner feelings, impressions and experiences God's Rhema, the direct words of God to the individual, can also be imparted through the words of others, such as a preacher in a worship service, or a friend who counsels them. In this sense, God's direct guidance can be determined by a variety of means. The test of the authenticity of a Rhema from God is simple... How does it compare to the whole of Scripture? Orthodoxy says that God will not speak a word that contradicts His written word, the Scriptures, so there is a built-in safeguard to prevent misinterpretation....

The Holy Spirit often uses passages in the Logos of God to create specific guidance, Rhema, for the individual. An example of the Rhema of God is to consider how several different people can read the same passage of Scripture and each sees something different. This occurs because each person is in a different place spiritually in their individual lives so God's word to each of them in that moment of their lives is different - specific to their needs. The Logos (God's original meaning and intention) has not changed, but the Holy Spirit has used it to speak to each according to his or her needs.

Evangelical Christians, however, have a much different understanding of rhema. Many evangelicals see rhema as being almost synonymous with logos. In other words, the specific guidance we receive from the Holy Spirit at any given time can only be discerned by the general principles laid down in the written word - the Bible. But this sort of guidance is not the same as that described above - it can only give general guidance about how the decision should be made. If we used the same example of the Christian wondering about when to start their business, the evangelical would argue that God will not give any specific guidance - it is up to the person to work it out for themselves. What God can give guidance on is on how that business should be run, and what the business actually does (Running a Brothel, for instance, would be wrong).

For evangelicals, then, the rhema is when God speaks directly to a person as they apply the Bible's teaching to a specific subject.

[västergötland]

The question I have concerning the wikipedia article is that it lets the pentecostal worldview make the definitions which are then applied to the evangelical explanation. The pentecostal view as explained by the article then is that when you read the bible and a specific verse stands out to you in a way that it never did before, that is a Rhema and it speaks into some personal situation one is experiencing of about to experience. When you ask for councel from a christian friend and they give advice after having prayed about it, that is a Rhema. Or if you hear a sermon and you get the impression that the preacher must have written that sermon or a part of a sermon just for you, the part which sticks to your mind or hits you is a Rhema. Thus the Spirit, it is believed, personalises the message to fit right into your specific situation.

The Evangelical view on the other hand is that if you are planing on opening a buisness and open a brothel, and want to know what God thinks of it, you go and read leviticus where it says that sex except with your own wife is forbidden. Nothing more nor nothing less, and no specific revelation for your particular case. Buying sex is always wrong, no exceptions and the bible says it, the believer believes it and that settles that. For the evangelical thus, "Rhema" is just a greek word that is translated "word" and there is nothing mystical or otherwise supernatural about it.

For evangelicals, then, the rhema is when God speaks directly to a person as they apply the Bible's teaching to a specific subject.

I think that what you have done here is simply taken the pentecostal definition of rhema and put the evangelical sticker on it, thus effectively mixing the two up.

Now a different question is, what is the truth in all of this? Are the evangelicals right in saying that to learn Gods will on a subject, if it is covered in the bible it is there for anyone to read black on white. Or are the pentecostals right in saying that Gods Spirit can lead the believer to read and see an answer that deals with that particular situation specifically in a verse that would ordinarily not mean anything in particular to the person nor perhaps even be in a context dealing with the question at all? Could it be that there is truth in both camps and that neither of them have truth patented in their own explanation?

[roxe]

I ask that because I can't find these things in her book, you are unable to quote anything, and no one else has quoted anything here which sounds anything like what you specifically claimed she was teaching either..
You also say the book you were referring to had another cover, but "Exalting the Word" was copyrighted and published in 2006 by Pacific Press Publishing. The cover design and photo are by Steve Nelson. It is not revised nor edited, and to the best of my knowledge there is only the one version.

I looked all over the internet, but could find nothing about any other version and no other cover....

Maybe you or another might have more success..

ok, one more time...

the book i had was sent me in 2005, so obviously it is NOT the one printed in 2006.
so the "best of your knowledge" is not...

and please stop trying to imply i don't know what i'm talking about... all liars will be outside the city; and since i'm planning to be with Jesus thru all eternity, it isn't worth my time to make stuff up...

i'm searching the 'net for a copy of what i had...

it may take awhile.

in the mean time, will you please stop the uncalled-for remarks about what i KNOW i read in my copy.

thank you.

[SoulEspresso]

Wikipedia does have some differences, but I find the almost-identical wording between Shelley Quinn's work and what was defined on the ATI (Word of Faith-type organization) educational institute's website intriguing.

Keep in mind that Wikipedia is user-edited, and sometimes it's hard to tell how much authority an editor has to write on a particular subject. With that said, even under Wikipedia's definitions of the Pentecostal view of Rhema, we find a link. This is from the second chapter of Exalting His Word, after Shelley describes her struggle with Vertigo:

Drawing a deep breath, I uttered, “Help, Lord!” Again I made the agonizing effort, “Please, Father, help me.” Nothing more would come.
Suddenly I heard a still small voice. It wasn’t audible, it was more like thoughts being impressed upon my mind. Yet it was a voice, and I knew Who it was. God said, “I set before you life and death . . . choose life.” I have chosen life, Father. Jesus Christ is my Savior. If you mean anything more than that, You will have to explain it to me. I’m in no condition to figure it out.
He spoke again. “My Words are not idle words. My Word is life unto you. Anything that does not line up in agreement with My Word is nothing more than a pretentious lie of the enemy. If you choose to believe My Word, you choose life. If you doubt My Word—if you believe the deception of the evil one—you have chosen death.”
The Lord directed me to go to the Bible, seek out His promises related to healing and new beginnings, and hold fast to these. He instructed me to claim His promises, speaking His Word aloud daily. Faith comes by hearing.

An excerpt from the Wikipedia entry you (Ian) just posted:

Pentecostal Christians view Rhema as the voice of the Holy Spirit as it speaks to the believer at the present moment. In this sense, the Christian should be guided by the Holy Spirit as he/she is guided through inner feelings, impressions and experiences God's Rhema.

[RBF]

Thank you, Ian, for the following quote you mentioned in Post #121. It raises some serious questions for me.

“Pentecostal Christians view Rhema as the voice of the Holy Spirit as it speaks to the believer at the present moment. In this sense, the Christian should be guided by the Holy Spirit as he/she is guided through inner feelings, impressions and experiences. God's Rhema, the direct words of God to the individual, can also be imparted through the words of others, such as a preacher in a worship service, or a friend who counsels them. In this sense, God's direct guidance can be determined by a variety of means.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhema, Sept. 23, 2007)

Shelley Quinn appears to be using “rhema” as a direct communication from God to an individual. We must always compare “our perceived received light” with the Word of God. “To the law and to the testimony: If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Isaiah 8:20. If I believe God has spoken to me, I must compare it with the law and testimony see whether I am in the light or not.


Is it safe for us to go by inner feelings, impressions and experiences?

Proverbs 3:5- Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Jeremiah 17:9, 10- The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it. I the LORD search the heart….”

Is it safe to ask for anything in prayer or are there conditions?

Steps to Christ, page 51- “Jesus says, “What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” Mark 11:24. There is a condition to this promise-that we pray according to the will of God. But it is the will of God to cleanse us from sin, to make us His children, and to enable us to live a holy life. So we may ask for these blessings, and believe that we receive them, and thank God that we have received them.”

Hezekiah prayed without leaving it to God’s will. He turned his face to the wall and pouted. God told Isaiah to turn around and tell Hezekiah that He had heard his prayer. What were the results of that answered prayer? Merodach Baladen, King of Babylon, got a grand tour of all the riches of the kingdom. Secondly, Manasseh was born. Ouch!

Christ set such a beautiful experience in Gethsemane. Yes, He repeated His request three times but always coupled with “not as I will, but as thou wilt.” (Mathew 26:39)

I believe this final quote that I will end with is a timely warning. May we cling to the Bible and the Bible only as our rule of faith and never in our personal experiences.

“Are the people of God now so firmly established upon His word that they would not yield to the evidence of their senses? Would they, in such a crisis, cling to the Bible and the Bible only? Satan will, if possible, prevent them from obtaining a preparation to stand in that day. He will so arrange affairs as to hedge up their way, entangle them with earthly treasures, cause them to carry a heavy, wearisome burden, that their hearts may be overcharged with the cares of this life and the day of trial may come upon them as a thief.” Great Controversy, pages 625-626.

RBF

[SoulEspresso]

The ATI website states that they believe the Bible is verbally inspired. I hope this isn't a shock to everyone, but Adventists have never officially believed in verbal inspiration. We believe the Bible is authoritative as it reads and is infallible regarding matters of salvation, but not inerrant.

I don't know what Ms. Quinn believes about the nature of inspiration. I'm still getting into the google edition of her book.

Now a different question is, what is the truth in all of this? Are the evangelicals right in saying that to learn Gods will on a subject, if it is covered in the bible it is there for anyone to read black on white. Or are the pentecostals right in saying that Gods Spirit can lead the believer to read and see an answer that deals with that particular situation specifically in a verse that would ordinarily not mean anything in particular to the person nor perhaps even be in a context dealing with the question at all? Could it be that there is truth in both camps and that neither of them have truth patented in their own explanation?

This is the question I'm trying to answer for my own experience in all this. You could almost say that what Shelley and the Pentecostals are using the word "rhema" for is what Adventists as long as I've been alive have described with the word, "impression," i.e. "I felt impressed to go leave a bag of groceries on so-and-so's porch, and lo-and-behold they were flat broke and had just prayed for food." The primary difference is the level of verbal specificity, which is much higher with the rhema teaching.

I don't know that I have a problem with the teaching per se! My own reading of the Bible's use of rhema vs. logos is that they are interchangeably used by the Bible writers, particularly Luke in the book of Acts and John; in other words, labeling a message from God "rhema" or "logos" really isn't all that helpful because the Bible uses both for either type of message.

What I'm trying to find out is whether roxe's memory is correct and you have to repeat the rhema until something happens. I'm uncomfortable with the subtitle of the book, "Let the Bible in your hands be God's power in your life." God is the one who chooses to use His power in our lives.

[västergötland]

RFB,

How was the consensus in the following example reached?
Acts 15
1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.
3Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.
4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.
5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
12All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
13After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14"Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.

15"With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'
18SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.

19"Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21"For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas--Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
23and they sent this letter by them, "The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
24"Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
25it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27"Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
30So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter.
31When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement.
32Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message.
33After they had spent time there, they were sent away from the brethren in peace to those who had sent them out.
34[But it seemed good to Silas to remain there.]
35But Paul and Barnabas stayed in Antioch, teaching and preaching with many others also, the word of the Lord.

[västergötland]

This is the question I'm trying to answer for my own experience in all this. You could almost say that what Shelley and the Pentecostals are using the word "rhema" for is what Adventists as long as I've been alive have described with the word, "impression," i.e. "I felt impressed to go leave a bag of groceries on so-and-so's porch, and lo-and-behold they were flat broke and had just prayed for food." The primary difference is the level of verbal specificity, which is much higher with the rhema teaching.

I don't know that I have a problem with the teaching per se! My own reading of the Bible's use of rhema vs. logos is that they are interchangeably used by the Bible writers, particularly Luke in the book of Acts and John; in other words, labeling a message from God "rhema" or "logos" really isn't all that helpful because the Bible uses both for either type of message.

Would it be a good summary to say that the concept(the Spirit sometimes gives personal leading to individuals by different means) might well have truth while the method(trying to distinguish between rhema and logos) used to get there leaves much to be desired?

What I'm trying to find out is whether roxe's memory is correct and you have to repeat the rhema until something happens. I'm uncomfortable with the subtitle of the book, "Let the Bible in your hands be God's power in your life." God is the one who chooses to use His power in our lives.

While I have no idea if this repetition of rhema is something that appears in Ms Quinns book, it does appear in other books that mention the subject.

[SoulEspresso]

Would it be a good summary to say that the concept(the Spirit sometimes gives personal leading to individuals by different means) might well have truth while the method(trying to distinguish between rhema and logos) used to get there leaves much to be desired? While I have no idea if this repetition of rhema is something that appears in Ms Quinns book, it does appear in other books that mention the subject.

I would add that the question I have is the level of authority of a rhema word. Does Ms. Quinn belief it is infallible? and that it can be applied to someone else?

[västergötland]

Hmm, if a rhema is thought to apply to someone else, is it not then a prophetic word? What is the difference between the two?

[Delford]

Taken from Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 5 p. 512 by EGW

"There are three ways in which the Lord reveals his will to us, to guide us, and to fit us to guide others. How may we know his voice from that of a stranger? How shall we distinguish it from the voice of a false shepherd? God reveals his will to us in his word, the Holy Scriptures. His voice is also revealed in his providential workings; and it will be recognized if we do not separate our souls from him by walking in our own ways, doing according to our own wills, and following the promptings of an unsanctified heart, until the senses have become so confused that eternal things are not discerned, and the voice of Satan is so disguised that it is accepted as the voice of God.

"Another way in which God's voice is heard, is through the appeals of his Holy Spirit, making impressions upon the heart, which will be wrought out in the character."

There are 3 ways to know God's will: 1. Holy Scriptures 2. Providential workings and 3. Impressions on the heart by the Holy Spirit.

[Delford]

I had an experience recently where I knew something was wrong in my life. I was not being as blessed as usual and I knew something wasn't right. I was studying the SS lesson about Ecclesiastics and as I opened my Bible, I asked God to please show me what was wrong. I read in Eccl. 5:5 these words:

"Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay."

I was impressed strongly that in my business, I had not paid something that I had vowed I would. So I began to check past records. Sure enough, I found several huge mistakes of reporting income that I had not tithed.

Immediately a thorough search was done and the tithe paid. And just as immediately my business prospered!! God had heard my prayers of confession and restitution. It was through the Holy Spirit impressing me of this Bible verse in a personal way.

[västergötland]

I had an experience recently where I knew something was wrong in my life. I was not being as blessed as usual and I knew something wasn't right. I was studying the SS lesson about Ecclesiastics and as I opened my Bible, I asked God to please show me what was wrong. I read in Eccl. 5:5 these words:

"Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay."

I was impressed strongly that in my business, I had not paid something that I had vowed I would. So I began to check past records. Sure enough, I found several huge mistakes of reporting income that I had not tithed.

Immediately a thorough search was done and the tithe paid. And just as immediately my business prospered!! God had heard my prayers of confession and restitution. It was through the Holy Spirit impressing me of this Bible verse in a personal way.

A good example of what I believe some people would call a rhema word to you.

[watchbird]

The question I have concerning the wikipedia article is that it lets the pentecostal worldview make the definitions which are then applied to the evangelical explanation.

Ah HA! You have pointed to a VERY important point, Thomas.

If you check the links from this wikipedia article, it is clear that it is written by "Pentecostals"... and not only that, but by Pentecostals who hold to the Rhema teachings. And that includes the comments on what "Evangelicals" believe on the subject.

In order to find out what Evangelicals REALLY think... you will have to go to Evangelical writers. And if you get to stirring around in the Word/Faith and Pentecostal pot very deeply, you will soon find out that not even all Pentecostals are in harmony with the Rhema "schools of thought".

For learning what Evangelicals and Pentecostals other than Word/Faith groups think about Rhema you will have to do some creative thinking when choosing search criteria.

Some hints on that.... take a look at the history of Rhema. Note that it is both a parallel movement (in chronological time) to the Pentecostal Movement... AND an "offshoot" from standard Pentecostal denominations.... or maybe after you have read the history you may think that "invader into" might be a more cogent analogy for much of their activity and growth. But do not look merely at the self-written history on such as the Hagin site... but also look at what observers of the history have to say about it. Probably the fastest way to get to that is to include "cult" or "Christian apologetics" along with Rhema in your search criteria.... for those who do Christian apologetic work in the areas of cults and "new religions" are going to be your best source of information. And by using your scholarly skills you can probably find ways to cut down the amount of "hits" that you get in this area.

Another "hint" is that the Rhema teaching most generally goes hand in hand with such things as "prosperity gospel", the "name it and claim it" preachers, "positive confession", "faith healing", and other such "faith in faith" teachings. After reading a few of the critiques, you will be able to accumulate a list of representative preachers that hold to the teachings. This will help you evaluate the things you see written by those inside the Movement as well as outside.

The pentecostal view as explained by the article then is that when you read the bible and a specific verse stands out to you in a way that it never did before, that is a Rhema and it speaks into some personal situation one is experiencing of about to experience. When you ask for councel from a christian friend and they give advice after having prayed about it, that is a Rhema. Or if you hear a sermon and you get the impression that the preacher must have written that sermon or a part of a sermon just for you, the part which sticks to your mind or hits you is a Rhema. Thus the Spirit, it is believed, personalises the message to fit right into your specific situation.

The Evangelical view on the other hand is that if you are planing on opening a buisness and open a brothel, and want to know what God thinks of it, you go and read leviticus where it says that sex except with your own wife is forbidden. Nothing more nor nothing less, and no specific revelation for your particular case. Buying sex is always wrong, no exceptions and the bible says it, the believer believes it and that settles that. For the evangelical thus, "Rhema" is just a greek word that is translated "word" and there is nothing mystical or otherwise supernatural about it.

I think that what you have done here is simply taken the pentecostal definition of rhema and put the evangelical sticker on it, thus effectively mixing the two up.

Now a different question is, what is the truth in all of this? Are the evangelicals right in saying that to learn Gods will on a subject, if it is covered in the bible it is there for anyone to read black on white. Or are the pentecostals right in saying that Gods Spirit can lead the believer to read and see an answer that deals with that particular situation specifically in a verse that would ordinarily not mean anything in particular to the person nor perhaps even be in a context dealing with the question at all? Could it be that there is truth in both camps and that neither of them have truth patented in their own explanation?

Or could it be that the Rhema Pentecostals that wrote this were caricaturing the Evangelical view of both the functions of the Holy Spirit and the written word of God... and thus you are not actually seeing the true difference between the two views? Obviously, I think this is the case.

[watchbird]

I had an experience recently where I knew something was wrong in my life. I was not being as blessed as usual and I knew something wasn't right. I was studying the SS lesson about Ecclesiastics and as I opened my Bible, I asked God to please show me what was wrong. I read in Eccl. 5:5 these words:

"Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay."

I was impressed strongly that in my business, I had not paid something that I had vowed I would. So I began to check past records. Sure enough, I found several huge mistakes of reporting income that I had not tithed.

Immediately a thorough search was done and the tithe paid. And just as immediately my business prospered!! God had heard my prayers of confession and restitution. It was through the Holy Spirit impressing me of this Bible verse in a personal way.

A good example of what I believe some people would call a rhema word to you.

I don't think so. I think it is a good example of what Ellen White described in the paragraphs Delford brought to us in the previous post... but I do not think that Rhema is a good word for it, for Rhema comes with way too much baggage that doesn't fit with a scriptural way of using scripture. And the problem with using words that have technical meanings like this in other faith communions .... whether or not we intend to give them the same meanings... is that those hearing us use them would not be aware of our different uses, and would assume we meant exactly what the Rhema groups mean by it.

This may be a brand new word to many on this forum. But look how widespread they are! When you read the Christian apologists on the topic you will know that this is not just a Greek word .... but a whole set of doctrines... and they are based on a very specific and "alternate" view of reality.