Latest On 3abn - Round 3, Kay Kuzma Response to L Shelton Story Options

[sonshineonme]

Judge not - least ye be judged.

So if you say that someone is "judgeing you" and they are not "judgeing you" by the law of GOD - would it then be safe to say that you not only have "judged them" by saying they "judged you" but you are also "lying on them" by stating that they "judged you"?



I'm jes saying.....

OK I NEEDED A LAUGH ABOUT NOW IN MY READING OF THIS THREAD! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!
(by the way, you did pretty good on getting that all out without losing your train of thought!)

[LadyTenor]

I ignore this thread for like a day and a half and it blows up into a few tangents...my head is spinning...WHEW!

Anyway...I have two points to make here.

Firstly, the word JUDGE, evidenced by Clay's post, has MORE THAN ONE MEANING, like many words in the English language. So when you are judging what someone says, you are not necessarily judging them in the context that the word is used in Matthew 7:1, for example. I have found that may Christians tout Matthew 7:1 to the point that the word is misused and to the point that it is forgotten that the word has more than one meaning. So when you judge somebody, it is not necessarily in the manner that is spoken of in Matthew 7:1.

Like Calvin said earlier, we judge people every day...we judge each other right here...some instances it might be the judging evidenced in Matthew 7:1, and others not. I have grown weary of seeing folks wave Matthew 7:1 when it is convenient and a majority of the time, that verse is being misused!

My second point is this. As to the type of business entity that 3ABN is, it is simple to find out. Look up the business records in the state of Illinois and see what type of entity the business is registered as. I can say off the cuff without researching 3ABN that unless it is a membership organization, which I don't think it is, it HAS NO CONSTITUENTS. Constituents would be members.

If it were a publicly traded corporation, then its constituents would be shareholders. I don't believe that 3ABN falls into either one of these categories. Therefore it does not have to answer to any constituents.

To answer the other questions about the structure of 3ABN and governing documents, one would have to look to its governing documents; for example, Articles of Incorporation, By-Laws, etc. If 3ABN is indeed incorporated, it, by law, HAD TO HAVE FILED Articles of Incorporation in the state that it chose to incorporate in. Articles of Incorporation, by the way, are a matter of public record and anyone can access them. Many states have these records online now; I don't know if Illinois is one of them...and I am assuming, for the sake of discussion, that 3ABN is incorporated in Illinois, though a corporation need not have headquarters in its state of incorporation.

As for any other documents that govern 3ABN, I cannot speak to them without having viewed them...and if it is not a publicly held company, these are not necessarily a matter of public record...

For those of you who either don't know me well or might be new to BlackSDA, I have a J.D. degree from Hofstra University School of Law in New York, so yes, I know the things of which I speak...

...having said all of that, I shall return to studying...I do have a bar exam to pass...and ironically, this topic, called "business entities", IS on the bar exam...

[Chez]

I ignore this thread for like a day and a half and it blows up into a few tangents...my head is spinning...WHEW!

Anyway...I have two points to make here.

Firstly, the word JUDGE, evidenced by Clay's post, has MORE THAN ONE MEANING, like many words in the English language. So when you are judging what someone says, you are not necessarily judging them in the context that the word is used in Matthew 7:1, for example. I have found that may Christians tout Matthew 7:1 to the point that the word is misused and to the point that it is forgotten that the word has more than one meaning. So when you judge somebody, it is not necessarily in the manner that is spoken of in Matthew 7:1.

Like Calvin said earlier, we judge people every day...we judge each other right here...some instances it might be the judging evidenced in Matthew 7:1, and others not. I have grown weary of seeing folks wave Matthew 7:1 when it is convenient and a majority of the time, that verse is being misused!

My second point is this. As to the type of business entity that 3ABN is, it is simple to find out. Look up the business records in the state of Illinois and see what type of entity the business is registered as. I can say off the cuff without researching 3ABN that unless it is a membership organization, which I don't think it is, it HAS NO CONSTITUENTS. Constituents would be members.

If it were a publicly traded corporation, then its constituents would be shareholders. I don't believe that 3ABN falls into either one of these categories. Therefore it does not have to answer to any constituents.

To answer the other questions about the structure of 3ABN and governing documents, one would have to look to its governing documents; for example, Articles of Incorporation, By-Laws, etc. If 3ABN is indeed incorporated, it, by law, HAD TO HAVE FILED Articles of Incorporation in the state that it chose to incorporate in. Articles of Incorporation, by the way, are a matter of public record and anyone can access them. Many states have these records online now; I don't know if Illinois is one of them...and I am assuming, for the sake of discussion, that 3ABN is incorporated in Illinois, though a corporation need not have headquarters in its state of incorporation.

As for any other documents that govern 3ABN, I cannot speak to them without having viewed them...and if it is not a publicly held company, these are not necessarily a matter of public record...

For those of you who either don't know me well or might be new to BlackSDA, I have a J.D. degree from Hofstra University School of Law in New York, so yes, I know the things of which I speak...

...having said all of that, I shall return to studying...I do have a bar exam to pass...and ironically, this topic, called "business entities", IS on the bar exam...

COOL!

[Clay]

if you are counting on christian contributors to wake up and stop contributing ummmmm we tend to be a gullible group and faithful in our giving despite the evidence screaming at us that its a sham..... when those asking for money mix in "The Lord would want" and some guilt, we will give indefinitely...

[Guest_statrei_*]

if you are counting on christian contributors to wake up and stop contributing ummmmm we tend to be a gullible group and faithful in our giving despite the evidence screaming at us that its a sham..... when those asking for money mix in "The Lord would want" and some guilt, we will give indefinitely...

By definition anybody who accepts truth by faith is gullible.

[Clay]

By definition anybody who accepts truth by faith is gullible.

where is that "can of worms" emoticon when you need it....

[summertime]

where is that "can of worms" emoticon when you need it....

3ABN has been so accepted by the leaders of the North American Union that the ministers of most Seventh Day Adventist churches are either afraid or personally relunctant to see Danny Shelton's guilt or the problems at 3ABN. I have talked to ministers and many of them tell me that they personally do not care for Danny Shelton but they are relunctant to defend Linda or to admit that things are a mess at 3ABN. So he makes a tour of churches where the grey haired contributors live and no one seems to be willing to challange his divorce and treatment of Linda since the divorce. So the contributors continue to contribute and because the truth has not really been made public, they fear the wrath of God if they do not continue to give. One member of the clergy, who spoke to me personally, feels that if God started 3ABN, then in no way should it be challenged. Personally, it has been a very discouraging thing to me--They tell me not to question the work that God has given Danny to do. Therefore they will not challange his personal behaviour. Somewhere the truth has to be told to destroy this sham. When our leaders feel that 3ABN can be used for their own endeavers, no matter the cost to so many, somebody needs to sit up and take notice. I have found BSDA willing to seek and speak the truth

[PrincessDrRe]

I am coming to the conclusion that Black SDA isn't a very friendly place to be. So sad!!!!

Have you even looked at another thread besides the "Days of Them Lives at 3ABN".... You have "judged" us wrongfully!

OK I NEEDED A LAUGH ABOUT NOW IN MY READING OF THIS THREAD! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!
(by the way, you did pretty good on getting that all out without losing your train of thought!)

...and if you notice - it didn't get answered.....
Mr. Fawcett? Did ya hear me?

[beartrap]

Hear, hear! BSDA isn't the place to go if you are just looking for "yes people." You will be challenged, questioned, laughed at, and laughed with. If you can take, and even learn to enjoy it, you will find that the folks on BSDA are real. I've noticed that folk who fear honest discussion end up disparaging, and fleeing from this site saying that it is too offensive.

[Panama_Pete]

One member of the clergy, who spoke to me personally, feels that if God started 3ABN, then in no way should it be challenged. Personally, it has been a very discouraging thing to me--They tell me not to question the work that God has given Danny to do. Therefore they will not challange his personal behaviour.

This organization is where many church employees get their paycheck, their health insurance, and their retirement benefits. This organization is how their children will get through college. They believe people watch 3ABN, join the church, and then start paying their 10 percent tithe to create a stronger organization that can, in return, support the in-house bureaucracy. These employees are in favor of ministries that will keep their organization from declining. They're not going to jeapordize their financial futures by sobbing over a few victims here and there. They try to keep their heads down and not become victims, themselves..

As you talk to church employees about 3ABN, you will meet them and you have to be prepared for some rather discouraging comments similar to those you have already received.

Church employees are aware that many mainline Protestant churches are in decline, and the advice being given to you, Summertime, is being given out of self-interest and fear, rather than a desire to actually promote injustice. Deep down, they are fully aware of your feelings, but they are not in a position to entertain them publicly

Five Denominations in Decline

"The Rev. James Vande Berg, head of Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)'s Hudson River Presbytery, expects that half his churches could close in 10 to 20 years. He foresees a day when several mainline congregations in the Hudson Valley will share church buildings and perhaps ministers. Other leaders are less frank but predict that churches that do not change — and soon — will die."

"Churches in decline often have no idea that they have any purpose other than to keep the church going," Vande Berg said. "We've put too much time and energy into keeping old wheels running, instead of seeing how people live and experience God. That's what it means to be faithful, and we've lost that."

The five denominations — the United Methodist Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the United Church of Christ — have been loath to close churches and sell off valuable real estate.


It's not just the five denominations mentioned here, Summertime, that are declining. Even the Southern Baptists are concerned. With Baptists, "Baptisms had increased in 2004 after a four-year decline, but the new figure for 2005 indicates that decreases are the longer-term trend. Here's the link for that.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...23/ai_n16462508

So, you will find many ministers supporting 3ABN out of fear, rather than veneration. The solution might be to support the other network, the Hope Channel. In other words, you give a Hope Channel party, and you don't invite the Sheltons (except Linda ).

[Clay]

good points Pete..... they will support 3abn as long as possible because it supports the status quo...

[watchbird]

where is that "can of worms" emoticon when you need it....

I'm missing not only a "can of worms" emoticon, but also one that sheds real tears which puddle around one's feet. But yes, the "can of worms" would be most appropriate for this topic.

I'm grouping three comments together here because I think there is some over-simplification going on in the areas of member-minister-"church" attitudes to these problems.

3ABN has been so accepted by the leaders of the North American Union that the ministers of most Seventh Day Adventist churches are either afraid or personally relunctant to see Danny Shelton's guilt or the problems at 3ABN. I have talked to ministers and many of them tell me that they personally do not care for Danny Shelton but they are relunctant to defend Linda or to admit that things are a mess at 3ABN. So he makes a tour of churches where the grey haired contributors live and no one seems to be willing to challange his divorce and treatment of Linda since the divorce. So the contributors continue to contribute and because the truth has not really been made public, they fear the wrath of God if they do not continue to give. One member of the clergy, who spoke to me personally, feels that if God started 3ABN, then in no way should it be challenged. Personally, it has been a very discouraging thing to me--They tell me not to question the work that God has given Danny to do. Therefore they will not challange his personal behaviour. Somewhere the truth has to be told to destroy this sham. When our leaders feel that 3ABN can be used for their own endeavers, no matter the cost to so many, somebody needs to sit up and take notice. I have found BSDA willing to seek and speak the truth.

I see the source of the attitude of this minister, and many others like him, somewhat differently.

In the beginning--that is two years ago when the first cracks in the 3ABN facade began to show up through Danny's abrupt and nasty treatment of Linda--the church leaders made an "official" decision to stay absolutely neutral and not make any statements. (This information came from different sources, some who "investigated" privately and commented confidentially, and from a leak of information about a "memo" that was circulated to conference offices.) But with this and with what others who would have been in line to get any directives had some been handed down have said, I am sure beyond any reasonable doubt that there has been no directives from conference sources that ministers can blame for their support of 3ABN. (I am, of course, excepting the Illinois conference who has obviously been carrying the torch for Danny all along.)

What then is the source of the "reluctance" of ministers to speak against 3ABN? I suggest three sources.

1) The obvious fact that the very prominent SDA evangelists on 3ABN, especially Mark Finley and Doug Batchelor, support Danny and his accusations against Linda.

2) The fact that the church members who watch 3ABN are enthralled with it, and they put pressure upon the pastor if he says anything contrary to what they hear on 3ABN.

3) The fact that ASI strongly supports 3ABN, and in right wing circles, what ASI says is what "goes". In any perceived conflict between ASI and GC, ASI is considered in the same league as God and EGW and the GC is considered in the same league as "apostate protestantism" and the "papacy"--or worse.

This organization is where many church employees get their paycheck, their health insurance, and their retirement benefits. This organization is how their children will get through college. They believe people watch 3ABN, join the church, and then start paying their 10 percent tithe to create a stronger organization that can, in return, support the in-house bureaucracy. These employees are in favor of ministries that will keep their organization from declining. They're not going to jeapordize their financial futures by sobbing over a few victims here and there. They try to keep their heads down and not become victims, themselves..

As you talk to church employees about 3ABN, you will meet them and you have to be prepared for some rather discouraging comments similar to those you have already received. . . . .

So, you will find many ministers supporting 3ABN out of fear, rather than veneration. The solution might be to support the other network, the Hope Channel. In other words, you give a Hope Channel party, and you don't invite the Sheltons (except Linda ).

While there are exceptions (as I mentioned above, the Illinois Conference), I do not find what you describe to be true across the board. What I mainly find is that those who watch 3ABN the most are disproportionately from the less educated classes. And for those who get their main flow of information from 3ABN, there is no doubt but what they will believe what is said on 3ABN and they will put pressure on others to believe the same way. But those who are more educated are much less likely to be fans of 3ABN, and the usual attitude that they exhibit is first and foremost apathy born of ignorance as to what is going on. This sometimes changes when they become informed.

good points Pete..... they will support 3abn as long as possible because it supports the status quo...

Not sure who you mean by "they", but assuming it is the Conference brethren, this is certainly true of ones like Mark Finley and Doug Batchelor who see only their own "status" and don't care what else happens just so long as they get their "air-time". But thy manage this attitude mainly by remaining willfully ignorant, IMO.

As for other Conference people, there is a growing number who realize that 3ABN does NOT "support the status quo", in fact quite the opposite, as it seeks tithes and offerings and teaches their converts to depend on them rather than on the Conference churches. And there are conferences, not all in the United States, who have taken formal action that 3ABN is NOT to be promoted in their territory. This is, however, something that they have to do carefully so as to not precipitate a rebellion within their conference of those who are staunch 3ABN supporters. There is also fear at the top that if they were to openly oppose 3ABN it would cause a rift--even a schism--between ASI and General Conference.

So yes, many of the responses one gets are fear driven. but that fear is more likely to be fear of the multitude "in the pew" than it is from the hiring church organization.