Rhema: The Basic Belief Of The "word Of Faith Movement"..., How does it relate to Adventism? Options

[LaurenceD]

Maybe it would help if someone could provide a scriptural rhema text and show how it can become a personal application any differently than a scriptural logos.

I do think too much emphasis is being put on both the written and the spoken words. Information, period, is only as good as a map to get you where you are going. Once you see where that is, and recognize the landmarks, the map becomes immaterial. Sure, the map may become sentimental...as it was the key to getting us there, but can you imagine someone that's found their direction, yet still having fun with the map as if its the answer, not the guiding post that led us to the answer?

I'm still not hearing anyone's comments about the verse in John 5:38-40 whcih says...

You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Obviously Christ is saying the scriptures are to lead us to HIM, not to get hung up on how precious the scriptures are! The map only has life and gives us hope...till we get to know and reach HIM. Surely, to sup with someone means more than reading each other's letters.

[västergötland]

Maybe it would help if someone could provide a scriptural rhema text and show how it can become a personal application any differently than a scriptural logos.

I do think too much emphasis is being put on both the written and the spoken words. Information, period, is only as good as a map to get you where you are going. Once you see where that is, and recognize the landmarks, the map becomes immaterial. Sure, the map may become sentimental...as it was the key to getting us there, but can you imagine someone that's found their direction, yet still having fun with the map as if its the answer, not the guiding post that led us to the answer?

I'm still not hearing anyone's comments about the verse in John 5:38-40 whcih says...

You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Obviously Christ is saying the scriptures are to lead us to HIM, not to get hung up on how precious the scriptures are! The map only has life and gives us hope...till we get to know and reach HIM. Surely, to sup with someone means more than reading each other's letters.

I thought that this verse is close to, say, "stop reading those travel guides and buy a ticket to experience it yourself" or "Why do you insist on reading all of those cookbooks when you never cook anything anyway?"...

[Ian]

Thanks, Soul. Now if you will just favor us with some statements from some of these other "nobody" spokespersons... as to what they think of those who make this difference.... then we will have a good basis for comparison of views.
You are correct. And what this illustrates is that Rhema and Word/Faith teachings are not confined to the Rhema Institute and those who openly claim to be Word/Faith or Rhema affiliates.

Again I invite you to look at the evaluation of other Baptists and Evangelicals to find what they think of Bill Gothard in particular and of Rhema, Word/Faith, and other such groups.

I don't really care which one of us is correct or incorrect.What matters most to me, is what the truth is, and that we determine that, and move in accord with it, and help others to. I am sure you can agree with that.

I have sent letters of inquiry to all the ministries and sources quoted here in this thread, and if I receive a reply will post that, or all of them if they all reply, regardless of what they say.

In His Amazing Grace...

[awesumtenor]

I don't really care which one of us is correct or incorrect.

What matters most to me, is what the truth is, and that we determine that, and move in accord with it, and help others to. I am sure you can agree with that.

You do realize these statements are contradictory... and also, the discussion is not driven by what matters to you... others participating are entitled to have different positions and to participate for different ends than yours. If you find the conversation meets whatever end you seek, that in no wise obligates the rest of us to stop discussing it.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Ian]

You do realize these statements are contradictory... and also, the discussion is not driven by what matters to you... others participating are entitled to have different positions and to participate for different ends than yours. If you find the conversation meets whatever end you seek, that in no wise obligates the rest of us to stop discussing it.

In His service,
Mr. J

Your personal opinion and judgment? That's fine.

They are NOT contradictory as I meant them. God's truth, and establishing and upholding that is much more important then personal opinions or views, and proving whether we are personally right or wrong. Read what I wrote again, please.

That's all I have to say about that.


2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
Tts 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 24 2007, 08:18 AM

[watchbird]

Maybe it would help if someone could provide a scriptural rhema text and show how it can become a personal application any differently than a scriptural logos.

Actually, that would not help.... since, as Soul pointed out, there is really no difference in these texts. The key to understanding what is going on will be most readily found in reading the Christian apologetic materials. I invite you to do so.

I do think too much emphasis is being put on both the written and the spoken words. Information, period, is only as good as a map to get you where you are going. Once you see where that is, and recognize the landmarks, the map becomes immaterial. Sure, the map may become sentimental...as it was the key to getting us there, but can you imagine someone that's found their direction, yet still having fun with the map as if its the answer, not the guiding post that led us to the answer?

Ah... but see... you are thinking of the word... either written or spoken... as information. But this is NOT the essence of Rhema....

I'm still not hearing anyone's comments about the verse in John 5:38-40 whcih says...

You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Obviously Christ is saying the scriptures are to lead us to HIM, not to get hung up on how precious the scriptures are! The map only has life and gives us hope...till we get to know and reach HIM. Surely, to sup with someone means more than reading each other's letters.

Yes He is saying that. But the scriptures are still the primary way that God speaks to us.... and when we fill our minds with scripture, then the Holy Spirit has a vast abundance of things which He can "bring to our remembrance", as scripture describes his function and how He works.

I thought that this verse is close to, say, "stop reading those travel guides and buy a ticket to experience it yourself" or "Why do you insist on reading all of those cookbooks when you never cook anything anyway?"...

Not at all. This was another one of those "both/and" situations... not an "either/or". The point was that the Jewish leaders were refusing to see in Christ the very one that they were learning about in the scriptures they possessed. Christ did not tell them to stop reading the scriptures... He told them that what they should be getting out of the scriptures was their witness to HIM.... rather than the spiritual pride they were manifesting in the mere fact that they HAD the scriptures. If they had seen Him in the scriptures... they would have both accepted Him and treasured the scriptures..... precisely as the disciples and apostles did.... presenting Christ as the Messiah by showing that He fulfilled the expectations and promises of the coming One as foretold in Scripture.

When we have a true relationship with Christ, we value the scriptures MORE than we do when we only have a mere knowledge of what they say.... not less.

You must never forget the analogical and parabolic qualities of scripture. Christ does NOT stand at the door of our house and come in and take a meal with us. He DOES stand at the "door" of our "heart" (our understanding) and communicate with us in our thought processes. And to safeguard against any other being who might affect our thought processes, He gives us scripture so we may recognize the thoughts we generate... as to whether they are things the Holy Spirit is bringing to our memory or whether they are the temptations of the tempter.

[LaurenceD]

Actually, that would not help.... since, as Soul pointed out, there is really no difference in these texts.

My point exactly. So it would help in such a way as to see if there is/is not any difference...and in such a way as only examples can better demonstrate.

Ah... but see... you are thinking of the word... either written or spoken... as information. But this is NOT the essence of Rhema....

But...it is the means, right? And if so, information is being used for something here and cannot be seen as something entirely separate.

Yes He is saying that. But the scriptures are still the primary way that God speaks to us.... and when we fill our minds with scripture, then the Holy Spirit has a vast abundance of things which He can "bring to our remembrance", as scripture describes his function and how He works.

I think there's a deeper parallel for us in that verse. I envite you to be open to it.

[LaurenceD]

I thought that this verse is close to, say, "stop reading those travel guides and buy a ticket to experience it yourself" or "Why do you insist on reading all of those cookbooks when you never cook anything anyway?"...

Yes. Or, why do you keep reading all those letter when I've come to visit with you. If you can pull yourself away from that desk, let's go for a more meaningful walk in life. I know you. We don't even have to talk. I carry the essence of who you are with me.

[awesumtenor]

But...it is the means, right? And if so, information is being used for something here and cannot be seen as something entirely separate.

It is *a* means... not the means... it is a means when the 'rhema' is for you... it takes on an altogether different, and, IMO, scarier quality when the rhema is one's "speaking into" someone else's life things that arent as though they were... particularly when applied as "name it, claim it" or "sowing a seed of faith"... Often when one is telling another that the Lord told them something to tell that one, often we see scripture alluded to but rarely directly referenced.

In His service,
Mr. J

[watchbird]

Yes. Or, why do you keep reading all those letter when I've come to visit with you. If you can pull yourself away from that desk, let's go for a more meaningful walk in life. I know you. We don't even have to talk. I carry the essence of who you are with me.

Are you moving over into mysticism here?

Why would it have to be either or? Does not the person who values scripture also take Jesus with him through all his activites of life?

[watchbird]

It is *a* means... not the means... it is a means when the 'rhema' is for you... it takes on an altogether different, and, IMO, scarier quality when the rhema is one's "speaking into" someone else's life things that arent as though they were... particularly when applied as "name it, claim it" or "sowing a seed of faith"... Often when one is telling another that the Lord told them something to tell that one, often we see scripture alluded to but rarely directly referenced.

In His service,
Mr. J

But in what sense is it a "means".... a means to what, by what method, according to what kind of rules of "cause and effect"? I've frequently mentioned worldview.... has anyone here taken that seriously enough to attempt to figure out how that might apply?

[awesumtenor]

But in what sense is it a "means".... a means to what, by what method, according to what kind of rules of "cause and effect"? I've frequently mentioned worldview.... has anyone here taken that seriously enough to attempt to figure out how that might apply?

It is a "means" in the sense that it is allegedly the medium through which the answer they sought was given... the fact that the idea of testing the spirits to see if they are, indeed, of God and proving all things is wholly disregarded... and the underlying feeling that the whole operation smacks of a trip to Endor notwithstanding.

In His service,
Mr. J

[LaurenceD]

Priceless, awsum!

[LaurenceD]

Are you moving over into mysticism here?

Why would it have to be either or? Does not the person who values scripture also take Jesus with him through all his activites of life? -watchbird

No, unless the reality of original Christianity is based on mysticism.

The secret lies in understanding the deeper meaning of the text. Why did they keep searching and repeating the scriptures over and over when the one those texts were written about was right in front of them? Those same people tried to trap the blind man who had been healed by Christ, but he had his new found freedom and they couldn't make him feel guilty. All he knew was that he was once blind and now he could see. And he had a new friend. He didn't need to read and reread all the Pharisees codes of conduct to get the message.

This all reminds me of someone who has somehow convinced themselves they can locate eye salve by using a divining rod on a map. So, they go out, and sure enough (not realizing there's salve avilable everywhere, and to everyone), find some eye slave right there. They get so excited, they go back to the map and divining rod and spend all their time playing with it because it was such a mental thrill!!!! ....and in the meantime, they miss the experience of the healed blind man (life beyond salve and maps).

[Ian]

Taken from Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 5 p. 512 by EGW

"There are three ways in which the Lord reveals his will to us, to guide us, and to fit us to guide others. How may we know his voice from that of a stranger? How shall we distinguish it from the voice of a false shepherd? God reveals his will to us in his word, the Holy Scriptures. His voice is also revealed in his providential workings; and it will be recognized if we do not separate our souls from him by walking in our own ways, doing according to our own wills, and following the promptings of an unsanctified heart, until the senses have become so confused that eternal things are not discerned, and the voice of Satan is so disguised that it is accepted as the voice of God.

"Another way in which God's voice is heard, is through the appeals of his Holy Spirit, making impressions upon the heart, which will be wrought out in the character."

There are 3 ways to know God's will: 1. Holy Scriptures 2. Providential workings and 3. Impressions on the heart by the Holy Spirit.

That is a valuable quote. Thank you. There is indeed more then one way that God reveals hs will to us, and it is not always in his verbalized or spoken word (Logos or rhema, his inspired scriptures), but is always in accord with that..
Your follow up post is a good example of this IMO, and so is Soul Expressos quote from Shelley Quinn

Thank you.

I had an experience recently where I knew something was wrong in my life. I was not being as blessed as usual and I knew something wasn't right. I was studying the SS lesson about Ecclesiastics and as I opened my Bible, I asked God to please show me what was wrong. I read in Eccl. 5:5 these words:

"Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay."

I was impressed strongly that in my business, I had not paid something that I had vowed I would. So I began to check past records. Sure enough, I found several huge mistakes of reporting income that I had not tithed.

Immediately a thorough search was done and the tithe paid. And just as immediately my business prospered!! God had heard my prayers of confession and restitution. It was through the Holy Spirit impressing me of this Bible verse in a personal way.

Drawing a deep breath, I uttered, “Help, Lord!” Again I made the agonizing effort, “Please, Father, help me.” Nothing more would come.

Suddenly I heard a still small voice. It wasn’t audible, it was more like thoughts being impressed upon my mind. Yet it was a voice, and I knew Who it was. God said, “I set before you life and death . . . choose life.” I have chosen life, Father. Jesus Christ is my Savior. If you mean anything more than that, You will have to explain it to me. I’m in no condition to figure it out.

He spoke again. “My Words are not idle words. My Word is life unto you. Anything that does not line up in agreement with My Word is nothing more than a pretentious lie of the enemy. If you choose to believe My Word, you choose life. If you doubt My Word—if you believe the deception of the evil one—you have chosen death.”

The Lord directed me to go to the Bible, seek out His promises related to healing and new beginnings, and hold fast to these. He instructed me to claim His promises, speaking His Word aloud daily. Faith comes by hearing.

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 24 2007, 11:15 AM