Ministry Or Business, When does ministry stop being ministry? Options

[Richard Sherwin]

I think you have hit the nail on the head (not that kids these days know how to do that)

Unfortunately our schools no longer place much importance in serving the students financial needs. They mostly care about the schools needs and it's so much easier for the schools to ask the kids, and their families to run up astronomical debts than it is to provide any significant employment for them. Not only that but the class schedules are such that it's hard for the kids to work any kind of steady job off campus. (I have two kids at Andrew's, one wishing to be a pastor, thus my interest in this subject). Our schools are too lazy and professors aren't willing to work for wages that allow tuition costs to be lowered. I'm not knocking the teachers for this so much as I'm knocking the church for departing from the blueprints laid down for our schools.

If we start thinking about doing things the way we used to, and/or the way we were told to, perhaps fewer students would have so much debt when they get out.

Avondale College had the benefit of Ellen White's presence when it started, so maybe it got set up at the beginning to operate closer to the blueprint than it would have otherwise. Read this, and notice the bolded larger text aways down:

[Richard Sherwin]

When my parents were at Andrews, then EMC, back in the late 30's they both were able to work their way through (in on campus jobs)with no debt, taking full load classes. Though an aunt did pay for their entrance fees.

Found the other one I wanted. This one is pretty neat:
What would it be like today if 90% of the students attending our colleges were able to pay either 50% or 100% of their school fees by working?

"Owe no man anything but to love one another."

This post has been edited by Richard Sherwin: Nov 30 2007, 08:55 PM

[Richard Sherwin]

goofed

This post has been edited by Richard Sherwin: Nov 30 2007, 08:55 PM

[Pickle]

Well, Richard, how much does an Adventist school have to depart from Adventist principles before it could become a target of a trademark lawsuit, claiming to be Adventist when it really isn't?

I have wondered if tuition refunds would be in order if an Adventist school did not deliver an Adventist education.

Radical thoughts, kind of like Jesus saying it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Gets attention and sticks in the mind. But A. T. Jones sometimes went too far in doing that.

Would it not be a blessing to the cause and the church if there was a general movement here and there back to the blueprint in this and in other lines?

You mentioned EMC in the 30's. Sutherland's influence must have had something to do with that I would think.

[Observer]

Our schools are too lazy and professors aren't willing to work for wages that allow tuition costs to be lowered. I'm not knocking the teachers for this so much as I'm knocking the church for departing from the blueprints laid down for our schools.

I hardly think that the coswt of Adventist education, on the college level can be laid on the income recieved by the professors who teach. The costs of education have gone far beyond that.

Take a look at what it costs to build the infrastructure needed by a college today. The capital investmenet is huge.

Contrary to what some peple may think, buildings, even commercial ones, do not last forever. With the passage of time, they must be replaced. I work in a hospital (I know it is not a college.) that is approaching 50 years of age in some of its buildings. We spend a lot on maintance. Typically we will have some rupture of pipes during the Winter season, and flooding will occur. I am have begun my 14th year of employment here. During that time, I have had one major flood, and two minor ones.

As a result of the age of the buildings, we have begun the extensive process that will put us in a new hospital.

This process is going to be a long and expensive one. We will have to meet new code requirements that were nto in effect when we first built where we now are. Our needs have changed. Fifty years ago, we did not need to plan to care for females. Today, we have to plan for women. Today there is seldom a day when we do not have female inpatients (plural) in our hospital. When I first began employment here, we would often go for some time with no women inpatients, outside of our nursing home. This raises privacy issues, and more. We have to plan for the future. In addition, we will have to meet new standards for the medical care that we provide.

When land aquistion is added to the total cost of our new hospital, we will probably spend 600 milion dollars to build and equip. The clinical areas of our hospital will likely cost us about $450 dollars a square foot, while the administrative areas may run about $100 dollars a square foot.

I am well ware that it does not cost as much to build and equip a college as it does to build a hospital. But, it is still very expensive. College science classes need laboratories and modern state of the art equipment. I have a son at Walla Walla. His engineering labs use costly equipment and space.

Andrews has been mentioned. Andrews has a requirement that new building not be built until funds are in hand to maintain the building after it is built. That makes good business sense. At Andrews, fund raising for new buildings includes raising funds to maintain it. That has typically not been done by our colleges. The result is that often critical maintaince has been postponed, or not performed. While this has reduced short-term expenses, it has been costly in the long run.

Wages for college employees has been mentioned. I graduated from Pacific Union College. The cost to purchase a home in the PUC area is beyond what many new employees can pay. PUC is considering at this, and attempting to plan for the future. In its planning it is selling off (Leasing?) land it owns in a attempt to help out in this area. THis raises issues. But, what can be done.

Denominational employees live in society today. They cannot be expected to obtain their transportation by horseback. They must purchse automobiles. Whe they buy an automobile they do do at current costs in society. The same goes for everything else that they purchase. I remember when I could buy five (5) loaves of bread from the school bakery for one dollar! Try doing that today. I remember when I purchased my first new automobile for about $8,000 dollars. I certainly do not do such today. While my son was in High School we needed to own two cars in order to get me to work, and him to the local Adventit high school. At that time I drove two ten (10) year old vehicles. One by one they gave out, and I had to replace them. We drove the one until we experience total failure. We had to tow it to get rid of it. Today, due to the price of gasoline, and the distances we were driving, I drive two (2) Honda Civic Hybrids. The savings on gasoline, over the two vehicles that we previously drove that were 10 years old pays a good part of the payment on one of the vehicles. Interestingly enough, the cost to insure those vehicles went down on one of them, probably due to the increased safety built into the Hondas.

My point: Folks, denominational employees live in society. They have to generally pay the same costs to live as the rest of society. They can only do that as the recieve wages sufficient to pay such.

I am aware of some independent organizations (who claim to be associated with the SDA church) that pay their employees at a rate that qualifies them for government welfare. That is intended by those organizations. They intend for government welfare to supplement their pay scale. I believe that this is morally wrong. The person who works for an organization is entitled to pay sufficient to live in society. I did not say at the high end of society. They do not have to live in a mansion. I do not live in a $750,000 home. But, in San Francisco there are appartments of less than 1,000 square feet that sell for that. In order to live in a home that I can afford, I live 40 miles from where I work. To do such I have to have reliable transportation, winter (Snow) and summer.

SDA pastors, teachers, and other employees deserve a living wage that is sufficient for the society in which they live. It is morally irresponsible to p[ay them less.


Well, I am going to get off of my soap box for now.

[Pickle]

Great points, Gregory. We need not return to the days before "Sister Betsy," systematic benevolence, was instituted in order to provide some sort of adequate compensation to our workers.

On the other hand, as you've said, "They do not have to live in a mansion." So there is to be a balance.

[Pickle]

"Our brethren should never have built so largely in one place as they have in Battle Creek. In many fields very little has been done to establish memorials for God. This is wrong. Years ago very many of our workers and people had the spirit of self-denial and self-sacrifice. Success attended their efforts. The Lord has signified that His work should be carried forward in the same spirit in which it was begun. The world is to be warned." (KC 72, 73)

While workers should be compensated adequately, we all should also maintain a spirit of self-denial and self-sacrifice.

[Pickle]

Forgot to add this part that I found around the last quote from KC (Kress Collection):

"We have come to a time when God has been greatly dishonored. Those who have long known our belief, and what we teach, have been surprised by the statement that the Battle Creek Sanitarium is not denominational. No one has a right to make this statement. It does not bear the witness that God wishes His people to bear before men, and angels. In the name of the Lord we are to identify ourselves as Seventh-day Adventists. If any one among us is ashamed of our colors, and wishes to stand under another banner, let him do so as a private individual, not as a representative of Seventh-day Adventist medical missionary work." (KC 74)

Looks like that was written in 1902.

Sound familiar? Ever catch 3ABN claiming the same? Such as in the lawsuit?

There are a number of parallels between the Kellogg crisis and the scandals surrounding Danny Shelton. Here's another possible one:

"The night interviews held by the leader in this work are one of his most effective means of gaining his point. His constant stream of talk confuses the minds of those he is seeking to influence. He mistakes and misquotes words, and places those who argue with him in so false a light that their powers of discernment are benumbed. He takes their words, and gives them an impress which makes them seem to mean exactly the opposite of what they said." (SpTB06 42)

While some would deny that Danny's talk has all the same results that Kellogg's did as described above, and perhaps rightly so, I would question whether anyone would deny that Danny can put up as good a stream of talk as Kellogg or anyone else.

PCL 331 goes so far as to say that Kellogg used "hypnotic influence upon souls to deceive them." I guess that's referring to Kellogg's stream of talk confusing the mind. She also said in the same paragraph that "Those who sustain him in his course are guilty with him of resisting the Spirit of God. Such blindness of understanding seems strange in one who has known the truth for this time."

We need to look for lessons in this whole saga, and in the Kellogg crisis, that we can take with us, in order to be better prepared for the deceptions we shall yet have to meet before Christ returns. We do need to beware of hypnotic influences, and of putting too much confidence in any man.

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help." (Ps. 146:3)

[Johann]

How about getting back to the subject: What is a ministry? Can you call a private business business a ministry because it tags some fine names to its trademark? When it sues others for wanting it to urge it to follow the blueprint? To what degree is this the issue?