Rhema: The Basic Belief Of The "word Of Faith Movement"..., How does it relate to Adventism? Options

[roxe]

<snip>
I'd like to do these things but getting Quinn's book would take four hours of driving and getting to a seminary library would take three ... can anyone else help? I'm also unable to use my computer more than a few hours per week ...
Soul

SE, I called 3abn, gave them my credit card info over the phone. At that time, the book was only $5.95 with free shipping.

added:
Just checked 3abn's store... it is listed in the book section. Now the suggested donation is $12.50.

[västergötland]

SE, I called 3abn, gave them my credit card info over the phone. At that time, the book was only $5.95 with free shipping.

added:
Just checked 3abn's store... it is listed in the book section. Now the suggested donation is $12.50.

The suggested donation?

[Ian]

To the best of my knowledge, the "Exalting His Word" programs on rhema (I think there are 3-4 of them) are exactly the same as in the book "Exalting His Word".


Years ago we had the ABC's of prayer, also based on claiming God's promises. Ask, believe and claim, this is much the same. Rhema affirmation is merely speaking the word of God aloud, claiming those promises personally, and by faith putting them into practice.

As the Psalmist once penned under inspiration, "Thy word have I hid in my heart , that I might not sin against thee."

According to the programs and book, here is the working definition of Logo's and Rhema which Shelley Quinn uses and where she got them from:





I'll look up the definitions in the references given and post them too.

Then maybe we can all see if we're on the same page as far as definitions of Logos and Rhema go, by looking at the scriptures which use these words and looking at how they are used?

I do understand the concerns raised here and that there are those who may believe that what is being taught regarding "Rhema" is false, or misleading; but what I do not understand is why nobody can or will provide a specific quote or reference from Shelley Quinn which led to their concern, so that this can be discussed and examined, and others can know whether this is something they should be concerned about also.

Surely before we post warnings or concerns, or say we disagree with somebody or something, we should be able to give specific examples to illustrate what we are talking about, and explain why?

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 21 2007, 10:03 AM

[Ian]

I don't really know how to post images, or how to upload them from my computer on this forum, so if anyone is unable to see the image, please let me know.

Thanks.

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 21 2007, 10:04 AM

[roxe]

<snip>
I do understand the concerns raised here and that there are those who may believe that what is being taught regarding "Rhema" is false, or misleading; but what I do not understand is why nobody can or will provide a specific quote or reference from Shelley Quinn which led to their concern, so that this can be discussed and examined, and others can know whether this is something they should be concerned about also.
Surely before we post warnings or concerns, or say we disagree with somebody or something, we should be able to give specific examples to illustrate what we are talking about, and explain why?

The reason I can't supply "exact quotes"... I no longer have the book.

Now, having studied this out for myself, to me the ABC's of Prayer goes along with the Faith and Acceptance chapter in Steps to Christ. There is a paragraph in that chapter that really speaks to me about the difference between truth and error regarding this topic:

"I believe it. It is so. Not because I feel it; but because God has promised."

TO ME,
faith is taking God at HIS word... and quietly going about my business, or His business as the case may be, leaving the fulfillment to His timing... knowing He has my BEST interests at heart.

TO ME,
It does NOT mean taking God's word, putting it into my OWN words and repeating it over and over again for hours each day until "something happens". It doesn't mean either that when that "something happens", from then on, my spoken words, thoughts and dreams are directly from God.

I sincerely hope and pray that God is leading Shelley to see the difference between true faith and the "faith" that the world practices; and that her new book shows that positive progression.

[roxe]

<snip>
Years ago we had the ABC's of prayer, also based on claiming God's promises. Ask, believe and claim, this is much the same. Rhema affirmation is merely speaking the word of God aloud, claiming those promises personally, and by faith putting them into practice.

In the later chapters of the old book I had, she was teaching that in rhema affirmations you take scriptures pertaining to what you wish to receive from God, put them into your own words, and repeat them over and over again for hours each day until "something happens", which could take months. There were pages listing examples of specific prayers, such as "salvation", "health", etc., and the Bible texts used.

Also, in the Prayer Warrior emails I received, prayers for health and healing were expressed as rhema affirmations that healing is going to happen. There was no mention of "Thy will be done".

According to what I read in the SOP, every prayer for health and healing is to have "Thy will be done" in it; since only God knows whether the person's healing will be to His glory.

[Ian]

The reason I can't supply "exact quotes"... I no longer have the book.

Now, having studied this out for myself, to me the ABC's of Prayer goes along with the Faith and Acceptance chapter in Steps to Christ. There is a paragraph in that chapter that really speaks to me about the difference between truth and error regarding this topic:

"I believe it. It is so. Not because I feel it; but because God has promised."

TO ME,
faith is taking God at HIS word... and quietly going about my business, or His business as the case may be, leaving the fulfillment to His timing... knowing He has my BEST interests at heart.

TO ME,
It does NOT mean taking God's word, putting it into my OWN words and repeating it over and over again for hours each day until "something happens". It doesn't mean either that when that "something happens", from then on, my spoken words, thoughts and dreams are directly from God.

I sincerely hope and pray that God is leading Shelley to see the difference between true faith and the "faith" that the world practices; and that her new book shows that positive progression.

What do you mean by "putting it in my own words"? Like what? Can you remember a example?

As far as "repeating it over and over for hours each day"?
or "feelings"? or "Having the "rhema" makes you a prophet."?

I'm sorry. I don't know what you are talking about. I didn't in your first post either.

I realize you no longer have the book, but the things you are saying are not in the book I am looking at, at least not that I can find. I haven't ever heard anything like that in any of the programs referred to either? That is why it would be helpful if you did have some quotes and specific examples.

Maybe you are talking about, or thinking of another book?


I don't know what else to say.

There is clearly something amiss here.

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 21 2007, 10:23 AM

[PeacefulBe]

To the best of my knowledge, the "Exalting His Word" programs on rhema (I think there are 3-4 of them) are exactly the same as in the book "Exalting His Word".
Years ago we had the ABC's of prayer, also based on claiming God's promises. Ask, believe and claim, this is much the same. Rhema affirmation is merely speaking the word of God aloud, claiming those promises personally, and by faith putting them into practice.

As the Psalmist once penned under inspiration, "Thy word have I hid in my heart , that I might not sin against thee."

According to the programs and book, here is the working definition of Logo's and Rhema which Shelley Quinn uses and where she got them from:

I'll look up the definitions in the references given and post them too.

Then maybe we can all see if we're on the same page as far as definitions of Logos and Rhema go, by looking at the scriptures which use these words and looking at how they are used?

I do understand the concerns raised here and that there are those who may believe that what is being taught regarding "Rhema" is false, or misleading; but what I do not understand is why nobody can or will provide a specific quote or reference from Shelley Quinn which led to their concern, so that this can be discussed and examined, and others can know whether this is something they should be concerned about also.

Surely before we post warnings or concerns, or say we disagree with somebody or something, we should be able to give specific examples to illustrate what we are talking about, and explain why?

Ian,

The image came through just fine. Thank you for posting the definitions for rhema and logos that Shelly Quinn uses in her book. It would be helpful to know where she got the definitions, so your further definitions from references given will be helpful in this discussion. I am pasting in below definitions for the two words as found in the Wikipedia Widtionary, for "logos" and on Wikipedia itself for "rhema". I will let the reader compare Ms. Quinn's published definitions to these from the internet.

This is what I found in Wiktionary for the Greek word "logos":

Etymology 1
From Ancient Greek λόγος (logos) “speech, oration, discourse, quote, story, study, ratio, word, calculation, reason”, from λέγω (lego) “to speak, to converse, to tell a story, to calculate”.

Noun
Singular
logos
Plural
uncountable


logos (uncountable)

1. (philosophy) In Presocratic philosophy, the principle governing the cosmos ; Among the Sophists, the topics of rational argument ; In Stoicism, the active, material, rational principle of the cosmos
2. (Judaism) The word of God, which itself has creative power; a hypostasis associated with divine wisdom
3. (Christianity) The creative word of God, which is itself God and incarnate in Christ

Translations
Greek: Λόγος, λόγος (logos) m.


Note: This is just a part of what is listed on the Wiktionary link.


This is what I found in Wikipedia for the Greek word "rhema". I am not posting the entire list of texts that use "the Greek word rhema" as "word" but they, of course, can be found on the link:


Rhema (ρημα) Greek ; an utterance (indiv., collect. or spec.); by implication a matter or 'topic' (esp. of narration, command or dispute). From the primary verb Rheo (ρηω) to flow or run , as water; and the suffix ma(μα) , a finite dispensation or portion (eg. "charis", grace ; but "charisma", a portion of grace, (spiritual) gift, etc. From Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Greek word #4487. It can be found in the following New Testament passages (not exhaustive):

Matthew 4:4 "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." (also Luke 4:4)
Matthew 12:36 *Matthew 12:36 "... every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it on the day of judgment..."
Matthew 18:16 "...by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word ( NIV- matter ) may be established."
Matthew 26:75 " Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken..." (also Mark 14:72)
Matthew 27:14 " And He answered him not a word..."

[watchbird]

SE, I called 3abn, gave them my credit card info over the phone. At that time, the book was only $5.95 with free shipping.

added:
Just checked 3abn's store... it is listed in the book section. Now the suggested donation is $12.50.

And the book is only the "workbook". There are 24 DVDs in the set with a $10.00 "suggested donation" for each one. See them HERE <<<<.

I'll be glad to analyze any of these and report back... if anyone wants to send them to me. (If you do, contact me by PM and we'll figure out some way to ship them confidentially.)

Until then I'd suggest that everyone familiar yourselves with the urls given in Clay's thread, paying attention not only to those which are posted by Word of Faith Movement sites, but also to those posted by other Evangelicals and Pentecostals who do NOT accept the idea of Rhema being significantly different from Logos... especially in the way in which Word of Faith adherents interpret and apply it. If you will put Rhema and cult in as google search functions, you will have opportunity to read what the Christian critics of the Movement have to say about it.

Remember, the goal is not to merely pass some sort of "judgment" on Shelley Quinn's teachings, but to equip ourselves so that we can properly discern between truth and error ourselves.... where ever error may be found and however well it may be homogenized with Christian truths.

For those who are interested in equipping themselves this way, I would recommend two books for starters.... One that gives the history of Pentecostalism from its beginnings in the early 20th century to its many developments in the later years of that century. This is (giving the amazon.com entry), Fire from Heaven: The Rise of Pentecostal Spirituality and the Reshaping of Religion in the 21st Century by Harvey Cox (Paperback - May 8, 2001) Buy new: $18.95 $14.78 37 Used & new from $4.45.

This should be in EVERY minister's library.... and should be thoroughly read, masticated, and assimilated. It should also be in the library of every church member who is serious about exercising discernment among the many new ideas both outside and inside of Adventism today.

The other is specifically on the history of the Word of Faith Movement. Again citing amazon.com, this is, A Different Gospel: Biblical and Historical Insights into the Word of Faith Movement by D. R. McConnell (Paperback - Feb 1, 1995) Buy new: $14.95 $11.66 26 Used & new from $6.90.

This one is especially important for SDAs since in the persons of Waggoner and Jones (and other lesser known historical figures) we had our own brush with the same errancies as were foundational to the Word of Faith Movement. But enough for now. We can discuss things moe cogently the more research various ones do into the relevent material.

I think it important to realize that this is not just a simple topic of exactly what words Shelley uses in her book. While this was the entry into this topic, notice that my thread title implied a focus on the basic belief that supports the use of the word Rhema in the distinctive way used by Word of Faith persons.

And secondarily, what relationship this has to Adventist doctrines... both mainline and fringe... as well as historical and current.

Yes, we can start by examining Ms Quinn's writing. But that cannot be sufficient in itself, nor will that provide us with answers to some very important questions... including the one that Di raised earlier as to how this kind of teaching would go over with the "historic Adventists" which some see as the main target audience of 3abn.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Research cannot be done in an hour. I hope there are some who will resist the impulse to take one or two things and run with them, choosing rather to settle in for the long haul into the material that needs to be covered.

[watchbird]

Just checked 3abn's store... it is listed in the book section. Now the suggested donation is $12.50.

The suggested donation?

This is but oh well.... ... just for your information....

It has become quite popular.... especially among those Adventist ministries which hold seminars on the Sabbath day.... when of course they could not sell their goods..... to merely give everything away... putting little signs on them saying "suggested donation".... with a dollar amount suggested. (I suppose there are certain advantages to this when it comes to filling out financial reports also... but that is probably a topic for another thread.)

Anyhow... on the 3abn bookstore page, there are no prices given for the books or other materials. However, interestingly enough, when you add something to your cart, it comes up with that amount already filled in.... and below it an opportunity to put in an "additional donation" amount. To be honest, I didn't check to see if one could change the "suggested donation" amount to anything less than the "suggested amount". At that point I just wearied of the whole charade and closed the window.

...... ........


This post has been edited by watchbird: Sep 21 2007, 11:42 AM

[Ian]

And the book is only the "workbook". There are 24 DVDs in the set with a $10.00 "suggested donation" for each one. See them HERE <<<<.

I'll be glad to analyze any of these and report back... if anyone wants to send them to me. (If you do, contact me by PM and we'll figure out some way to ship them confidentially.)

Until then I'd suggest that everyone familiar yourselves with the urls given in Clay's thread, paying attention not only to those which are posted by Word of Faith Movement sites, but also to those posted by other Evangelicals and Pentecostals who do NOT accept the idea of Rhema being significantly different from Logos... especially in the way in which Word of Faith adherents interpret and apply it. If you will put Rhema and cult in as google search functions, you will have opportunity to read what the Christian critics of the Movement have to say about it.

Remember, the goal is not to merely pass some sort of "judgment" on Shelley Quinn's teachings, but to equip ourselves so that we can properly discern between truth and error ourselves.... where ever error may be found and however well it may be homogenized with Christian truths.

For those who are interested in equipping themselves this way, I would recommend two books for starters.... One that gives the history of Pentecostalism from its beginnings in the early 20th century to its many developments in the later years of that century. This is (giving the amazon.com entry), Fire from Heaven: The Rise of Pentecostal Spirituality and the Reshaping of Religion in the 21st Century by Harvey Cox (Paperback - May 8, 2001) Buy new: $18.95 $14.78 37 Used & new from $4.45.

This should be in EVERY minister's library.... and should be thoroughly read, masticated, and assimilated. It should also be in the library of every church member who is serious about exercising discernment among the many new ideas both outside and inside of Adventism today.

The other is specifically on the history of the Word of Faith Movement. Again citing amazon.com, this is, A Different Gospel: Biblical and Historical Insights into the Word of Faith Movement by D. R. McConnell (Paperback - Feb 1, 1995) Buy new: $14.95 $11.66 26 Used & new from $6.90.

This one is especially important for SDAs since in the persons of Waggoner and Jones (and other lesser known historical figures) we had our own brush with the same errancies as were foundational to the Word of Faith Movement. But enough for now. We can discuss things moe cogently the more research various ones do into the relevent material.

I think it important to realize that this is not just a simple topic of exactly what words Shelley uses in her book. While this was the entry into this topic, notice that my thread title implied a focus on the basic belief that supports the use of the word Rhema in the distinctive way used by Word of Faith persons.

And secondarily, what relationship this has to Adventist doctrines... both mainline and fringe... as well as historical and current.

Yes, we can start by examining Ms Quinn's writing. But that cannot be sufficient in itself, nor will that provide us with answers to some very important questions... including the one that Di raised earlier as to how this kind of teaching would go over with the "historic Adventists" which some see as the main target audience of 3abn.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Research cannot be done in an hour. I hope there are some who will resist the impulse to take one or two things and run with them, choosing rather to settle in for the long haul into the material that needs to be covered.

I do not think going to those in error and seeing what they say, and write, and teach, and how they define Rhema and logos is the way to find truth. I believe that causes confusion.

Nor do I believe reading about the movement you refer to proves anything about what is being taught on the "Exalting His Word" program on 3ABN. It is because of Shelly Quinns programs and book that this topic is being discussed in this 3ABN forum, isn't it?

For the truth we need to go to the law and the testimony.

To prove truth and error we need to compare what is being taught to the scriptures.

Isn't that how we always prove Adventist truth, and rule out error?

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 21 2007, 10:41 AM

[princessdi]

I'd like to add one more element to this. Can we get someone who is actually practicing and has current knowledge of Word of Faith, Rhema today? I don't doubt the validity of the info in that which is supplied by Clay. However, since the person used to be a part of it. It's like getting all your info aobut SDAs from ex-SDAs. All their info is going to be from a stand point of why they have rejected that former belief system. Does that make sense?

[grandmad]

I have never posted, but read a lot. This idea of Rhema concerned me, so got on the web and did some searching. This site helped me to understand it:

http://ati.iblp.org/ati/family/articles/concepts/rhema/

[fallible humanbe...]

Soul,

Ian has provided a link to a page from the book that shows Ms. Quinn's working definitions. I will add some additional information here to, hopefully, flesh out the discussion further.

The raw stats on the usage of the words rhema and logos are:
rhema total usage 63 (Link to source for rhema here)
logos total usage 318 (Link to source for logos here)


Concisely put, here are the definitions that Ms. Quinn uses in her book (p. 81) as she discusses "rhema" and "logos" :

Logos implies the sum of God's revelation to humanity.
In presenting her understanding (and working definition) of the word logos she uses the following text as example of the words usage, Philipians 2:16:
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. (KJV)

Rhema implies a specific word spoken by God that has an applied purpose.
And presenting her understanding (and working definition) of the word "rhema" she uses the following text, Luke 5:5:
And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net. (KJV)

A web page I came across yesterday dealing with the words and the issue of Pentecostal/Charismatic interpretation and usage of the said words. There is a brief historical explanation of the development/rise of the Pentecostal application/origins of the "rhema" concept that is being attributed to Ms. Quinn.

If any who feel that she is teaching in error can work from this explanation of origin and apply it directly to specific examples of her book or her appearances on 3ABN that would be helpful.

Can anyone find examples of the Pentecostal definition and application of the Charismatic idea in her work (work or on-air)?
Or has her use of the word been wrongly connected to the issue of the Pentecostal/Charismatic teaching . . . and a wrong accusation made because of the potential controversy surrounding the word "rhema"?

- FHB

This I think is the most important thing that can be done in this discussion. We need someone who has Ms. Quinn's book to look up where in the book she makes her definitions, and to post them.

For the context of logos vs rhema in NT, it would be helpful to look through things in the Bible to see how each are used in their respective passages. It would take a while because they're common words, but ... if you want to know what the Bible teaches, you have to study the Bible.

Soul

[watchbird]

I do not think going to those in error and seeing what they say, and write, and teach, and how they define Rhema and logos is the way to find truth. I believe that causes confusion.

Neither of the authors that I recommended are a part of the Word of Faith Movement. They are scholars which are analysing the two movements.... the larger one which includes all kinds of Pentecostal Movements, and the smaller one which focuses on the history and development and errant practices of the branch of Pentecostalism known as the Word of Faith Movement.

These are both Biblical scholars... they do their description by sound historical and current research, and they do their analysis in comparing their beliefs with scripture. They are both fair minded... that is they speak of the good points of the various groups they analyze as well as pointing out how their errancies do not stand the tests of scriptural interpretation.

I think what causes "confusion" is when people do as you have done here, both closing your eyes and mind to research and not even reading well what was said in recommending these books. When one does not understand what error is, then there is no way in the world to recognize it when it walks up and taps you on the shoulder and introduces itself as the wonderful new light for today!

Nor do I believe reading about the movement you refer to proves anything about what is being taught on the "Exalting His Word" program on 3ABN. It is because of Shelly Quinns programs and book that this topic is being discussed in this 3ABN forum, isn't it?

Yes, we are discussing it here... rather than in the theology forum, since there have been questions raised about the basic belief system of some of the principle directors at 3abn. Reading about the Word of Faith Movement... and the Pentecostal Movement... will "prove" nothing about what is being taught on 3abn. It WILL however, provide us with the information that we need in order to say whether or not what is being taught is more like Word of Faith Pentecostalism than it is like SDAism.... and why.

For the truth we need to go to the law and the testimony.

To prove truth and error we need to compare what is being taught to the scriptures.

Isn't that how we always prove Adventist truth, and rule out error?

The simple facts are that there is way too much information in the world for every person to start from scratch and learn everything for himself. So the most of us take advantage of the results of other's years of study and analysis. Those who do not, are pretty much at the "mercy" of every wind of doctrine... especially if it comes with smooth sayings and makes us "feel good"... and uses a lot of Biblical texts that seemingly support what is being said.

If you are so confident in your own ability to see everything just as it is so you don't need any input from scholars on it.... then by all means... don't waste your time reading what others think on any subject. But just know that God uses many tools to get his work done... and if you refuse to utilize the tools He provides, then don't blame Him if you fall into deception around some bend of the road.