Rhema: The Basic Belief Of The "word Of Faith Movement"..., How does it relate to Adventism? Options

[västergötland]

This is but oh well.... ... just for your information....

It has become quite popular.... especially among those Adventist ministries which hold seminars on the Sabbath day.... when of course they could not sell their goods..... to merely give everything away... putting little signs on them saying "suggested donation".... with a dollar amount suggested. (I suppose there are certain advantages to this when it comes to filling out financial reports also... but that is probably a topic for another thread.)

Anyhow... on the 3abn bookstore page, there are no prices given for the books or other materials. However, interestingly enough, when you add something to your cart, it comes up with that amount already filled in.... and below it an opportunity to put in an "additional donation" amount. To be honest, I didn't check to see if one could change the "suggested donation" amount to anything less than the "suggested amount". At that point I just wearied of the whole charade and closed the window.

...... ........

Now, if it turns out that the "suggested donation" is just that, suggested, Id take a second look at that web"store".

[Ian]

Ian, have you ever done any reading in basic world view explanations? If not, you may have to do some study in that area before you can understand what I mean by a "different view of reality."

If you are really serious about understanding... and I really hope that you are... then the place to go is to James Sire and his book, The Universe Next Door, where he explains the concepts of world-views and why it is difficult for someone who has never thought outside of their own views to understand different ways of looking at reality.

However, the next best thing would be to get the book I previously recommended... the smaller one by McConnell.... for he will, I think, be able to help you see the difference in world views between that held by the various Word of Faith groups and that held by mainline, orthodox, Biblical Christianity.

It would be easy enough to point you to the sentences which reveal Shelley's view of reality to me.... but that would not necessarily mean that they would tell you any thing.... unless you have some knowledge of what different worldviews are held by different people.

I shall give it some thought and see if I can think of a way to communicate what I see.... in the meantime you might help yourself and me by doing some reading in some of the Christian critiques of Word of Faith that I'm sure are available on-line, though I don't have them at my finger-tips.

Again, I don't understand you.

I am not interested in comparing "world views" or in studying the differences in them. I just want to understand "God's view". At the moment, due to your posts, I am also trying to understand what it is you find wrong withh Shelly Quinn's view, and how you think it differs from God's word.


Maybe I am not being clear.

What I would like for you to do, is quote from the first chapter you referred to in Shelley Quinn's book, to show where you believe she is wrong. If you do this we will all know what you are referring to.

Next I would like you to quote scriptures which you believe shows why what she wrote is wrong, or in error, and then quote scriptures showing what the truth is biblically.

Can you do that?

Thanks.

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 21 2007, 02:12 PM

[LaurenceD]

You say " She simply has a different view of reality than what scripture portrays."

Perhaps tomorrow you could quote the portion in her very first chapter where you think she has a different view of reality and then show us the view portrayed in the scriptures, and explain how they are different?

It may be plain to you, but I don't understand what you are referring to. I can't see a problem.

I'm reading Chapter 2 right now. Here's the first potential problem I see. Do you see it too?

She says in her opening statement that this truth was unveiled to her...that God's word is life to her. She quotes, "My words are not idle words. My word is life unto you." She goes on to say that God spoke these words to her as she agonized...and added the following also, "Anything that does not line up in agreement to my Word is nothing more than a pretentious lie of the enemy. If you choose to believe my word, you choose life. If you doublt my word--you believe the deception of the evil one--you have chosen death."

Now compare that with Christ's warning to those who search the scriptures because they think there is life in them:

John 5:36 (NIV) "I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

This goes along with what roxe was saying...that Jesus was kind of left out of the picture (asking in Jesus name). Can you see that searching for life in the word can bypass the one to whom the words direct us to?

[Ian]

This is but oh well.... ... just for your information....

It has become quite popular.... especially among those Adventist ministries which hold seminars on the Sabbath day.... when of course they could not sell their goods..... to merely give everything away... putting little signs on them saying "suggested donation".... with a dollar amount suggested. (I suppose there are certain advantages to this when it comes to filling out financial reports also... but that is probably a topic for another thread.)

I would just like to clarify on this thread as the 3ABN website and store is being discussed, that 3ABN doesn't do that.
http://www.3abn.org/store.cfm

3ABN Store
Audio | Books l Clothing |DVD/Video |Music |Satellite | Specials

Note: 3ABN request that you do not place orders from your time zone during the Sabbath hours.

[västergötland]

Yes, And thanks for reposting the url. And the link to the book. I was able to capture a copy of that definitions image before it disappeared...to use as a reference later. I also wondered where Quinn's definition came from. Are we putting together our own definitions here, or is there some outside and reliable source that can be used with which there is no disagreement?

One interesting thing I found under Logos, in Answers.com was this:

Some scholars of the Bible have suggested that John made creative use of double meaning in the word "Logos" to communicate to both Jews, who were familiar with the Wisdom tradition in Judaism, and Hellenic polytheism, especially followers of Philo. Each of these two groups had its own history associated with the concept of the Logos, and each could understand John's use of the term from one or both of those contexts. Especially for the Hellenists, however, John turns the concept of the Logos on its head when he claimed "the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us" (v. 14). Similarly, some translations of the Gospel of John into Chinese have used the word "Tao" to translate the "Logos" in a provocative way.

Based on Ian's post above, 1 Strong's Number: 3056 Greek: logos, and 2 Strong's Number: 4487 Greek: rhema, both words can mean utterances. Strong also says

rhema - and utterance (individ., colect., or specific) by impl. a matter or topic (espec. of narration, command, or dispute);

PS: thanks to roxe for making clear the statements in that first post. Nice to see the issue come into focus. I'm beginning to see something specific I can work with.

Jesus as the "Tao" of God? That could be an interesting point of view...

[awesumtenor]

Again, I don't understand you.

I sense a pattern emerging...

I am not interested in comparing "world views" or in studying the differences in them. I just want to understand "God's view". At the moment, due to your posts, I am also trying to understand what it is you find wrong withh Shelly Quinn's view, and how you think it differs from God's word.
Maybe I am not being clear.

You are being quite clear... what you miss is that understanding doesn't come on a platter with 2 sides and a biscuit. You have to roll up your sleeves and seek for it as for hidden treasure... if you are not interested in doing that, you are content to remain blind... and, that being the case, continued discourse with you on the matter would be fruitless.

What I would like for you to do, is quote from the first chapter you referred to in Shelley Quinn's book, to show where you believe she is wrong. If you do this we will all know what you are referring to. Next I would like you to quote scriptures which you believe shows why what she wrote is wrong, or in error, and then quote scriptures showing what the truth is biblically.

Can you do that?

Sorry... again... you are going to have to seek in order to find... if you are unwilling to do what is required for you to discuss the matter knowledgeably, none is going to spoon feed you.

Can it be done? absolutely... will it be done? not a chance. This is big boy school, Ian; that means you have to intellectually fend for yourself... if you can.

In His service,
Mr. J

[LaurenceD]

The second quote from Quinn's book I find confusing is the way she separates Spirit from Word. She does provide definitions for Logos and Rhema, but throughout her book the reader is left to guess, in much of her book anyway, whether she is consistently adhering to her own rules and definitions. It's hard to know, when she uses the word Word, whether she mean rhema or logos.

Here the 2nd quote from Chapter 1:

I'm absoluteluy dependent upon the transforming power of His Spirit and His Word working within me. Without His Spirit, I cannot understand His Word.

Compare that with John 6:63...

the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The conclusion I've come to is that all study, all promises, and all scripture should be used only to point us to Him. We shouldn't get hung up on words as some kind of destination separate from who those words point to. Our common goal is to get there. When he promised his spirit, his comforter, he also made it clear in the same breath, "I will come to you." On Pentecost, EGW says they sensed the presence of the one who had left them.

It soulds like there really is no separation.

Follow the historical us of the term Logos. It has previously meant about 90% more than we Christians give it credit for. As for Rhema, try substituting the word "command" for it. I think that helps in most cases, perhaps not all. Command is in keeping with God's commandments.

[LaurenceD]

(may as well make use of the space in this double post)

As I mentioned above, it's hard to tell whether Quinn means logos or rhema when she uses the word Word. Here's an example from the end of Chapter 1:

God has revelaed to me the central mystery of Christian life--the triumphant entry of his Word...I've learned to exalt his Word above all things. God's Word is the most special treasure in my life.

Is she referring to Christ, or to scripture...promises...texts like the written word? Compare that to the Phil 2:8...

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him...

See the difference? She doesn't make it clear that the Word is Him. In certain places she makes it clear that He is the Word, but in other's the reader is left wondering if the Word is merely his words.
Example:

...the purpose of this study is to reveal why and how you can please God by giving his Word the highest place in your life. This is a life-changing study.

"Study" sounds like reading and memorizing scripture, etc. "Study" sounds like the written word, not like giving some person (Him) the highest priority in your life.

I've heard of Christians who believe the still small voice is so still it sits on your shelf and collects dust, and so small you have to get your glasses out to read it. She describes this voice as being more than the printed word but goes on to say it's registered in the mind in the form of something like thoughts/words. Chapter 2:

Suddenly I heard a still small voice--it was more like thoughts being impress upon my mind. Yet it was a voice and I knew who it was. (and this is where God tell her His "Words" are not idle, His Word is life)

Notice how she wanders from what is apparently merely "words" (only capitalized) to The Word (Christ?)...and all in one sentence.

This post has been edited by LaurenceD: Sep 21 2007, 10:11 PM

[beartrap]

Perhaps this "Rhema" or "Logos" thing, or whatever it is, represents the programming mentioned in the Pickle/Joy suit that is not denominational?

BTW. I have seen in this thread where people can become confused about the use of the name "Pentecostal." Apparently some people use the term generically when referencing Charismatics. That can be confusing to those of us who know Pentecostals, and know them to be a specific denomination, which they are.

[Observer]

Again, I don't understand you.

I am not interested in comparing "world views" or in studying the differences in them. I just want to understand "God's view". At the moment, due to your posts, I am also trying to understand what it is you find wrong withh Shelly Quinn's view, and how you think it differs from God's word.
Maybe I am not being clear.

What I would like for you to do, is quote from the first chapter you referred to in Shelley Quinn's book, to show where you believe she is wrong. If you do this we will all know what you are referring to.

Next I would like you to quote scriptures which you believe shows why what she wrote is wrong, or in error, and then quote scriptures showing what the truth is biblically.

Can you do that?

Thanks.

An understanding of the world view of a writer will often be helplful in understanding that writer. It will often be helplful to be able to contrast that writer's world view with other world views.

[LaurenceD]

What I would like for you to do, is quote from the first chapter you referred to in Shelley Quinn's book, to show where you believe she is wrong. If you do this we will all know what you are referring to.

I'm a little uncomfortable with someone saying they could write the Bible if it hadn't alrady been written.

"I would write a book on this if it hadn't already been written. Most likely, you have the book on your night table or desk or on a shelf somewhere. It's the Bible." (Chapter 4)

[Ozzie]

I'm a little uncomfortable with someone saying they could write the Bible if it hadn't alrady been written.

"I would write a book on this if it hadn't already been written. Most likely, you have the book on your night table or desk or on a shelf somewhere. It's the Bible." (Chapter 4)

I feel extremely uncomfortable with anyone who makes that claim!

[LaurenceD]

I vaguely recall seeing a picture (or drawing) of EGW in a similar position...and holding the Bible. Does anyone recall seeing that picture? Is SQ suppose to be the new EGW?

[judibug60]

I vaguely recall seeing a picture (or drawing) of EGW in a similar position...and holding the Bible. Does anyone recall seeing that picture? Is SQ suppose to be the new EGW?

I most distinctly recall that picture of EGW....I have it in several of her books....and NO ......Shelly Quinn does not hold that position.....Not in my mind anyway......and never will................

[Observer]

I'm a little uncomfortable with someone saying they could write the Bible if it hadn't alrady been written.

"I would write a book on this if it hadn't already been written. Most likely, you have the book on your night table or desk or on a shelf somewhere. It's the Bible." (Chapter 4)

Could you give us a page for the citation.

The reason I ask is that her book has been posted on the Internet. But it is a preview ediltion in whilch individual pages have not been posted. I note that several pages of chapter 4 have not been posted. I am just wondering if the above reference was one of those.

Thanks,

This post has been edited by Observer: Sep 22 2007, 06:25 AM