Rhema: The Basic Belief Of The "word Of Faith Movement"..., How does it relate to Adventism? Options

[watchbird]

Since the post that Whitey started on 3abn programming seemed to be headed in at least three distinctly different ways, I've taken the liberty of extracting those posts having to do with the sub-topic of "Rhema" and beginning a new thread with them.

It does all seem pretty SDA-oriented, but I have wondered for a while about Shelley Quinn's "Rhema" teaching. It sounds strange to me.

Yes, indeed, it does. And this is what I was referring to previously... calling it "Pentecostal"... which was not exactly right since it actually comes from the "Word of Faith Movement" vocabulary and basic belief system.... which, while generally classed as "Pentecostal", is a distinctly different movement which is often criticized even by what one might call "main line Pentecostals". And it certainly is criticized by Evangelicals in general. Adventists, OTOH, have been strangely silent about warning our members of these various abberant groups which others label as "Christian cults".

I haven't seen or heard anything about this "Rhema" teaching. Do you care to say a little something about it for those of us not familiar with it?

I don't know anything about it either!

It has something to do with the effects of speaking scripture on a person, I think, but there are some others on the forum who might know more of what it is and what its origins are.

You have at least part of the essence of it when you express it as "speaking scripture on a person". It is, as it suggests by these words, a use of scripture that is more like an "incantation" than it is using scripture as a source of information about God and how He deals with people.

The concept grows out of the "New Thought" belief in the power of human thought to create anything that the human mind can conceive. When it is amalgamated with Christian scriptures and Theism, it includes God in the formula, and is often spoken of as "the intrinsic power in the Word of God such that it has the same power when spoken today as when God Himself originally spoke it". If you can stretch your mind around the concept you can perhaps see that this makes anything written in scripture a "magic wand" to accomplish whatever one finds there that can be applied to a current situation. Thus... "speaking scripture on a person" as you so aptly spoke it.

It will be well to explore more of the way this is used in the Word of Faith Movement before getting into the question of my thread title... "How does it relate to Adventism?". But for now I'll just say that there are indeed strains of this type of use of scripture within Adventism... both in the early years and in the present.... though bringing the term "Rhema" into Adventism is something entirely new so far as I know, and IMO suggests a link to the Word of Faith Movement that would be a step towards the danger of spiritualism that Ellen White warned us would be facing us more and more as time went on.

You can read about it here. Its a charismatic kind of church located in Tulsa Oklahoma. You can see their facilities from the Broken Arrow Express Way. This is not a Seventh Day Adventist Teaching...so proceed at your own risk.

http://www.rhema.org/Main/index.php

Respectfully,

Willow

It is actually more than "a charismatic kind of church"... this is the website for the headquarters of the Word of Faith Movement, with Kenneth Hagin as the acknowledged leader. If you look around the website a bit you will find a directory of churches that are affiliated with this Movement. I believe they are congregationally oriented, so it is not quite right to call them a "Denomination".

You are correct that this is not a Seventh-day Adventist teaching.... however, as I hinted above, there are certain similarities between Adventist beliefs and practices and Word of Faith beliefs and practices. And this very fact makes it easy for an Adventist to get sucked in by the Word of Faith terms.

Rhema, Greek for the "spoken word". It seems to be a charismatic and fundamentalist church, also associated with speaking in tongues and faith healing.

Shelley Quinn has some specific exercises she goes through having to do with Bible passages, I think, although I didn't watch much of it.

Shelly Quinn is often saying "God told me" this or that, or "God showed me a scripture" etc. What was her former church affiliation? Does anyone know. People pick up certain speech habits and religious phrases etc. that may not mean a lot in terms of thier actual experience. On the other hand people can be deceived if they dabble in some of the charismatic practices. One Adventist pastor lost his way from attending only one Benny Him service.

Shelly was a Pentecostal Minister before being "converted" to the SDA doctrines of the Sabbath and what we call the State of the Dead. Does anyone know what specific church she came from?

There are two chief problems with Word of Faith doctrine. One is the use of scripture in a magical way as I've mentioned above. The other is the over literalization of such phrases as "God told me" which essentially expects that every person will have the "gift of prophecy"... but in ways that even the prophets themselves never had it.

To the prophets, God gave messages... in different ways and means and at times of God's own choosing. In the modern day Word of Faith concept of the gift of prophecy, everyone is a prophet... and God speaks to the person whenever he asks... in fact.... according to Shelly and other "Pentecostals" at 3abn, every impression of your mind is a direct Word from God.

[princessdi]

Advenitst neither understand nor believe in this spiritual manifestation. Now if 3ABN is engagin in such, they may, indeed, be slowly but deliberately turning Non denom, or at least away from Adventism. Who knows?

I am just curioius about whoat that would do for thier obviously "Hisotric Adventist" supporters. Some are rather zealous in the support anf defense.......rhema? I dont' know how that would fit?

[Sybil]

My former SDA brother uses this term - Rhema. Glad to have this topic - thank you!

I seem to recall Shelley saying she came from the Church of Christ rather than Pentecostal.

[roxe]

About a year before reading this forum about 3abn, I had gotten Shelley's book "Exalting the Word". In there, she explains all about the rhema and how to incorporate it into one's prayer life. From my study of the book and the examples she gives and the specific prayers she lists, you take an hour each day saying these prayers over and over for as many months required to receive the "answer" from God; and when the "answer" comes you have received the "rhema" and from then on every thought you think... every dream you have... every word that comes out of your mouth is directly from God and under His control.

You DEMAND that God does just as you keep saying over and over each day. During these "prayers", you NEVER ask in Jesus' name, you NEVER say "Thy will be done". I was a part of the 3abn prayer warriors and this is the way the "prayser" were written out in the emails informing of the various prayer requests.

I actually called and spoke with Shelley once. She told me that she was NOT to pray for or with anyone over the phone. After talking a few minutes, she said that she would make an exception in my case and proceeded to pray the most incredible prayer. I can't say what was in that prayer; it is gone from my memory. But I do remember what I was thinking while she was saying this prayer: "why is she demanding?" "why doesn't she say 'Thy will be done'?" why doesn't she pray "in Jesus' name'?" I remember having one of the best days in a long time after getting off the phone with her. I emailed her that evening thanking her for her prayer and telling her how the day had been so peaceful and quiet. The next morning I read her reply email that "now everything is just fine with you. Praise the Lord!"

But it wasn't. The problems were back with a vengeance and only got worse.

The book Steps to Christ kept coming into my mind, to read and reread it. I did, and it literally pointed me in the right direction and saved my life.

It's funny... or maybe it isn't funny... but I knew there was something horribly wrong at 3abn before I ever started reading here. After several days of trying what is instructed in "Exalting the Word" I quit using the book, cuz I was so uncomfortable about it. Eventually I destroyed it and removed it from my home. Didn't want anything like that attracting the wrong spirit around me.

I've read that Shelley, ET Everet(sp?), and the Steensons have been telling Danny over and over that since there are so many "miracles" happening at 3abn, that he has the "rhema" and that means that every dream he has... every thought that comes into his mind... and every word that comes out of his mouth is DIRECTLY from God and under God's direct control.

Having the "rhema" makes you a prophet.

[princessdi]

Have mercy!! AS I said Adventist need to stop "imitatin' other folks and leave stuff they don't understand alone. Sheesh! They actually say that stuff? Good thing God doesn't deal in bolts of lightening. They all would be crispy critters...talking to Him like that!

Please tell me Danny is not this stupid. He needs to let the Lord work with his pride. This is what these people are preying on and tickling his ears with all this prophet and Rhema talk. He needs to use scripture and tell these folks, "get thee hence!". No matter what his supporters say, this is why Danny has no qualms about compromising his affiliation with the churcha nd even hididng it. He is really in HUGE spiritual trouble here.

About a year before reading this forum about 3abn, I had gotten Shelley's book "Exalting the Word". In there, she explains all about the rhema and how to incorporate it into one's prayer life. From my study of the book and the examples she gives and the specific prayers she lists, you take an hour each day saying these prayers over and over for as many months required to receive the "answer" from God; and when the "answer" comes you have received the "rhema" and from then on every thought you think... every dream you have... every word that comes out of your mouth is directly from God and under His control.

You DEMAND that God does just as you keep saying over and over each day. During these "prayers", you NEVER ask in Jesus' name, you NEVER say "Thy will be done". I was a part of the 3abn prayer warriors and this is the way the "prayser" were written out in the emails informing of the various prayer requests.
I actually called and spoke with Shelley once. She told me that she was NOT to pray for or with anyone over the phone. After talking a few minutes, she said that she would make an exception in my case and proceeded to pray the most incredible prayer. I can't say what was in that prayer; it is gone from my memory. But I do remember what I was thinking while she was saying this prayer: "why is she demanding?" "why doesn't she say 'Thy will be done'?" why doesn't she pray "in Jesus' name'?" I remember having one of the best days in a long time after getting off the phone with her. I emailed her that evening thanking her for her prayer and telling her how the day had been so peaceful and quiet. The next morning I read her reply email that "now everything is just fine with you. Praise the Lord!"

But it wasn't. The problems were back with a vengeance and only got worse.

The book Steps to Christ kept coming into my mind, to read and reread it. I did, and it literally pointed me in the right direction and saved my life.

It's funny... or maybe it isn't funny... but I knew there was something horribly wrong at 3abn before I ever started reading here. After several days of trying what is instructed in "Exalting the Word" I quit using the book, cuz I was so uncomfortable about it. Eventually I destroyed it and removed it from my home. Didn't want anything like that attracting the wrong spirit around me.

I've read that Shelley, ET Everet(sp?), and the Steensons have been telling Danny over and over that since there are so many "miracles" happening at 3abn, that he has the "rhema" and that means that every dream he has... every thought that comes into his mind... and every word that comes out of his mouth is DIRECTLY from God and under God's direct control.

Having the "rhema" makes you a prophet.

[Sybil]

Have mercy!

Been reading here for three years and this is the first thing that really shocks me!

[LaurenceD]

Very enlightening, roxe.

I think that explains a lot and may help in understanding the blind and often rigid attitude that's felt when dealing with these folks. There is a way which seems right unto a person, but in the end it leads to death. Perhaps these folks need a serious bible study on errancy and infallibility, and the pitfalls of self deception--trusting ones own opinion of ones own interpretation of whether...or whether not.

[fallible humanbe...]

Roxe,

About a year before reading this forum about 3abn, I had gotten Shelley's book "Exalting the Word". In there, she explains all about the rhema and how to incorporate it into one's prayer life. From my study of the book and the examples she gives and the specific prayers she lists, you take an hour each day saying these prayers over and over for as many months required to receive the "answer" from God; and when the "answer" comes you have received the "rhema" and from then on every thought you think... every dream you have... every word that comes out of your mouth is directly from God and under His control.

This deserves discussion. However, I think that it would be far more beneficial if you could provide a few passages from Ms. Quinn's book or from her appearances on 3ABN where she conveys a teaching of "rhema" that is in line with the Pentecostal teachings and interpretation of the word. By doing so, you will be providing everyone the opportunity to do personal research into not only Ms. Quinn's use of the word, definition of the word, and application of the word, but also how the larger Christian body in the world deals with the word and its companion "logos". To review the material that gave you pause provides members here the opportunity to go further than this post and dig deeper into the idea of "rhema vs. logos" and their usages in the New Testament - and it insures that you don't appear to be passing judgment on Ms. Quinn's spiritual life.

Now lest this spin out of control and become fact, when it is evident that at this point it can in NO way be considered such, will you provide a source for such a claim? It has happened far too often here (and other places like here) that someone makes a statement like the one below and withing 24 hours it is quoted as fact. Yogus Bearus and Soul Espresso have both commented on a need for reasoned dialog in regards to any and all concerns (not only about 3ABN but about SDA doctrine). If I am wrong guys let me know. This may very well provide a starting point where we can engage in discussion that is exploratory and factual and not filled with speculation and innuendo.

If Shelly has either included in her book or via her appearances on 3ABN messages that are not in keeping with established SDA doctrine (remembering that we are always to remain open to new truth as God deems we are ready to receive it), then it should be a simple task to provide such allowing us all to review it, research it, and discuss it.

I've read that Shelley, ET Everet(sp?), and the Steensons have been telling Danny over and over that since there are so many "miracles" happening at 3abn, that he has the "rhema" and that means that every dream he has... every thought that comes into his mind... and every word that comes out of his mouth is DIRECTLY from God and under God's direct control.

I believe it is a fair request (for exact examples) and a way to see what is not fact not become so until it can be documented and established as so . . . or if it comes to pass, is proven to be only speculation and misinterpretation of things heard or written. At this point - there is no definitive proof of watchbirds claims against Ms. Quinn.

- FHB

This post has been edited by fallible humanbeing: Sep 20 2007, 03:02 PM

[LaurenceD]

fallible, perhaps you can give us your specific reason for doubting roxe's first hand account as being factual...unless you've just come here to try and create doubt.

You know what the typical response would be from your friends here...if you choose not to believe me--it's your loss, or something to that effect. Or, can you disprove it?

[watchbird]

Have mercy!! AS I said Adventist need to stop "imitatin' other folks and leave stuff they don't understand alone. Sheesh! They actually say that stuff? Good thing God doesn't deal in bolts of lightening. They all would be crispy critters...talking to Him like that!

Please tell me Danny is not this stupid. He needs to let the Lord work with his pride. This is what these people are preying on and tickling his ears with all this prophet and Rhema talk. He needs to use scripture and tell these folks, "get thee hence!". No matter what his supporters say, this is why Danny has no qualms about compromising his affiliation with the churcha nd even hididng it. He is really in HUGE spiritual trouble here.

Have mercy!

Been reading here for three years and this is the first thing that really shocks me!

Very interesting reactions from Di and Sybil. As a matter of fact, these things HAVE been said here before... but obviously not in a way that caught your attention.

But in fact... these are the things that Sister presented very early on in her first person observed though "unauthorized" history of 3abn. If you will go back and read her posts having to do with the "garden" and how she described the things Mollie and Shelly taught Danny and others at 3abn.

These are the things that I kept trying to present... but only under the term "Pentecostalism".... which usually got us sidetracked off into a defense of whatever brand of Pentecostalism the "defenders" held dear to their hearts. Only after I read a post by Di some weeks ago in which she made a clear distinction between Word of Faith and Pentecostalism did I realize that I was using the wrong terminology in my attempts to communicate. In my defense, Word of Faith is generally considered a variety of Pentecostalism. But that is really no excuse since I also was well aware of the distinction.

And while I am not sure where it is, it is also true that Roxe told her story here before also. And it was from her that I realized that the word Rhema was actually being used. Up until that time, I recognized the doctrines (and the worldview level beliefs that undergird them) from the things that Shelly presented on the few 3abn programs that I watched, but I had not been aware of her actually teaching Rhema by that name. Usually when those beliefs and practices are taught by Adventists, they are much more carefully disguised and not labelled so clearly.

At any rate, I am glad that this has finally caught the attention of at least some of you.

And yes, I agree with Fallible to this extent.... this IS something that should be studied and understood by every Adventist who wishes to escape the deceptions of the last days.... for how can one recognize something in disguise unless one understands it when it is openly proclaiming itself. There IS a time to study and understand false doctrine... for how can one recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing if one has no idea what a wolf looks like?

[Ian]

fallible, perhaps you can give us your specific reason for doubting roxe's first hand account as being factual...unless you've just come here to try and create doubt.

You know what the typical response would be from your friends here...if you choose not to believe me--it's your loss, or something to that effect. Or, can you disprove it?

Maybe it's just a misunderstanding? I too would appreciate quotes demonstrating what she is talking about, so we can discuss this.

I have watched Shelly Quinn's "exalting His Word" series and have a far different view.

Rhema is a common greek word, used many times in the New testament.

For example Jesus' answer to Satan's temptation "It is written man shall not live by bread alone, but by ever word {RHEMA} that proceedeth out of the mouth of God"

Pentacostalism and the branches associated with it, mis apply and misinterpret the word Rhema, they apply it to the Holy Spirit speaking directly to someone apart from the bible.

That is not how Shelly Quinn has interpreted it at all, she defined it according to Strong's concordance and is teaching it as it is in the bible, ie taking scriptural passages and applying them to your life, by believing and following them.

The word "Rhema" isn't a problem, no scriptural words are, it's what is taught about them, and how they are used which can be in error.

I hope we are not making someone a offender for a word.

Yes error is taught using the word Rhema, but the word Rhema is a common biblical word, and it does not follow that just because others teach error, that Shelley Quinn is.

I do believe we need some examples and quotes so we can compare what Shelley Quinn says in her book with the scriptures.

Thanks.

[LaurenceD]

Thanks Ian. Perhaps I should phrase my question another way...give us your specific reason for doubting roxe's first hand account as being factual.

[PeacefulBe]

Roxe,

This deserves discussion. However, I think that it would be far more beneficial if you could provide a few passages from Ms. Quinn's book or from her appearances on 3ABN where she conveys a teaching of "rhema" that is in line with the Pentecostal teachings and interpretation of the word. By doing so, you will be providing everyone the opportunity to do personal research into not only Ms. Quinn's use of the word, definition of the word, and application of the word, but also how the larger Christian body in the world deals with the word and its companion "logos". To review the material that gave you pause provides members here the opportunity to go further than this post and dig deeper into the idea of "rhema vs. logos" and their usages in the New Testament - and it insures that you don't appear to be passing judgment on Ms. Quinn's spiritual life.

Now lest this spin out of control and become fact, when it is evident that at this point it can in NO way be considered such, will you provide a source for such a claim? It has happened far too often here (and other places like here) that someone makes a statement like the one below and withing 24 hours it is quoted as fact. Yogus Bearus and Soul Espresso have both commented on a need for reasoned dialog in regards to any and all concerns (not only about 3ABN but about SDA doctrine). If I am wrong guys let me know. This may very well provide a starting point where we can engage in discussion that is exploratory and factual and not filled with speculation and innuendo.

If Shelly has either included in her book or via her appearances on 3ABN messages that are not in keeping with established SDA doctrine (remembering that we are always to remain open to new truth as God deems we are ready to receive it), then it should be a simple task to provide such allowing us all to review it, research it, and discuss it.
I believe it is a fair request (for exact examples) and a way to see what is not fact not become so until it can be documented and established as so . . . or if it comes to pass, is proven to be only speculation and misinterpretation of things heard or written. At this point - there is no definitive proof of watchbirds claims against Ms. Quinn.

- FHB

FHB,

I really agree with your statement that I have bolded above. I think we all have the brains and resources to dig into this one and come up with some answers if we work together and strive for the "reasoned dialogue" that is possible if we just decide to do so.

PB

[fallible humanbe...]

LD,

No one questioned Roxe's comments in regards to her reading the book or her phone call with Ms. Quinn . . . what has been asked, and rightly so if one is going to work out their own position on any issue, are examples that support Roxes concerns. These quotes would enable one to take a look at the situation and research it for themselves - rather than depend on the word of another.

It is one thing to allow for an individuals personal experience and entirely another to take it on as ones own. If you are willing to do so, hear someones words and take them on as your own without searching - then do so, however, the request is not out of line and is quite logical for those seeking to understand the entirety of the situation.

And, please, for the record show us where I stated (or insinuated) that I doubted Roxe's first hand experience. If you are going to engage in a reasoned discussion of the topic you would have no problem with this and would not resort to a blanket statement of generalized insinuation about my first response. Please, dissect if for us and show where I expressed doubt.

- FHB

Thanks Ian. Perhaps I should phrase my question another way...give us your specific reason for doubting roxe's first hand account as being factual.

[LaurenceD]

You: "Now lest this spin out of control and become fact, when it is evident that at this point it can in NO way be considered such..."

Me: give us your specific reason for doubting roxe's first hand account as being factual.