Rhema: The Basic Belief Of The "word Of Faith Movement"..., How does it relate to Adventism? Options

[LaurenceD]

Does it really necessitate doubt as a prerequisite? This is what the FreeOnlineDictionary list of definitions of doubt are:

doubt (dout)
v.intr.
To be undecided or skeptical.

It does seem like a rather negative base for the beginning of a search for fact. I can, however, see a need for a certain amount of skepticism, not to start the search with a preconceived notion about what the end result will be.

Yes, and skepticism is what can cause clouds of doubt to vaporize.

Shall we move on with the understanding that roxe's account is valid (no doubt)? Or, shall we question what it is about roxes account that may possibly be unfactual (doubt)?

[PeacefulBe]

Yes, and skepticism is what can cause clouds of doubt to vaporize.

Shall we move on with the understanding that roxe's account is valid (no doubt)? Or, shall we question what it is about roxes account that may possibly be unfactual (doubt)?

roxe's account is valid as a personal experience. It is valid as her personal interpretation and opinion of that experience. Can it be considered factual? That would be a stretch for several reasons.

What is within our grasp is not to necessarily question the validity of roxe's experience but to discover what the Bible and other resources teach about the subject of rhema and logos and to seek to determine whether or not what Shelly Quinn is teaching is in line with the biblical teaching.

[PeacefulBe]

Link to Wikipedia discussion on rhema and logos

[LaurenceD]

Okay. Which statement(s) shall we focus on that might be considered a stretch--and for what specific reasons? I do want to know so I can focus on a specific area.

About a year before reading this forum about 3abn, I had gotten Shelley's book "Exalting the Word". In there, she explains all about the rhema and how to incorporate it into one's prayer life. From my study of the book and the examples she gives and the specific prayers she lists, you take an hour each day saying these prayers over and over for as many months required to receive the "answer" from God; and when the "answer" comes you have received the "rhema" and from then on every thought you think... every dream you have... every word that comes out of your mouth is directly from God and under His control.

You DEMAND that God does just as you keep saying over and over each day. During these "prayers", you NEVER ask in Jesus' name, you NEVER say "Thy will be done". I was a part of the 3abn prayer warriors and this is the way the "prayser" were written out in the emails informing of the various prayer requests.

I actually called and spoke with Shelley once. She told me that she was NOT to pray for or with anyone over the phone. After talking a few minutes, she said that she would make an exception in my case and proceeded to pray the most incredible prayer. I can't say what was in that prayer; it is gone from my memory. But I do remember what I was thinking while she was saying this prayer: "why is she demanding?" "why doesn't she say 'Thy will be done'?" why doesn't she pray "in Jesus' name'?" I remember having one of the best days in a long time after getting off the phone with her. I emailed her that evening thanking her for her prayer and telling her how the day had been so peaceful and quiet. The next morning I read her reply email that "now everything is just fine with you. Praise the Lord!"

But it wasn't. The problems were back with a vengeance and only got worse.

The book Steps to Christ kept coming into my mind, to read and reread it. I did, and it literally pointed me in the right direction and saved my life.

It's funny... or maybe it isn't funny... but I knew there was something horribly wrong at 3abn before I ever started reading here. After several days of trying what is instructed in "Exalting the Word" I quit using the book, cuz I was so uncomfortable about it. Eventually I destroyed it and removed it from my home. Didn't want anything like that attracting the wrong spirit around me.

I've read that Shelley, ET Everet(sp?), and the Steensons have been telling Danny over and over that since there are so many "miracles" happening at 3abn, that he has the "rhema" and that means that every dream he has... every thought that comes into his mind... and every word that comes out of his mouth is DIRECTLY from God and under God's direct control.

Having the "rhema" makes you a prophet.

[Rosyroi]

slightly off topic.... but within the thread.

By knowing what a sheep looks like?

I agree with you vastergotland. We need to keep our eyes on the sheep at all times.

Reminds me of the story of folk who learn how to spot a fake dollar bill. They don't study the fakes. They study the real thing very intensly that they know it so well that when they do see a fake they can spot it immediately and have no doubt in their minds that it is a fake.

Wolves can disguise themselves in many ways to make themselves appear to be a sheep but those who look at and study the sheep when they see the wolf in sheep's clothing they can spot the fake easily.

This post has been edited by Rosyroi: Sep 20 2007, 08:35 PM

[Fran]

LD,

No one questioned Roxe's comments in regards to her reading the book or her phone call with Ms. Quinn . . . what has been asked, and rightly so if one is going to work out their own position on any issue, are examples that support Roxes concerns. These quotes would enable one to take a look at the situation and research it for themselves - rather than depend on the word of another.

It is one thing to allow for an individuals personal experience and entirely another to take it on as ones own. If you are willing to do so, hear someones words and take them on as your own without searching - then do so, however, the request is not out of line and is quite logical for those seeking to understand the entirety of the situation.

And, please, for the record show us where I stated (or insinuated) that I doubted Roxe's first hand experience. If you are going to engage in a reasoned discussion of the topic you would have no problem with this and would not resort to a blanket statement of generalized insinuation about my first response. Please, dissect if for us and show where I expressed doubt.

- FHB

The last program I watched by Shelley Quinn was about the Rhema. I heard what she said and have never watched her since then, by choice.

I believe Shelley to be a true Christian. I believe she has just failed to rightly divide the "Word" of truth. She sincerely believes what she preaches. She believes God Speaks through specifically Danny and her. I also believe she is wrong. I believe God can speak to anyone he pleases, when he pleases.

She has accepted a new belief, but is trying to keep some of the old and mix it with the new. We all do that at times in our everyday lives. We sin and excuse it as if it is so small that God would never hold that against us. The Bible does teach that there is a time the Lord "Winks" at, and that he judges us from "Whence we came."

It is not for me to judge Shelley on her life. Only God can do that. I just feel personally that I can't listen to her teach anymore. What she says is soothing to the ears and calming to the spirit. She opens the mind to accept beliefs she is still holding on to. Her teachings are all "Feel Good" teachings.

I do not judge Danny about his beliefs much differently except that he has been an Adventist for many years and I well know he understands the beliefs. He has written books and spoken many times about Adventist beliefs. Yet, he has chosen to break away from those beliefs to follow his own pleasures and sought after earthly greatness and wealth IMO. Could he have even accepted the "Old" messages that Shelly brought with her? Maybe.

We have all stopped at some point in time and looked back in shock and speak the words out loud, as if hearing it will make it seem less real, "Just how on earth did we get here from there?" Things change and we don't even realize it is happening.

Did this happen to Danny? Maybe. Did he miss all the warning signs? Does he honestly feel everyone else is wrong and only he is right? What is he truly made of. We are in the process of finding out. May he prove true to his master and follow him in all things.

I believe Jim Gilley and the 3ABN board should pull Shelley's programming and go over this Rhema teaching to see if it stands up to the Adventist message. If it does not, which I believe to be the case in this matter, they should remove those programs from lineup ASAP. This is step one to see if the new board is about a true turning around.

On the other hand, troubles at 3ABN began long before Shelley was ever heard of. Those problems deal with character. May the changes be real. I am watching.

I also have been lifting my prayers for Danny and all of Danny's extended family. Heart Disease is a serious problem, genetic or otherwise. However, we have a gracious God that does heal. I am praying for healing, physical and spiritual, for his family and mine.

[roxe]

roxe's account is valid as a personal experience. It is valid as her personal interpretation and opinion of that experience. Can it be considered factual? That would be a stretch for several reasons.

What is within our grasp is not to necessarily question the validity of roxe's experience but to discover what the Bible and other resources teach about the subject of rhema and logos and to seek to determine whether or not what Shelly Quinn is teaching is in line with the biblical teaching.

Thank you, Peaceful. What I wrote is my personal experience and my own understanding of that experience. I did NOT write it to demean or judge anyone. I have no right to do that at all.

Anyone here has the opportunity to purchase the book and study it for yourself. You may or may not see and understand it the way I have. That is fine. You have that right. You may even join the prayer warriors also. Whether or not the emails will be in the same format as when I was receiving them, I don't know. Neither do I wish to rejoin to find out.

I don't have the book any longer. I don't watch 3abn, simply because I don't wish to expose myself to possible exposure of subtile teaching using SDA buzz words to make it sound OK.

Again, I'm not judging anyone in their personal walk with God. What I wrote is simply my experience; please don't read into it anything else than that.

I agree 100% that error in 3abn's teachings is the most disturbing aspect of this entire mess.

JMHO

[roxe]

<snip>
And while I am not sure where it is, it is also true that Roxe told her story here before also. And it was from her that I realized that the word Rhema was actually being used. Up until that time, I recognized the doctrines (and the worldview level beliefs that undergird them) from the things that Shelly presented on the few 3abn programs that I watched, but I had not been aware of her actually teaching Rhema by that name. Usually when those beliefs and practices are taught by Adventists, they are much more carefully disguised and not labelled so clearly. <snip>

Thanks, watchbird. In Shelley's programs on 3abn--the few that I watched, she never mentioned the word "rhema". It is mentioned in her book, at least the one I received. Whether it is still in there, or the book has been changed, I don't know.

You are right; it is the subtile sneaky incorporating error using SDA buzz words that really worries and upsets me. I even hear it in my own church, constantly.

JMO

This post has been edited by roxe: Sep 21 2007, 01:03 AM

[roxe]

to FHB...

I need to tell you, and the others here, that you won't find in Shelley's book the exact words I used in describing its message in my first post in this thread. Since I no longer have the book, I can't give you the "exact" wording which led me to put my thoughts about it into such few words as I have.

I didn't come up with that "boiled-down bottom line" until months had passed; and I had read sister's account (which I really really wish she would continue), plus having my first conversation about this at Maritime forum with watchbird last year.

I really appreciate how Fran writes her posts here. Oh that I had her grace and tact.

[västergötland]

slightly off topic.... but within the thread.


I agree with you vastergotland. We need to keep our eyes on the sheep at all times.

Reminds me of the story of folk who learn how to spot a fake dollar bill. They don't study the fakes. They study the real thing very intensly that they know it so well that when they do see a fake they can spot it immediately and have no doubt in their minds that it is a fake.

Wolves can disguise themselves in many ways to make themselves appear to be a sheep but those who look at and study the sheep when they see the wolf in sheep's clothing they can spot the fake easily.

Besides, I think a better illustration of our situation here is like looking at an apple tree with plenty of fruit. The question we are studying is wether there are maggots in the apples of not.

[Fran]

Thanks, watchbird. In Shelley's programs on 3abn--the few that I watched, she never mentioned the word "rhema". It is mentioned in her book, at least the one I received. Whether it is still in there, or the book has been changed, I don't know.

You are right; it is the subtile sneaky incorporating error using SDA buzz words that really worries and upsets me. I even hear it in my own church, constantly.

JMO

Roxe;

She did preach a sermon or lesson specifically on "Rhema" on air. I did not tape it though. You are right, I can't judge her heart and I can't judge that program. I would need to watch it again and study it. I have no strong personal desire to study it myself. I believe 3ABN has a committee that evaluates these things though. They are the ones that have the teachings on tape or DVD to study. This I would guess would be their assigned work. I don't believe I know enough about it to judge it correctly in the eyes of the church.

I just personally did not agree with it at that time, nor do I agree now. That does not make it right or wrong. I will leave that to those with more Biblical knowledge than myself. I just see the problem as an easy fix for the new President to take care of for 3ABN.

[watchbird]

I wrote earlier...(watchbird @ Sep 20 2007, 11:46 PM)
And yes, I agree with Fallible to this extent.... this IS something that should be studied and understood by every Adventist who wishes to escape the deceptions of the last days.... for how can one recognize something in disguise unless one understands it when it is openly proclaiming itself. There IS a time to study and understand false doctrine... for how can one recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing if one has no idea what a wolf looks like?

By knowing what a sheep looks like?

There are many different kinds of sheep, and not all look the same. It is a common pious misconception that one can know truth well enough to avoid all error by focusing solely on truth. That is simply not the way life works... particularly when there are those (both human and non-human) intelligences who work diligently to confuse truth with error... and even homogenize it so thoroughly it is nearly impossible to separate the two unless one knows BOTH the truth AND the error when seen in it's "native dress".

Once one knows the error, it stands out plainly... no matter where it is encountered or how well it is disguised, or how trusted is the spiritual leader or friend who presents it.

slightly off topic.... but within the thread.
I agree with you vastergotland. We need to keep our eyes on the sheep at all times.

Reminds me of the story of folk who learn how to spot a fake dollar bill. They don't study the fakes. They study the real thing very intensly that they know it so well that when they do see a fake they can spot it immediately and have no doubt in their minds that it is a fake.

Wolves can disguise themselves in many ways to make themselves appear to be a sheep but those who look at and study the sheep when they see the wolf in sheep's clothing they can spot the fake easily.

Ah yes.... "the story of..... " how to spot counterfeit money. It is one of the tragedies of life that there is no "urban legends" reference spot for time hallowed sermon illustrations. Unfortunately, this illustration simply does not fit into real life situations.... or at best is only half true... or maybe a quarter true.

In real life the situation is like this......

There are professional money handlers... and supervisors of money handlers.... who do indeed study the true bills very thoroughly until they can spot a fake bill instantaneously when one shows up. However the vast majority of people who handle money on a day to day basis are not "professionals" in the matter of judging the true from any counterfeit bill which might come along. And most merchants and money handlers depend on the professionals in the banks to catch.... and warn specifically against.... any counterfeit bills which pass through their hands.

When a counterfeit bill is encountered by the professonals, they do not keep the details to themselves.... they immediately photocopy the offending bill, circle the specific area of the bill that indicates most clearly the falsity of the bill, and distribute these to every teller in every bank, and to every cash register, or cash handler in town, with clear instructions as to how to tell that the bill is a fake.


A true story...... which illustrates how even the professionals can be tricked into not putting out the warnings....

The location.... Aspen, Colorado.... the date.... sometime in the 1980's, sorry I don't have the exact year handy.

Aspen, as probably most of you know, is a high style resort town. Cash flows freely and quickly, which makes it a mecca for those who wish to pass counterfeit money. At the time of the story, the five-dollar bill was the basic medium of exchange... and prices for many items... including lift tickets... was set at five dollars... no change made.... which also meant that change was copiously given in "fives" so as to expedite ticket lines, etc.

Counterfeiters most commonly counterfeit $20 dollar bills.... so those, or higher, are the ones most carefully watched. Printing $10s or $5s is hardly worth the effort.

But on a cold, crisp, sunny day in Aspen, when the fivers were flowing freely, an extra-alert bank teller spotted a counterfeit five dollar bill.

Normal "emergency measures" were begun immediately. The bill was enlarged. The significant identifiers were circled in red. And copies were sent to every cash handling location in town... including every high school student who collected fivers almost "on the fly". And piles of counterfeit bills soon began accumulating. After the first flurry of activity, the town settled down to normal....

But one of the bank presidents sat engrossed in thought. Suddenly he stood up, went to his own vault and started going through the accumulated stacks of $5 that were there. Again my memory for numbers prevents me from giving the actual number of counterfeit bills that he found... but I know the money value was into the thousands... and even into the tens of thousands of dollars.... all in counterfeit $5 bills.... the ones that no one had even thought to check as they slowly but steadily had slipped past the profesional "experts" and accumulated in his own bank vault.

Besides, I think a better illustration of our situation here is like looking at an apple tree with plenty of fruit. The question we are studying is wether there are maggots in the apples of not.

Not really, Thomas. The situation is more that of a grape vine.... in full clustered fruiting state... to which someone has cleverly attached snake eggs.... which resemble the ripened grapes in appearance, but are in fact not fruit of the Vine at all, but are of a whole different nature.

Yet of all the gifts of the Spirit available for the church, it seems as though the gift of discernment is the one least practiced and/or promoted... even by the "professionals" in the church.

[västergötland]

So, then someone should start to add evidence to the thread. I dont see any more good coming out of rehearsing what we would think and say if there was evidence for this or that. Lets move on to the meat of the matter.

[judibug60]

here is the thread that examines Word of Faith concepts....

http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6919

a review may be in order...

Thank you Clay for providing that review....It is very enlightening and would benefit everyone to read it......I think it clearly answers any questions about ones doubt about error being taught......and how it is being taught.... it only confirms my belief in Ms Quinns words when speaking due to her background training....Thank you again for providing that review......

[SoulEspresso]

In the context of our discussion there are two important tasks that must be acomplished in a literary analysis of another's work.

One will be to seek to determine the meaning of the considered word, as used by the author.

Another may be to determine the meaning of the word in the social context of the time in which it was written.

This I think is the most important thing that can be done in this discussion. We need someone who has Ms. Quinn's book to look up where in the book she makes her definitions, and to post them.

For the context of logos vs rhema in NT, it would be helpful to look through things in the Bible to see how each are used in their respective passages. It would take a while because they're common words, but ... if you want to know what the Bible teaches, you have to study the Bible.

Also really helpful, if anyone here has access to a seminary library, would be to look up the entries for these words in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Strong's is helpful but you want to be sure you have an updated version--the older ones had mistakes in them.

I'd like to do these things but getting Quinn's book would take four hours of driving and getting to a seminary library would take three ... can anyone else help? I'm also unable to use my computer more than a few hours per week ...

I'm withholding judgment on the teaching until I know more. My initial feelings are, what's been reported on these threads is disturbing ... but I want to hear it from the horse's mouth.

Soul